Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

[Andylusion]

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

Than why is all the crime in Africa and Middle East? Why so much crime among blacks and Hispanic?

May be all those white people should kick all those 20s, 30s and 40s out on the street today and see how well they do.

Why can’t homeless people and people in poverty move in with families like the people in Japan, China and India. Yea because their is no family among people no family to help other family all greed and individualism today.

Look at white people in past and white people today?
Than pass a law you turn age 18 you leave your parents home and that see how well the white people leaching of their parents do.

I just answered that. The problem is lack of law enforcement, and a break down of morals.

Two short stories. I'm a kid. I bought a computer game called Thexder. Really old Japanese game, from the 1980s. So I played the game many times, and then it broke. Wouldn't play anymore. I don't know if I broke it, or it just wore out. Anyway, I happen to know the computer store down the road, had a copy of the game playing as a demo. So put the disc in my pocket, went to the store, and swapped them out.

My father found it. Somehow he knew it wasn't the same as the one I had owned. Even though they were identical.

He grabbed me by the neck, dragged me to the car. We drove to that store. He asked for the manager, and handed him the disc, and I'll never forget "My son got this from your store. Would you like to call the police? We can send him to Juvie if you want. Whatever you decide I'll go with."

My entire criminal life, started and ended with one incident, and me peeing in my pants, turning pale white in front of the manager of a store, and my father. Because my father absolutely would have called police, and I would have spent the night in Juvie.

Fast forward, I'm in college and working at a Cadillac dealership. A women next to me, finds out in the course of chatting, that I work at the dealership. She asks me "My son would love to have one of those Cadillac emblems. Could you get one for my son?"

"Well sure I can do that. They still cost $30 with an employee discount"

She replied "Oh no no.... I meant if you could just... you know... find one that no one will notice that it's missing"

The women was asking me to steal from my employer, so she could give the stolen goods to her son. Guess what color she was.

Now here's your chance. You tell me, why crime is higher in black neighborhoods.

May be all those white people should kick all those 20s, 30s and 40s out on the street today and see how well they do.

Sure. I support that. I have actually known several that have done that, and the result is they start living.

The absolute worst thing you can do, is let your kid stay at home into their 30s and 40s. Worst thing you can ever do.

I actually know a lady who went round and round, trying to get her son to get a job, and start taking care of himself. She finally just filed for eviction. And this amazing thing happened.... he got a job... rented an apartment, started living his life.

So, yes. Absolutely. All parents should kick their kids out of the house. You know eagles will come back to the nest, and start taring it apart, and then kick the young eagles out. And if they don't do that... they never fly. They'll starve in the nest.

Yes, kick the kids out. All parents need to do this for the good of their kids.

Look at white people in past and white people today?
Than pass a law you turn age 18 you leave your parents home and that see how well the white people leaching of their parents do.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Yes... parents should cut off their kids.

This was normal in the past. The whole reason we have "sweet 16" is because that is when girls used to get married.

Now we don't raise kids to be mature, and take care of their own life. So they just remain childish and immature into their 40s, living in their parents basement. I fight against that constantly.

 

[freyasman]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

 

[Andylusion]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the life-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

Chris Gardner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.

 

[EL Rich]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the left-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

Chris Gardner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.

I don’t think you are actually responding to me. I did not mention poverty once. I do not believe anything other than we are all responsible for our own behavior. I see no magic wand, instead I see people who are self-possessed to succeed succeeding and those who aren’t not.
As for other cultures, if you are meeting someone here from half way around the world, they by there mere desire to go to a foreign country shows their motivation to succeed.
As for the rest, wow man that’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t seem to directly relate to the original discussion about the purpose of our prison system.
If I am missing something here, please accept my sincere apology and feel free to point out what I am not seeing.

 

[freyasman]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the life-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

Chris Gardner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.

First off, we do have a multi-generational criminal sub-culture in this country and if you're going to pretend we don't, then I don't think we're going to be able to productively discuss this. I'm talking about sub-cultures not the entire culture, okay?

Those immigrants you talk about for the most part don't come from a culture that has been on welfare for 3 or 4 generations. They may be from a different culture but some of those cultures do value personal responsibility, hard work, and frugality, and some just plain don't.
Not all cultures are equal; some are just simply better than others.

If you never watched your parents or older relatives get up and go to work every day, where are you going to learn that behavior from? What examples are there for you to follow?

 

[EL Rich]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?

 

[freyasman]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?

Don't misunderstand me; it is totally on the individual to make the necessary changes to succeed, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what kind of paradigm shift in thinking and attitude is involved in making that change.
And that makes a lot of well-meaning attempts to help, a waste of time and money.

If you want to help people, take the time to truly understand the problem.
If you're not going to do that, then don't waste your time, just hang them on the courthouse lawn and be done with it.

 

[EL Rich]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?

Don't misunderstand me; it is totally on the individual to make the necessary changes to succeed, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what kind of paradigm shift in thinking and attitude is involved in making that change.
And that makes a lot of well-meaning attempts to help, a waste of time and money.

If you want to help people, take the time to truly understand the problem.
If you're not going to do that, then don't waste your time, just hang them on the courthouse lawn and be done with it.
[/QUOT
All fair points

 

[OnePercenter]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

You mean convicted felon. By felon, you'll kill Limbaugh.

A good purge is a federal death penalty for anyone that used a gun to commit a crime.

 

[Disir]

You guys know we have prison reentry programs, right? Each state has their own set up.

This is one.

 

[Quasar44]

We need to triple prisons and have federal executions for many serious crimes
More prisons - the better

 

[justinacolmena]

Well some jails and prison do help inmates get their GED or high school diploma but sadly in today’s world that GED or high school diploma does not mean much by today’s standard.

Under the organized codes of omertà and respect that govern criminal America and the carceral state, a college degree is absolutely worthless (or even of negative value) with any sort of arrest or "brush with the law" on one's record, let alone a conviction or mental health adjudication. Some ex-felons who have not been adjudicated as mental defectives are able to find jobs in the trades with some technical schooling, but untrained work, even if ex-felons or adjudicated mental defectives are permitted to apply for such jobs, can scarcely pay for basic human needs as food, clothing, and shelter in this day and age.

 

[Parker99]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

I completely disagree with you. Because we have people here, that immigrate here from other countries, where their parents, their grand parents, and their great grand parents, were all in poverty.

They come to the US, they open a business, they make money, and they become wealthy.

How did they do that? Where did those magical skills to be "prepared or equipped for that environment".... when they came from an entirely different country, with different culture, with different language..... how did that happen?

Explain, I want you to explain to me, why poor people, from poor countries, with poor parents and poor grand parents, who came from poor people.... can come to this country, and become wealthy?

How does that happen? Where did their life-skills and attitude come from to lift themselves out of Generational poverty?

Is there something 'magic' about poverty in other countries that gives them all the skills and attitudes they need, that poverty here in the US does not bestow on them?

I met a couple from Laos. They fled socialists in Laos, and came to the US. Laos is 129th on the Economic Freedom index.

So they came here, without knowing English. They got a job, while they learned English. Then after this couple learned English, they learned how to do CNC Machining, and got jobs earning $50,000 a year, each one. So their combined income was almost $100,000 a year.

.... from Laos.... where the AVERAGE income.... is just above McDonald's wages. I think they are up to what.... $20,000 a year is the average income in Laos? That's the average. Meaning 50% of the country earns less than that.

From Laos... with no recognized US education... learning English as a second language.... with no family here in the US. Just two people, a Husband, and a Wife, from a 3rd world country.....

Six figure income.

Explain? Please explain that. Where did their magical attitudes and life-skills to lift themselves out of generational poverty, come from?

And how is it that a person in the US, going to a US public school, that knows English natively..... can't get the left-skills and attitude to life themselves out of generational poverty, but a impoverished immigrant can?

How does that work? Explain?

And by the way, that is one of dozens of stories I can tell.

How many dozens of people in our own nation, lifted themselves out of generational poverty? Chris Gardner?

Chris Gardner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is man that was homeless. How did he magically gain the ability to lift himself out of generational poverty? Other than working very hard, and following the law..... what was the magic?

So no I don't buy that argument. Sorry, but that is wrong.

I don’t think you are actually responding to me. I did not mention poverty once. I do not believe anything other than we are all responsible for our own behavior. I see no magic wand, instead I see people who are self-possessed to succeed succeeding and those who aren’t not.
As for other cultures, if you are meeting someone here from half way around the world, they by there mere desire to go to a foreign country shows their motivation to succeed.
As for the rest, wow man that’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t seem to directly relate to the original discussion about the purpose of our prison system.
If I am missing something here, please accept my sincere apology and feel free to point out what I am not seeing.

There could be many reasons for what is causing crime. Well like in sociology like is society, group, culture or bad upbringing, bad parenting or problems like being poor is causing crime.

Or mental health problem like a brain anatomy problem or chemical imbalance.

I think the problem with general public is they don’t believe in bad brain anatomy problem or a chemical imbalance problem. So support free of the person that is making the choice has free will

Well we don’t have CT scan, MRI scan or blood work to support bad brain anatomy problem or chemical imbalance problem and so people like to argue it is well not a proven theory so you have no problem so you have free will.

When comes to sociology like free will It well becomes really murky as like many people say I was poor and did not do that or I had these problems or bad parents and did not do that and members blame weak character on the people that do that.

 

[Parker99]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?

Don't misunderstand me; it is totally on the individual to make the necessary changes to succeed, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what kind of paradigm shift in thinking and attitude is involved in making that change.
And that makes a lot of well-meaning attempts to help, a waste of time and money.

If you want to help people, take the time to truly understand the problem.
If you're not going to do that, then don't waste your time, just hang them on the courthouse lawn and be done with it.

Not sure what you mean that they cannot change their ways even if they want to?

 

[Parker99]

Well some jails and prison do help inmates get their GED or high school diploma but sadly in today’s world that GED or high school diploma does not mean much by today’s standard.

Under the organized codes of omertà and respect that govern criminal America and the carceral state, a college degree is absolutely worthless (or even of negative value) with any sort of arrest or "brush with the law" on one's record, let alone a conviction or mental health adjudication. Some ex-felons who have not been adjudicated as mental defectives are able to find jobs in the trades with some technical schooling, but untrained work, even if ex-felons or adjudicated mental defectives are permitted to apply for such jobs, can scarcely pay for basic human needs as food, clothing, and shelter in this day and age.

So you are saying even if they had college education they would not be able to keep the job they would get fired? Problems coming to work late or missing lot of work?

Having hard time keeping a job?

 

[justinacolmena]

Having hard time keeping a job?

That's why Democrat public defenders always advise defendants never to talk to the cops. Any police contact for any reason, you are fired, if you work for any of those businesses.

 

[freyasman]

You are cool. Agree with you 100%. Incarceration should be designed to break cycles of thinking and in extension behavior. Prison by itself is not the problem, our implementation of it is. For some inmates education, training and some form of counseling seem prudent. How do you read someone’s heart though? Some folks just have a “criminal mentality” and none of us can change until we are ready and want it enough to make sure it happens. How do we know when someone is ready to help themselves as opposed to working the system to get back at what landed them in custody in the first place?

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

That not really true compared to Europe the US has major prison population problem but compared to the world many other countries that have a very high prison population are close to the US level.

When you look at the map it all comes down to poverty. The countries that have more poverty are worse.

You you cannot really look at China because it is communist country.

And even that, is really reversing the causal link.

Crime.... causes.... poverty. People that engage in crime, get fired from their jobs. Don't advance up the economic ladder. End up going to prison, have criminal records, which makes it even more difficult for them to climb the economy ladder.

The implication here is that if we can just eliminate poverty, that crime will go away. That is absolutely false.

You need to eliminate crime, and then poverty will go away.

When people stop engaging in crime, and instead start working for what they want, they'll naturally progress up the economic ladder.

So locking people up, and enforcing the law... and teaching right and wrong in the public, that there is no excuse for crime.... that is how you end up with people becoming wealthy. Because they'll start working lawfully for what they want.

The problem is morals, and a lack of law enforcement. We need to double the size of our police force, and start coming down hard on crime.

Then poverty will decline.

Additionally, we need to stop encouraging unwed mothers, and stop subsidizing the breakup of the family. That also has a direct clear impact on crime, which has a direct impact on poverty.

Those are the solutions. Family values, and enforcing the law.

what they need to do is send them to a military school that teaches education and rehab them than give them a TV and gym to workout in prison to get big and strong.

If you don’t get high school you are going to get low paying job getting less than 10 dollars flipping burgers, working at car wash ,taking out the trash, being house cleaner or working at dishwasher in fast food or restaurant.

You well lack of education and good paying job and you will be doing crime to support your self.

That's not true. I know people who worked those jobs, without education, and didn't need to do crime to support themselves.

ME... for example.

I have no education. I have no training. No skills. No nothing.

I have worked flipping burgers, working a car wash, taking out trash, and so on.

Never once did I think.... oh I need to engage in crime to support myself!

By the way, cleaning houses is not a low pay job. What the heck are you talking about? You realize that house cleaners of any decent reputation, make almost $50/hour? How much they make a year, only is dependent on how many houses they are willing to do a day.

Now it takes work. You got to work at it. But you clean 3 houses a day, putting in 2 to 3 hours at each house, that's $200, to $400 per day. You do that 5 days a week, that's $2,000 a week, or $100,000 a year.

Ask me how I know that? I know two women that do that. There is only one reason they don't make $100,000 a year, and it simply because.... they don't want to. They would rather do fewer houses, and have time with their family.

But that actually illustrates my point. Anyone in this country, even ex-convicts, can be wealthy. It's a matter of choice. If you go and clean houses, you can make good money.

The problem isn't this mythology that people can't earn enough and thus.... magically... they just simply have no choice but to commit crime! .... No. The problem is, people don't want to work.

It's that simple. They commit crime, because they simply have no morals and think they are "entitled" to what they want in life. That is it. All that "they have no choice!" crap is made up left-wing nonsense.

What motivates individuals is as varied as our worlds population. I have gone into my county jail for the past few years to help inmates earn their GEDs. Some go after it like they are starving and the books in front of them are hamburgers. Others are just looking for an excuse to get out of their block. Some can’t wait to get on with their life, find a job and work hard. Others get released and are back within 6 months. The only difference is that some are mature enough to say, I do not lIke my situation and will do whatever it takes to change (note they take responsibility). Others say exactly what they think the “authority” wants to hear and as soon as they are out and the door to the jail closes with them on the other side...they are in the wind. What accounts for this difference? The best answer I’ve ever heard is that you have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And you know what, most of the the students that have succeeded were waiting trial for violent crimes ranging from murder to rape to human trafficking. You know who does consistently poorly? Guys who are serving 6 months for a DWI/not having the money or wisdom to hire a decent lawyer.
So what’s the answer? I help who is in front of me and hope they can make this the first step of positive change. I make no judgements because I have no idea what their history or specific circumstances are and I hope that if I ever found myself at the bottom of the barrel, someone would extend a hand to help me help myself.

The life-skills and attitudes of the people who are best able to survive in a prison environment, or in the sub-culture of the population most likely to be imprisoned, are totally different than the ones necessary to lift oneself out of generational poverty and to survive in a normal functional working society. They are simply not prepared or equipped for that environment, anymore than the typical suburban video-game playing 18 year old is ready for prison instead of college.
Now those skills and attitudes can be learned and adopted, but it takes a lot of effort and some good guidance by people that the individual is willing to listen to.
And it's hard to take even good advice from someone you know would never last a day in the environment you've been surviving in for years.

Your response makes me nervous, as it sounds like WMWLR to me. (Well Meaning White Liberal Racism) When we begin to talk about what people can’t do, or what limited expectations we should have for large groups (be that a race or individuals who live under the poverty line) I find that problematic. One of the most destructive forces I have seen in the lives of the men I have worked with is that those in authority around them have lower expectations of what they are capable of. There is an implicit message that without being saved by and taught “white culture”, or as you say the skills needed to succeed in this society, we should never expect these individuals to “save themselves”.
When we make excuses for why someone is less than, the main message is that they are less than. Are you old enough to remember Ebonics? Started as a way to express the minority culture in schools and turned into a a codified way to lower expectations of children of color. All in the name of leveling the playing field. Not quite affirmative action, n’est pas?

Don't misunderstand me; it is totally on the individual to make the necessary changes to succeed, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what kind of paradigm shift in thinking and attitude is involved in making that change.
And that makes a lot of well-meaning attempts to help, a waste of time and money.

If you want to help people, take the time to truly understand the problem.
If you're not going to do that, then don't waste your time, just hang them on the courthouse lawn and be done with it.

Not sure what you mean that they cannot change their ways even if they want to?

They can if they want to badly enough but they will still lack the skills and knowledge necessary. I'm not talking about vocational training, I mean knowing how to properly conduct oneself in order to get and keep a job, a place to live, and a relationship.
This shit isn't innate, you have to learn it from somewhere. And people who don't come from violent, dysfunctional, and often criminal subcultures, don't realize that.
And even when those people try to help them, it is difficult for them to listen to someone who they know would be dead meat if they had ever had to survive in the environment that criminals come from, and live in daily.


This stuff is HARD..... and most attempts will fail. That's just how it is.

 

[justinacolmena]

They can if they want to badly enough

It takes a criminal mindset to "want" something that badly, whatever it is.

how to properly conduct oneself in order to get and keep a job, a place to live, and a relationship.
This shit isn't innate, you have to learn it from somewhere

Some criminals get WitSec and relocation etc., but when things are not innate, they are unnatural, like too many homosexual relationships, and too much servitude and service of process at work.

Chedorlaomer, the Mayor of Sodom, to whom the chosen ones were held in fief for twelve long and hard years, was a servant of the laying down of the law.

The angels of the Lord, to whom Lot's daughters were betrothed, were themselves outlaws and fugitives from justice in Sodom, and Lot and his wife would have been arrested and charged for harboring them if he had opened the door to the men of the city who had gathered.

 

[freyasman]

Whatever guy, I don't care.
I'm a Heathen.

They can if they want to badly enough

It takes a criminal mindset to "want" something that badly, whatever it is.

how to properly conduct oneself in order to get and keep a job, a place to live, and a relationship.
This shit isn't innate, you have to learn it from somewhere

Some criminals get WitSec and relocation etc., but when things are not innate, they are unnatural, like too many homosexual relationships, and too much servitude and service of process at work.

Chedorlaomer, the Mayor of Sodom, to whom the chosen ones were held in fief for twelve long and hard years, was a servant of the laying down of the law.

The angels of the Lord, to whom Lot's daughters were betrothed, were themselves outlaws and fugitives from justice in Sodom, and Lot and his wife would have been arrested and charged for harboring them if he had opened the door to the men of the city who had gathered.

 

[White 6]

Well some jails and prison do help inmates get their GED or high school diploma but sadly in today’s world that GED or high school diploma does not mean much by today’s standard.

Under the organized codes of omertà and respect that govern criminal America and the carceral state, a college degree is absolutely worthless (or even of negative value) with any sort of arrest or "brush with the law" on one's record, let alone a conviction or mental health adjudication. Some ex-felons who have not been adjudicated as mental defectives are able to find jobs in the trades with some technical schooling, but untrained work, even if ex-felons or adjudicated mental defectives are permitted to apply for such jobs, can scarcely pay for basic human needs as food, clothing, and shelter in this day and age.

Sounds bad. You mean that criminals brought societal judgement upon themselves, in excess of the criminal justice system, to the point that noncriminals do not want them in their midst for the rest of their lives? This is not actually new news. What is the matter with some people's mind, intelligence or upbringing that would make them take up crime in the first place. Sounds like a shitty life on the outside, as society protects itself from the afflicted individual.