What to do about schools

[JakeStarkey]

The major problem with private schools in the elementary and secondary levels is that they will (1) teach to Student Learning Outcomes instead of higher skills and knowledge, and (2) will put profit before educational excellence.

And what exactly are the unions doing? Putting profit (benefits/job security/money) before excellence.

This argument has a track record of fail. Before public schools were the norm, all schools were private and had a very solid track record of success. Why? Because they didn't bother wasting time on those who did not desire to learn. Maybe there's an idea... end truancy laws. No... the problems that produces are worse. But then creating a school of last resort is in order.

You have not made your point. Privatization is worse than no cure.

 

[Samson]

The major problem with private schools in the elementary and secondary levels is that they will (1) teach to Student Learning Outcomes instead of higher skills and knowledge, and (2) will put profit before educational excellence.

And what exactly are the unions doing? Putting profit (benefits/job security/money) before excellence.

This argument has a track record of fail. Before public schools were the norm, all schools were private and had a very solid track record of success. Why? Because they didn't bother wasting time on those who did not desire to learn. Maybe there's an idea... end truancy laws. No... the problems that produces are worse. But then creating a school of last resort is in order.

You have not made your point. Privatization is worse than no cure.

How would privatization work?

I'm not saying it CANNOT work, because it has, but only on very small scale (one room, rural schoolhouses we're built by cooperatives of local farmers, and a teacher was hired).

There are also already Private Schools.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And what exactly are the unions doing? Putting profit (benefits/job security/money) before excellence.

This argument has a track record of fail. Before public schools were the norm, all schools were private and had a very solid track record of success. Why? Because they didn't bother wasting time on those who did not desire to learn. Maybe there's an idea... end truancy laws. No... the problems that produces are worse. But then creating a school of last resort is in order.

You have not made your point. Privatization is worse than no cure.

How would privatization work?

I'm not saying it CANNOT work, because it has, but only on very small scale (one room, rural schoolhouses we're built by cooperatives of local farmers, and a teacher was hired).

There are also already Private Schools.

The normal problem, I would thinki, would be the emphasis on profit, not service.

 

[Samson]

You have not made your point. Privatization is worse than no cure.

How would privatization work?

I'm not saying it CANNOT work, because it has, but only on very small scale (one room, rural schoolhouses we're built by cooperatives of local farmers, and a teacher was hired).

There are also already Private Schools.

The normal problem, I would thinki, would be the emphasis on profit, not service.

Worse service?

Yes, In many school systems this could be a problem, but not in all.

 

[Big Fitz]

The major problem with private schools in the elementary and secondary levels is that they will (1) teach to Student Learning Outcomes instead of higher skills and knowledge, and (2) will put profit before educational excellence.

And what exactly are the unions doing? Putting profit (benefits/job security/money) before excellence.

This argument has a track record of fail. Before public schools were the norm, all schools were private and had a very solid track record of success. Why? Because they didn't bother wasting time on those who did not desire to learn. Maybe there's an idea... end truancy laws. No... the problems that produces are worse. But then creating a school of last resort is in order.

You have not made your point. Privatization is worse than no cure.

No. You are making some very incorrect presuppositions that make me believe you have a conflict of interest in any change in the status quo.

The assumptions that I see is that you equate profit to evil and all businessmen are unethical. You are also ignoring RATIONAL regulations and the discipline demanded by a true open market.

If you allow multiple private education management companies able to compete freely, and not under the same stupid auspices of the HMO system, profit is directly threatened by poor performance. All I have to do is look at other contractors to see this is fact. Take bus companies even. In the Twin Cities, almost every municipality has it's own buses, but there is also room for over 15 private companies. They bid against each other for short term 1-3 year contracts. Quality of service and thrift are taken into account. If the companies in a school do not perform, they are not given the contract again, OR they can be fired and a new contract bid opens up. And let me tell you, the managers live and die by their contracts because they are NOT guaranteed.

Then there's the liberal meme that all the private sector solutions are greedy selfish evil bastards looking to steal from the poor and downtrodden innocents, abuse their employees and defraud the innocent government. Would you, if given the same position treat people this way as a for profit company? No, I doubt it... unless you're projecting because you would.

You just have to take a look at the success that is near universal to charter schools to understand that private solutions are far outstripping the public schools. And that's not even looking at the generalized triumph of homeschooling for quality and economy of education.

But this is just the fundamental truths about what good privatization can do for education.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Stop the looniness, BigFitz.

Profit per se is not evil, and neither is government service. But when a profit-driven business tries to perform an outright government service that dollars and sense cannot adequately measure, the a recipe for disaster is created.

Examples. Closing of asylums and sanitariums for mental health patient outsourcing. Closing of orphanages for foster care. Closing of public assisted living facilities in favor of for-profit care. The issues then becomes obvious: the weakest, sickest, most defenseless of our citizens are at the mercy of those who make a profit from them.

Nah, BigFitz, you only condemn privatization because you ignore the reality that profit is driven by greed, not concern for orphans, elderly, or the mentally ill.

For shame, bucko.

 

[Unkotare]

A friend of mine did Peace Corps in Kenya. (His soon to be wife went to Thailand) He taught math. It was his favorite two years. The kids were committed and attentive and really enthusiastic. They came to school neat and polite and dedicated. This dispute the fact that for many of them it really was a five mile hike, uphill both ways. (Given the state of Kenyan roads in the early 80s)

He was so enthused that he applied to be a teacher in SC (Where his wife lived).

He burnt out after 1 year, but kept working for two more.

Nobody in the school seemed to care. Not the other teachers, not the administration, and least of all the students. He had to get stitches one time trying to stop a fight between two girls who were drunk at 10:30.

Education in public schools seems to be the most angry and militant of the unions. This despite tenure, despite wages that start in the low 40s, pensions that allow for early retirement and despite long vacations. (Oregon schoolkids are only in class 175 days a year.)

In Kenya, schoolbooks were shared, resources were limited, but everyone was on the same page and the kids did really well. And discipline while draconian, was universally accepted as necessary for learning.

Here in Oregon it costs 12,000 per kid per year to produce marginal results.

Nationally, we have dangerous schools, little learning, and high expenses.

Maybe we should just privatize the whole system. We pay private schools 11,000 per head. We test twice a year (Independent proctors) and if the school actually produces a result, they get a 2000 bonus, and if they produce a really positive result, a bigger bonus.

Or it might be better to run the schools the way the pentagon runs a bomber program. Our bombers and submarines work real well. Our schools, don't.

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