Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

What say you?

  • Reformation

    Votes: 6 15.8%
  • Hard time

    Votes: 7 18.4%
  • A mix of both

    Votes: 17 44.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 21.1%

  • Total voters
    38

Parker99

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Messages
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21
You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the life-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.
First off, we do have a multi-generational criminal sub-culture in this country and if you're going to pretend we don't, then I don't think we're going to be able to productively discuss this. I'm talking about sub-cultures not the entire culture, okay?

Those immigrants you talk about for the most part don't come from a culture that has been on welfare for 3 or 4 generations. They may be from a different culture but some of those cultures do value personal responsibility, hard work, and frugality, and some just plain don't.
Not all cultures are equal; some are just simply better than others.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?
Not sure how, but I was under the impression you were arguing the opposite of all that.

Yes, I agree with most of that.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?

Well you don't need an example to follow.

Where do you learn it from?

Proverbs 16:26
"The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need an example.

Now don't get me wrong.... obliviously.... OBVIOUSLY... if you have a good example of a work ethic growing up, you'll do better. No question.

But you don't 'need' to have a good example. All you need is to be hungry, and have no other option but to work.

Cut welfare. Throw criminals in prison, or kill them.

When you look around and there is no free lunch anymore, and crime is a bad option because you go to prison for life.....

You'll work. You don't need an example. You'll be hungry, and do what you need to do, to earn some bread.

You realize that this is actually one of the earliest lessons, that was learned from the American colonies?

When they first established a colony, all the food was in a collective, and distributed equally to people. Well the result was, no one wanted to work. No one wanted to plant crops. No one wanted to labor. People were lazy, and complaining their back hurt, and their leg was injured.

The colony faced starvation. So the leadership of the colony decided to divide up the land to all the colonists, and everyone was to own the responsibility of feeding themselves. No more free food.

Shockingly, all the men that were 'sick' magically got up and worked. The people with injured legs, hobbled out into the fields, and started planting. Women and children both, which prior to this was considered taboo to have women and children working the fields... all went out to fields and started working the ground.

The Bible is right: "The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need a good model. Yes a good model helps. No question. But people need, is no being fed for free... no more welfare, no more food stamps. And they need society to teach them through law enforcement, that crime is not an option.

Instead, we're doing the exact opposite, and the results are predictable.

Now I agree with you COMPLETELY... that culture matters. Like I mentioned in the other post, my father when he found I had shop lifted a game, that I already owned... he would have tossed me in Juvie. That black 'mother' (not sure how you can be a mother and openly promote theft), was teaching her kids that stealing was perfectly fine if you were not caught.

This is why prisons are so important. We need to make it clear that you will get caught. We need more enforcement. More policing. More tough laws on crime. More criminals executed or tossed in prison.

We need to make it so that, that black mother would NEVER encourage crime, because she knew it would get people in prison or executed.

I watched a 60 minutes years ago, specifically about people who intentionally committed crime, just to get back into prison. If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong.
"If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong."

Some of the loudest people in the country are demanding government provide free housing, free medical care, free education including college, food stamps (EBT or SNAP or whatever), and almost no guns anywhere.

Some others want to build a wall around it.


What does all of that sound like to you?
Not sure what you mean by people wanting to go to prison for free food, free education and place to stay.

If that was the case homeless people would do crime to get of the cold winter days in far north to get free food and warm prison cell.
I'm just saying it does happen, and fairly routinely. I mean, 60 minutes did a documentary on this. I watched. They talked with people who intentionally committed armed robbery... specifically... to get tossed into prison.

Now as far as the homeless... very very few of the "Homeless" are actually homeless. Most are people who have made being homeless, into a career.


This is normal. Here in Ohio, the local TV station had a reporter track a number of "homeless beggars" and all of them walked blocks away from where they were begging, climbed into a car, and drove to someplace of residence.

The few true real homeless people, are usually people with mental illness. Ironically this is tied to drug use, which the left-wing supports.

But beggars make pretty darn good money. Between $15, and $30 bucks an hour. This is why if you ever watch the guys with the cups... they don't leave the cash in the cups. Watch them. I have. You drop a $5, $10, or $20 in the cup.... they'll wait until you are around the corner, out of view, and quickly slip the money into usually a back pack. Not in their pocket, because you would notice the bulge in their pocket from all the cash. Plus they sometimes are robbed too. So you often see them with backpacks.

But back to the prisons.


The Social Order of the Underworld: How Prison Gangs Govern the American Penal System

Amazing little book about how people in prison gangs, write letters to gangs in other prisons. Make connections between prisons. Even plan out people getting back into prison. It's a fascinating insight into how the system works.

But the point here is that this is all planned out. They know who is getting out when, plan for them to meet up with other people, and have letters of references... kind of like references for a job interview, except they write each other talking about this guy is good for these things, he really good a such-and-such activity, and he'll be like this in prison, and can get smuggled drugs or whatever.

So people openly go back into prison to be with their gangs. This is a real thing.
Well the difference between west coast and Midwest is apples and oranges. If you hit the Midwest and south it is dirt cheap so you can get all those really small meth houses or meth trailer parks.The difference between west coast because of all those Mexicans coming to the US and no housing so those cities on the west coast are really costly now and the meth users and white trash are on the street where in the midwest and south they can buy cheap home or trailer park.

The Appalachian mountains have a lot of pill poppers and meth users but they not homeless because it is dirt cheap to live there.

Also poor down out white people and drug addicts normally steal ,shoplift, theft, fraud or ask people for money well black people rob and shoot people and sadly is violence and hood problem wanting to be gangsters among the black people.

The hip hop and rap music are full of this gangsters are cool and the rappers and hip hop not speaking anti gangsters.

Those cities are going get so costly by year 2050 that not even teacher or nurse will be able to buy home. And all middle class yes even upper middle class will be renting.

The people in the lower class will be on the street or living in rooming houses.

It is media, government and wall street that is lying there is middle class The middle class died in late 80s.

The only way to fix this is stop all immigration. If white people are not having enough kids and the population is going down than only bring in immigration to replace them. The US population should not be going up.

If you want lots and lots of immigration than do away with environment laws and start building homes and cities to lower housing cost. They don’t want city sprawl but want lots and lots of people all over the world moving to those cities. You can’t have it both ways.
 

Parker99

Member
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
89
Reaction score
11
Points
21
You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
Not sure what you mean by lack of life skills and training to survive out side prison and life of crime.
What are some of the things you need to do to get and keep a job?
You need to look presentable for the workplace environment, and you need to show up on time. If you never saw anyone do that growing up, then these are not traits that you place any value in.

So you go to work in inappropriate clothing because you don't understand why you shouldn't.
And you're late, again because you don't get why it matters.

This behavior must be learned, and employers aren't going to waste time with people who don't already know this and live by it.
People who have mental illness or lack of work motivation are going to have hard time. I know two people that have hard time keeping a job and they just go from job to job all low paying job.

They are not homeless just poor and go from job to job and yes many times come to work late or miss work a lot.
 

Parker99

Member
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
89
Reaction score
11
Points
21
You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the life-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.
First off, we do have a multi-generational criminal sub-culture in this country and if you're going to pretend we don't, then I don't think we're going to be able to productively discuss this. I'm talking about sub-cultures not the entire culture, okay?

Those immigrants you talk about for the most part don't come from a culture that has been on welfare for 3 or 4 generations. They may be from a different culture but some of those cultures do value personal responsibility, hard work, and frugality, and some just plain don't.
Not all cultures are equal; some are just simply better than others.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?
Not sure how, but I was under the impression you were arguing the opposite of all that.

Yes, I agree with most of that.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?

Well you don't need an example to follow.

Where do you learn it from?

Proverbs 16:26
"The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need an example.

Now don't get me wrong.... obliviously.... OBVIOUSLY... if you have a good example of a work ethic growing up, you'll do better. No question.

But you don't 'need' to have a good example. All you need is to be hungry, and have no other option but to work.

Cut welfare. Throw criminals in prison, or kill them.

When you look around and there is no free lunch anymore, and crime is a bad option because you go to prison for life.....

You'll work. You don't need an example. You'll be hungry, and do what you need to do, to earn some bread.

You realize that this is actually one of the earliest lessons, that was learned from the American colonies?

When they first established a colony, all the food was in a collective, and distributed equally to people. Well the result was, no one wanted to work. No one wanted to plant crops. No one wanted to labor. People were lazy, and complaining their back hurt, and their leg was injured.

The colony faced starvation. So the leadership of the colony decided to divide up the land to all the colonists, and everyone was to own the responsibility of feeding themselves. No more free food.

Shockingly, all the men that were 'sick' magically got up and worked. The people with injured legs, hobbled out into the fields, and started planting. Women and children both, which prior to this was considered taboo to have women and children working the fields... all went out to fields and started working the ground.

The Bible is right: "The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need a good model. Yes a good model helps. No question. But people need, is no being fed for free... no more welfare, no more food stamps. And they need society to teach them through law enforcement, that crime is not an option.

Instead, we're doing the exact opposite, and the results are predictable.

Now I agree with you COMPLETELY... that culture matters. Like I mentioned in the other post, my father when he found I had shop lifted a game, that I already owned... he would have tossed me in Juvie. That black 'mother' (not sure how you can be a mother and openly promote theft), was teaching her kids that stealing was perfectly fine if you were not caught.

This is why prisons are so important. We need to make it clear that you will get caught. We need more enforcement. More policing. More tough laws on crime. More criminals executed or tossed in prison.

We need to make it so that, that black mother would NEVER encourage crime, because she knew it would get people in prison or executed.

I watched a 60 minutes years ago, specifically about people who intentionally committed crime, just to get back into prison. If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong.
"If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong."

Some of the loudest people in the country are demanding government provide free housing, free medical care, free education including college, food stamps (EBT or SNAP or whatever), and almost no guns anywhere.

Some others want to build a wall around it.


What does all of that sound like to you?
Not sure what you mean by people wanting to go to prison for free food, free education and place to stay.

If that was the case homeless people would do crime to get of the cold winter days in far north to get free food and warm prison cell.
They do.
They also claim to be suicidal when they're contacted on the street by police because that results in an automatic EDO (emergency detention order) and the cops bring them to the ER. And we, by law, have to assess them and determine if they are actually mental, high as fuck, or just faking for a warm bed and a meal. And when we determine they're faking, they are discharged and they are often upset about that, like the guy night before last.....
He refused to leave so the nurse got me to deal with him and when he swung on me, I put his head into the wall..... he decided to leave after that. He cussed me and talked shit the whole way out the door and down the street, but he did it walking.
Another member of the staff said he was pissed about losing his bed, but he was probably also embarrassed at being manhandled and punked out by an old white guy. He said, "You took his manhood from him."
And I think he was probably right about that.
First of all being in the hospital being depressed is the worst thing.

Doctors are not going to make you happy! no they are not!!! Only you can make your self happy.

People that work, have hobbies and have friends and do the things everyone else does will make you happy.

Again doctors will not make you happy and antidepressants are not going to make you happy.

The reason doctors don’t say this is the big pharma give lots and lots of money to the government and fly small number of doctors around to do talks that every one yes every human on earth by the DSM book needs to be on meds and have mental illness.

Those Asian countries don’t have this mental illness problem like the US does. the mental illness problem is among people don’t do the conventional norms like everyone else does in society.

What doctors need to do is not give them meds is give them jobs, give them hobbies and when they do that and make friends than they will start to be happy.

It funny how Hitler and Stalin give jobs to people and the US government or doctors cannot. Get a job cleaning garbage of the street, planting trees, work at car wash, painting a fence, planting garden or work at fast food place so on.

Do that and take up hobbies and when you do that and make friends you start to feel better.

This ugly DSM book should be put in the trash. The reason for mental illness is people living life alone and not working and lack of hobbies and interaction with people.

In the old days people where in family groups and many people in house holds with 5 people in house or more and family functions where very much a thing.

Now there is no family and people are on there own and people feel sad and the lack of working and along with no hobbies well make it worse.

How do you make friends by going to school and working and not sitting at home.

Now if you really want to kill you self. Here is the thing.

In the old days you could do that. Why? no Government.

Yes no government!!

In old days the Government deal with war and immigration only and now they deal with million things.
 
Last edited:

Parker99

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You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?
Not sure what you mean by white culture? and they need to be saved?
I put it in quotes because it’s not actually a thing, but I was referring to the dominate cultural norms our society live by. It is a trap many well-meaning, usually upper-middle class, usually well educated liberal professional fall into. They are going to “save“ the poor under-educated, and under-represented. The problem with this is that it presupposes the need for white folk to drive change among other groups.
These people need to work.If they can’t find work this is some thing welfare office should help find job for them. If the welfare office cannot find jobs than at this point the economy is really having problems.

I don’t think you mean white culture should be buying them car and house.Or giving them money for year. Unless you mean white culture vs hood culture?

And poverty and being gangster is two different things. There no reason for violent offenders this is lack of control.
 

Parker99

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Messages
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You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?
Not sure what you mean by white culture? and they need to be saved?
I put it in quotes because it’s not actually a thing, but I was referring to the dominate cultural norms our society live by. It is a trap many well-meaning, usually upper-middle class, usually well educated liberal professional fall into. They are going to “save“ the poor under-educated, and under-represented. The problem with this is that it presupposes the need for white folk to drive change among other groups.
Free will means you make the choice and no one made the choice for you.

If you parents rape you are you going to rape people? not all people that get rape go around and rape other people.

If you mom and dad beat you up as kid many times are you going to beat up your kids? not all people that get beat up as kid will beat people up when they have kids.

If see lots of violence and people fighting are you going to fight and do violence? Not all people do this.

Just like not all poor people steal.

So where is free will? How do you measure free will.

Not everyone that plays violent video games and see violent movies do violence.

So how do you measure free will.

Are these people just weak?

And just because you poor or in the hood does not give you the okay to shoot people or stab people or get in fights with people or do robbery.

May be you should not be into Rap or hip hop And the gangsta stuff.
 

Andylusion

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You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
Not sure what you mean by lack of life skills and training to survive out side prison and life of crime.
What are some of the things you need to do to get and keep a job?
You need to look presentable for the workplace environment, and you need to show up on time. If you never saw anyone do that growing up, then these are not traits that you place any value in.

So you go to work in inappropriate clothing because you don't understand why you shouldn't.
And you're late, again because you don't get why it matters.

This behavior must be learned, and employers aren't going to waste time with people who don't already know this and live by it.
Not true. You know how I found out that showing up on time was important? It wasn't because of my family.

G-d bless my parents, but being on time was never a thing with my family.

I learned to show up on time, when I saw people less qualified than me, get promoted over me, because they showed up on time.

That is exactly how I learned. Because I was terrible about being on time, and now I'm usually one of the first people into the office, and last one to leave.

That said... this is why entry level jobs are so important, and why we need to not have minimum wage laws.

You mentioned that employers are not going to waste time on people who don't already know this? Not exactly true. Good jobs, correct. But entry level jobs? No, actually I've seen many employers work with employees to explain how they need to dress and act to remain employed.

Now obviously, if you have 30 applicants for every position.. then no employers are simply going to dumb the guy with his pants down below his butt, and replace him with the guy with a collared shirt and belt on.

But for entry level jobs, I have routinely seen managers saying "You need to do like this, or when review time comes up, you won't get a raise".

Or some other motivational speech.

Again this is why entry level jobs are vital, and why minimum wage laws are horrible.

You literally are cutting off the bottom rung of the ladder. Without those jobs, no one is going to hire a person lacking those basic skills, and thus they never get those skills, and thus they never move up the ladder to better jobs.
 

Andylusion

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You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?
Not sure what you mean by white culture? and they need to be saved?
I put it in quotes because it’s not actually a thing, but I was referring to the dominate cultural norms our society live by. It is a trap many well-meaning, usually upper-middle class, usually well educated liberal professional fall into. They are going to “save“ the poor under-educated, and under-represented. The problem with this is that it presupposes the need for white folk to drive change among other groups.
These people need to work.If they can’t find work this is some thing welfare office should help find job for them. If the welfare office cannot find jobs than at this point the economy is really having problems.

I don’t think you mean white culture should be buying them car and house.Or giving them money for year. Unless you mean white culture vs hood culture?

And poverty and being gangster is two different things. There no reason for violent offenders this is lack of control.
Yeah.... except you fail to understand that people in government have their own motivations.


This video is over 14 minutes, and she takes her sweet time getting to the point.

Here's the summery. The welfare office encouraged her to divorce her husband, so that they could qualify for more welfare benefits.

Then when her and her husband got their business going, she went to close out her welfare benefits.

Not only did the welfare office try and talk her out of it, but even after she left, the account was still open, and still distributing money to her. She had to practically fight them, to make them stop giving her welfare benefits.

Now why would the welfare office do everything in their power, to keep the account open, and give out as much money as possible? Even when the people getting the money, openly say they don't need, nor want the money?

Allow me to explain.... because it is really really simple....

How does any government agency lobby government for more money?

By running out of money. By using up all the money. That is how you say to the politicians "See? We need more cash!"

What happens to a government agency that does not use up their budget?

Their budget is cut. Thus their jobs are cut.

Now do you understand?

You said "If the welfare office cannot find jobs..." as if the welfare office wants those people to find jobs. They don't. They don't!

The union employees of the welfare office, have their jobs exclusively based on having people on welfare.

If everyone found a job, and got off welfare, those people would lose their cushy government union jobs. They don't want people off welfare.

They want people on welfare, and collecting as much welfare as they possibly can, for a long as they possibly can.

It is their job security. So saying the welfare office should be able to find work for people on welfare, is like saying "I want government workers to destroy their on employment". Not going to happen.

By the way, we had the same thing happen here in Ohio in the late 90s
.

So if you don't know, the Republicans as part of their Contract with America, vowed to reduce welfare and food stamps. Welfare reform was passed in 1996. By 2000, the welfare rolls had dropped from roughly 12 million to less than 6 Million (roughly). 50% drop.

Here in Ohio, the welfare system started running ads on TV, advertising welfare.

Remember what I said above? What happens if you don't spend all your money? The government cuts your budget, and people lose their jobs. So they found SOMETHING... ANYTHING... to blow the money on. Even if it was advertisements on TV, for welfare. Because if they can get people back on the rolls, then they won't have their budget cut, and those cushy union jobs won't be lost.

Do you see the problem now? This is why using government for almost anything, is bad in the long run.

You can talk about the noble wonderful goals of every government agency, but none of that really matters to the people in those agencies. They are there for their own personal benefit. They have their own motivations, and their primary goal is to maintain their own jobs, and expand their wages, and grow their own agency.
 

Andylusion

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You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?
USA needs far more prisons than ever before
Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.
That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.



When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.
And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.
what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.
That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.
What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.
The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.
I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the life-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.
First off, we do have a multi-generational criminal sub-culture in this country and if you're going to pretend we don't, then I don't think we're going to be able to productively discuss this. I'm talking about sub-cultures not the entire culture, okay?

Those immigrants you talk about for the most part don't come from a culture that has been on welfare for 3 or 4 generations. They may be from a different culture but some of those cultures do value personal responsibility, hard work, and frugality, and some just plain don't.
Not all cultures are equal; some are just simply better than others.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?
Not sure how, but I was under the impression you were arguing the opposite of all that.

Yes, I agree with most of that.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?

Well you don't need an example to follow.

Where do you learn it from?

Proverbs 16:26
"The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need an example.

Now don't get me wrong.... obliviously.... OBVIOUSLY... if you have a good example of a work ethic growing up, you'll do better. No question.

But you don't 'need' to have a good example. All you need is to be hungry, and have no other option but to work.

Cut welfare. Throw criminals in prison, or kill them.

When you look around and there is no free lunch anymore, and crime is a bad option because you go to prison for life.....

You'll work. You don't need an example. You'll be hungry, and do what you need to do, to earn some bread.

You realize that this is actually one of the earliest lessons, that was learned from the American colonies?

When they first established a colony, all the food was in a collective, and distributed equally to people. Well the result was, no one wanted to work. No one wanted to plant crops. No one wanted to labor. People were lazy, and complaining their back hurt, and their leg was injured.

The colony faced starvation. So the leadership of the colony decided to divide up the land to all the colonists, and everyone was to own the responsibility of feeding themselves. No more free food.

Shockingly, all the men that were 'sick' magically got up and worked. The people with injured legs, hobbled out into the fields, and started planting. Women and children both, which prior to this was considered taboo to have women and children working the fields... all went out to fields and started working the ground.

The Bible is right: "The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on."

You don't need a good model. Yes a good model helps. No question. But people need, is no being fed for free... no more welfare, no more food stamps. And they need society to teach them through law enforcement, that crime is not an option.

Instead, we're doing the exact opposite, and the results are predictable.

Now I agree with you COMPLETELY... that culture matters. Like I mentioned in the other post, my father when he found I had shop lifted a game, that I already owned... he would have tossed me in Juvie. That black 'mother' (not sure how you can be a mother and openly promote theft), was teaching her kids that stealing was perfectly fine if you were not caught.

This is why prisons are so important. We need to make it clear that you will get caught. We need more enforcement. More policing. More tough laws on crime. More criminals executed or tossed in prison.

We need to make it so that, that black mother would NEVER encourage crime, because she knew it would get people in prison or executed.

I watched a 60 minutes years ago, specifically about people who intentionally committed crime, just to get back into prison. If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong.
"If people are trying to get into prison, we're doing it wrong."

Some of the loudest people in the country are demanding government provide free housing, free medical care, free education including college, food stamps (EBT or SNAP or whatever), and almost no guns anywhere.

Some others want to build a wall around it.


What does all of that sound like to you?
Not sure what you mean by people wanting to go to prison for free food, free education and place to stay.

If that was the case homeless people would do crime to get of the cold winter days in far north to get free food and warm prison cell.
I'm just saying it does happen, and fairly routinely. I mean, 60 minutes did a documentary on this. I watched. They talked with people who intentionally committed armed robbery... specifically... to get tossed into prison.

Now as far as the homeless... very very few of the "Homeless" are actually homeless. Most are people who have made being homeless, into a career.


This is normal. Here in Ohio, the local TV station had a reporter track a number of "homeless beggars" and all of them walked blocks away from where they were begging, climbed into a car, and drove to someplace of residence.

The few true real homeless people, are usually people with mental illness. Ironically this is tied to drug use, which the left-wing supports.

But beggars make pretty darn good money. Between $15, and $30 bucks an hour. This is why if you ever watch the guys with the cups... they don't leave the cash in the cups. Watch them. I have. You drop a $5, $10, or $20 in the cup.... they'll wait until you are around the corner, out of view, and quickly slip the money into usually a back pack. Not in their pocket, because you would notice the bulge in their pocket from all the cash. Plus they sometimes are robbed too. So you often see them with backpacks.

But back to the prisons.


The Social Order of the Underworld: How Prison Gangs Govern the American Penal System

Amazing little book about how people in prison gangs, write letters to gangs in other prisons. Make connections between prisons. Even plan out people getting back into prison. It's a fascinating insight into how the system works.

But the point here is that this is all planned out. They know who is getting out when, plan for them to meet up with other people, and have letters of references... kind of like references for a job interview, except they write each other talking about this guy is good for these things, he really good a such-and-such activity, and he'll be like this in prison, and can get smuggled drugs or whatever.

So people openly go back into prison to be with their gangs. This is a real thing.
Well the difference between west coast and Midwest is apples and oranges. If you hit the Midwest and south it is dirt cheap so you can get all those really small meth houses or meth trailer parks.The difference between west coast because of all those Mexicans coming to the US and no housing so those cities on the west coast are really costly now and the meth users and white trash are on the street where in the midwest and south they can buy cheap home or trailer park.

The Appalachian mountains have a lot of pill poppers and meth users but they not homeless because it is dirt cheap to live there.

Also poor down out white people and drug addicts normally steal ,shoplift, theft, fraud or ask people for money well black people rob and shoot people and sadly is violence and hood problem wanting to be gangsters among the black people.

The hip hop and rap music are full of this gangsters are cool and the rappers and hip hop not speaking anti gangsters.

Those cities are going get so costly by year 2050 that not even teacher or nurse will be able to buy home. And all middle class yes even upper middle class will be renting.

The people in the lower class will be on the street or living in rooming houses.

It is media, government and wall street that is lying there is middle class The middle class died in late 80s.

The only way to fix this is stop all immigration. If white people are not having enough kids and the population is going down than only bring in immigration to replace them. The US population should not be going up.

If you want lots and lots of immigration than do away with environment laws and start building homes and cities to lower housing cost. They don’t want city sprawl but want lots and lots of people all over the world moving to those cities. You can’t have it both ways.
That is ridiculous to claim the middle class died in the 1980s. No evidence whatsoever supporting such a claim. None.

Stopping immigration will cause a large number of other problems, and it will solve nothing.

Take Japan. We should learn something form Japan. As the birth rate continues to fall, and the population continues to decline, Japan has been effectively forced to import workers.

Companies need employees to do work. No employees, means the company has to import workers. If they don't, then they have to outsource work. You have to move to where the workers are.

If you look at the total population decline, verse the number of foreign workers, their is a very clear correlation between the two.

And yet even so, Japan has a huge problem with the number of retired people quickly out pacing the number of working people. Even more so than in the US. Which is part of the reason Japan has a higher Debt to GDP ratio than Venezuela, and honestly they could end up in crisis at any moment.

Back to the US. Our population is still growing, ONLY because of immigration. We simply are not having enough children. If we banned all immigration entirely into the US, our population would start declining immediately.

This would be catastrophic. Companies would be moving outside the US in droves. They would have to. We have 4.6 Million job postings for IT positions that need filled.... TODAY. Right now.

The only way companies have been able to fill positions is with immigrants. Have you gone around to the big companies? I have. I have been at more than a few. Half the work force is made up of immigrants.

You cut that off, and we have a huge problem.

Now we could fix this. The solution is actually pretty simple... Americans need to have more kids... and they need to raise their kids to be productive, and stop taking gender studies courses, and start taking coding, designing, and engineering classes.

And then you won't need to worry about immigrants.

But to cut off immigration, without fixing the problem that is causing immigration, is a very bad idea.

If the positions in this country were already filled with Americans, people wouldn't be immigrating here so much. It is specifically because there are people demanding workers, that workers are coming.


Those cities are going get so costly by year 2050 that not even teacher or nurse will be able to buy home. And all middle class yes even upper middle class will be renting.
The people in the lower class will be on the street or living in rooming houses.


This will not be fixed by cutting immigration.

As long as you have bad housing policies, this will be the result.

Compare San Fransisco to Houston Texas.

Similar type of city. Similar size. Lots and lots of people in a small area.

San Fransisco, insane housing prices, and tons of people homeless.

Houston, very reasonable, not so much of homeless problem.

Why? Houston does not even have zoning laws. Not even zoning laws, let alone the billion other regulations and controls on construction of housing that San Fransisco.

That's why Houston is relatively affordable, and San Fransisco is a crap hole.

Immigration is not the problem. Socialism is the problem. San Fransisco could be a middle class paradise again, in a year. One year. Deregulate EVERYTHING. Allow complete free-market unrestricted, housing development.

Housing prices in San Fransisco will fall dramatically. People will move closer to where they work, or even in the very build they work at, when you have mixed use buildings like we have here in Ohio. Residential on the 2nd and 3rd floor, and commercial on the first. People live directly above where they work. Don't need a car. You see this in Singapore, by the way. Condos above, grocery stores, and shops below.

All the areas that have massive housing problems, are entirely due to idiotic and ridiculous laws controlling construction. Place that don't have those laws, don't have those problems. It is that simple. Not an immigration problem.
 

Parker99

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Not everyone who plays violent video games and watch violent movies go out and do violent crimes.

Are you saying we got to ban all violent video games and ban all violent movies and TV shows to stop violent crimes?
 

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