Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

[Mr Natural]

Should a gang member who shoots a rival or an innocent ever get out of prison?

Should a violent rapist ever get out of prison?

No on both.

Obviously but he's playing simplistic games in an attempt to not address my point.

Some crimes don’t deserve a second chance. Murder and rape are two of them.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I think violent criminals, murder, attempted murder, rape....should not be released....and should have life sentences....as to the rest, I can see some attempt at helping them once they get out....but in truth.....they dug a hole, and created a situation where most normal people will not trust them. Do you blame normal people?

Keep them there, no parole. Within 2 years violent crime would drop dramatically.

So I guess you two are ok with that cop who was convicted of killing Floyd never seeing the light of day. Or that kid in Wisconsin who will likely be convicted of murder.

So tell me what defines "normal"?
The person who doesn't think their argument through or the convict who did...

How about we talk actual criminals.....like the gang member who shoots another gang member or an innocent bystander he hits by mistake? Or the guy who drags a woman from a bus stop and rapes her.....?

Do you think they should ever be released from prison?

You do not get to define "actual criminals"

The court does that and the court found him to be a criminal.

Stop being dense

Doesn't matter.......it was a miscarriage of justice...but I do note you don't really want to address actual criminals ..... murderers and rapists....

Why is that?

You're a fucking moron. Off to iggy.....bye

Wow....that was quick...no wonder you went to prison....control issues much?

Prolly drunk already.

Clean debate zone. Keep the personal shit out or get the fuck out

Lol you are drunk.

Do you have ANYTHING of intelligence to add to the subject are are you just here to express your butthurt from the other day?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Should a gang member who shoots a rival or an innocent ever get out of prison?

Should a violent rapist ever get out of prison?

No on both.

Obviously but he's playing simplistic games in an attempt to not address my point.

Some crimes don’t deserve a second chance. Murder and rape are two of them.

I catch you raping a family member I would kill you.

No second chance eh?

There are ALWAYS the possibility for extenuating circumstances

 

[westwall]

All of which is true. However, once he was informed that floyd had no pulse, instead of having the paramedic, standing 20 feet away, come over and administer aid, as he is required BY LAW to do. He kept his knee on floyds neck and prevented the paramedic from helping. Manslaughter is what I would have convicted him for.

the paramedic stated on the stand he wasn't going to administer any help until off site. Get the facts from the case.

That's not what i heard him say in an interview.

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I think violent criminals, murder, attempted murder, rape....should not be released....and should have life sentences....as to the rest, I can see some attempt at helping them once they get out....but in truth.....they dug a hole, and created a situation where most normal people will not trust them. Do you blame normal people?

Keep them there, no parole. Within 2 years violent crime would drop dramatically.

So I guess you two are ok with that cop who was convicted of killing Floyd never seeing the light of day. Or that kid in Wisconsin who will likely be convicted of murder.

So tell me what defines "normal"?
The person who doesn't think their argument through or the convict who did...

How about we talk actual criminals.....like the gang member who shoots another gang member or an innocent bystander he hits by mistake? Or the guy who drags a woman from a bus stop and rapes her.....?

Do you think they should ever be released from prison?

You do not get to define "actual criminals"

The court does that and the court found him to be a criminal.

Stop being dense

Doesn't matter.......it was a miscarriage of justice...but I do note you don't really want to address actual criminals ..... murderers and rapists....

Why is that?

You're a fucking moron. Off to iggy.....bye

Wow....that was quick...no wonder you went to prison....control issues much?

Prolly drunk already.

Clean debate zone. Keep the personal shit out or get the fuck out

Lol you are drunk.

Do you have ANYTHING of intelligence to add to the subject are are you just here to express your butthurt from the other day?

Well, after the other night one must wonder. If not, why are you going after conservatives who you have agreed with in the past? Can we not just agree to disagree?

 

[jc456]

Or that kid in Wisconsin who will likely be convicted of murder.

self defense, you should actually watch the video. fk grampa, you're losing it. turning demofk before our very eyes. amazing.

What happens to him isn't dependent on what you or I think.

How do you not understand that??? 12 random people will decide his guilt. Not you or I or anyone else on USMB. I believe he is innocent but as I stated my opinion is 100% IRRELEVANT, just like yours.

So if he is indeed convicted this thread has made it clear that many of you would sentence him to eternity in prison because apparently some of you have yet to realize that one size fits all rules are total bullshit

Is there another trial? You’re wrong at the moment

 

[miketx]

12 random people will decide his guilt. Not you or I or anyone else on USMB. I believe he is innocent but as I stated my opinion is 100% IRRELEVANT, just like yours.

Handpicked by a leftist scum infested org.

 

[Dadoalex]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I've a son I will lose to the system the way you were lost for a time. I wish you well and appreciate the hope.

In any case...

My observation of the Juvenile system in Florida is that it's sole purpose is to build better adult criminals.

Absent a serious Class 1 felony (murder, rape, armed robbery):
The DJJ will not even consider processing a case.
Because the DJJ won't do its job, the police will not arrest young offenders
The young offenders understand this (and the onld one already know it)
so the young become targets for the older criminals as proxies.

1. Bring back "reform schools." You can't "reform" career criminals. Their behaviors are deeply ingrained. But if you start when they are young, it is possible to alter those behaviors before they become permanent.
2. Bring back public corporal punishment in schools. Have the parents do it, in front of the entire school. Yank their pants down and give them a couple of easy swats. Hopefully the embarrassment will have the desired effect.

Now for adults, a more difficult question:

I think we need to start with pre-conviction/sentencing.
Two type of people incarcerated pre-conviction. Criminals and offenders. The difference?
A guy selling pot is an offender.
A guy selling pot with a loader .32 in his pocket is a criminal.
Pre-conviction they are housed together in jail along with those already convicted of (sometimes) very serious crimes.
Quite often this arrangement turns the "offenders" into victims or better criminals.
I think the jails should segregate into pre-post conviction and serious vs offender groups.
"Offenders," for the most part should not be jailed. Yes, he may shoplift again or sell another joint, but the risk to a guy arrested for driving on an expired license is much greater to himself and to society when we jail him.

Now on to pot sentencing.

Again I think we should divvy the convicts into Serious and Light criminals. At that point, for both groups we have a choice to make.
Is prison for this group intended to punish or reform?
For the latter group (Light) I think the entire process should be about reform. Education, job skills, social skills, financial skills, and, finally, as release approaches, job placement assistance.
For the former group, it's hard. I think punishment should be the exclusive goal of this group with the opportunity to earn a shot at reform.

The devil, of course, is in the details but we must first decide on the desired outcomes before we can chose a method.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I've a son I will lose to the system the way you were lost for a time. I wish you well and appreciate the hope.

In any case...

My observation of the Juvenile system in Florida is that it's sole purpose is to build better adult criminals.

Absent a serious Class 1 felony (murder, rape, armed robbery):
The DJJ will not even consider processing a case.
Because the DJJ won't do its job, the police will not arrest young offenders
The young offenders understand this (and the onld one already know it)
so the young become targets for the older criminals as proxies.

1. Bring back "reform schools." You can't "reform" career criminals. Their behaviors are deeply ingrained. But if you start when they are young, it is possible to alter those behaviors before they become permanent.
2. Bring back public corporal punishment in schools. Have the parents do it, in front of the entire school. Yank their pants down and give them a couple of easy swats. Hopefully the embarrassment will have the desired effect.

Now for adults, a more difficult question:

I think we need to start with pre-conviction/sentencing.
Two type of people incarcerated pre-conviction. Criminals and offenders. The difference?
A guy selling pot is an offender.
A guy selling pot with a loader .32 in his pocket is a criminal.
Pre-conviction they are housed together in jail along with those already convicted of (sometimes) very serious crimes.
Quite often this arrangement turns the "offenders" into victims or better criminals.
I think the jails should segregate into pre-post conviction and serious vs offender groups.
"Offenders," for the most part should not be jailed. Yes, he may shoplift again or sell another joint, but the risk to a guy arrested for driving on an expired license is much greater to himself and to society when we jail him.

Now on to pot sentencing.

Again I think we should divvy the convicts into Serious and Light criminals. At that point, for both groups we have a choice to make.
Is prison for this group intended to punish or reform?
For the latter group (Light) I think the entire process should be about reform. Education, job skills, social skills, financial skills, and, finally, as release approaches, job placement assistance.
For the former group, it's hard. I think punishment should be the exclusive goal of this group with the opportunity to earn a shot at reform.

The devil, of course, is in the details but we must first decide on the desired outcomes before we can chose a method.

Great post. I did about a year in "reform" school around 15 years old but I was so deep into my bad lifestyle at that point that I treated it as a joke.

Our biggest problem is not intervening at a much younger age. I went to court DOZENS of times from about the age of 12 and they never did much of anything. It was a revolving door.
Catching the kids like me when they are young enough to still be guided is key.

 

[Dadoalex]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I've a son I will lose to the system the way you were lost for a time. I wish you well and appreciate the hope.

In any case...

My observation of the Juvenile system in Florida is that it's sole purpose is to build better adult criminals.

Absent a serious Class 1 felony (murder, rape, armed robbery):
The DJJ will not even consider processing a case.
Because the DJJ won't do its job, the police will not arrest young offenders
The young offenders understand this (and the onld one already know it)
so the young become targets for the older criminals as proxies.

1. Bring back "reform schools." You can't "reform" career criminals. Their behaviors are deeply ingrained. But if you start when they are young, it is possible to alter those behaviors before they become permanent.
2. Bring back public corporal punishment in schools. Have the parents do it, in front of the entire school. Yank their pants down and give them a couple of easy swats. Hopefully the embarrassment will have the desired effect.

Now for adults, a more difficult question:

I think we need to start with pre-conviction/sentencing.
Two type of people incarcerated pre-conviction. Criminals and offenders. The difference?
A guy selling pot is an offender.
A guy selling pot with a loader .32 in his pocket is a criminal.
Pre-conviction they are housed together in jail along with those already convicted of (sometimes) very serious crimes.
Quite often this arrangement turns the "offenders" into victims or better criminals.
I think the jails should segregate into pre-post conviction and serious vs offender groups.
"Offenders," for the most part should not be jailed. Yes, he may shoplift again or sell another joint, but the risk to a guy arrested for driving on an expired license is much greater to himself and to society when we jail him.

Now on to pot sentencing.

Again I think we should divvy the convicts into Serious and Light criminals. At that point, for both groups we have a choice to make.
Is prison for this group intended to punish or reform?
For the latter group (Light) I think the entire process should be about reform. Education, job skills, social skills, financial skills, and, finally, as release approaches, job placement assistance.
For the former group, it's hard. I think punishment should be the exclusive goal of this group with the opportunity to earn a shot at reform.

The devil, of course, is in the details but we must first decide on the desired outcomes before we can chose a method.

Great post. I did about a year in "reform" school around 15 years old but I was so deep into my bad lifestyle at that point that I treated it as a joke.

Our biggest problem is not intervening at a much younger age. I went to court DOZENS of times from about the age of 12 and they never did much of anything. It was a revolving door.
Catching the kids like me when they are young enough to still be guided is key.

And you hit the nail as it were.
Rather than incarceration as a last resort where all you're really doing is creating an introduction service for the worst of the worst the punishment should fit the crime.
No "chances." No "scoring."
Steal a car, reform school
Sell drugs, reform school
Do crimes, do time appropriate to the crime.

Lots would scream about this approach and if "reform school" were just a nice name for prison they'd be right.
But if "reform school" were really a school where they would learn self respect, self discipline and other social skills in addition to regular school then maybe we can turn some of them back to the path. And for those we cannot turn? They will have spent much of their teen years in what amounts to a military school and will walk out with a diploma and a chance. Probably a better teen life than they'd have had otherwise.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I've a son I will lose to the system the way you were lost for a time. I wish you well and appreciate the hope.

In any case...

My observation of the Juvenile system in Florida is that it's sole purpose is to build better adult criminals.

Absent a serious Class 1 felony (murder, rape, armed robbery):
The DJJ will not even consider processing a case.
Because the DJJ won't do its job, the police will not arrest young offenders
The young offenders understand this (and the onld one already know it)
so the young become targets for the older criminals as proxies.

1. Bring back "reform schools." You can't "reform" career criminals. Their behaviors are deeply ingrained. But if you start when they are young, it is possible to alter those behaviors before they become permanent.
2. Bring back public corporal punishment in schools. Have the parents do it, in front of the entire school. Yank their pants down and give them a couple of easy swats. Hopefully the embarrassment will have the desired effect.

Now for adults, a more difficult question:

I think we need to start with pre-conviction/sentencing.
Two type of people incarcerated pre-conviction. Criminals and offenders. The difference?
A guy selling pot is an offender.
A guy selling pot with a loader .32 in his pocket is a criminal.
Pre-conviction they are housed together in jail along with those already convicted of (sometimes) very serious crimes.
Quite often this arrangement turns the "offenders" into victims or better criminals.
I think the jails should segregate into pre-post conviction and serious vs offender groups.
"Offenders," for the most part should not be jailed. Yes, he may shoplift again or sell another joint, but the risk to a guy arrested for driving on an expired license is much greater to himself and to society when we jail him.

Now on to pot sentencing.

Again I think we should divvy the convicts into Serious and Light criminals. At that point, for both groups we have a choice to make.
Is prison for this group intended to punish or reform?
For the latter group (Light) I think the entire process should be about reform. Education, job skills, social skills, financial skills, and, finally, as release approaches, job placement assistance.
For the former group, it's hard. I think punishment should be the exclusive goal of this group with the opportunity to earn a shot at reform.

The devil, of course, is in the details but we must first decide on the desired outcomes before we can chose a method.

Great post. I did about a year in "reform" school around 15 years old but I was so deep into my bad lifestyle at that point that I treated it as a joke.

Our biggest problem is not intervening at a much younger age. I went to court DOZENS of times from about the age of 12 and they never did much of anything. It was a revolving door.
Catching the kids like me when they are young enough to still be guided is key.

And you hit the nail as it were.
Rather than incarceration as a last resort where all you're really doing is creating an introduction service for the worst of the worst the punishment should fit the crime.
No "chances." No "scoring."
Steal a car, reform school
Sell drugs, reform school
Do crimes, do time appropriate to the crime.

Lots would scream about this approach and if "reform school" were just a nice name for prison they'd be right.
But if "reform school" were really a school where they would learn self respect, self discipline and other social skills in addition to regular school then maybe we can turn some of them back to the path. And for those we cannot turn? They will have spent much of their teen years in what amounts to a military school and will walk out with a diploma and a chance. Probably a better teen life than they'd have had otherwise.

Agreed but in the moder climate I think that's a pipe dream. Now we're more concerned with passing flunking kids to protect their feelings instead of focusing on their future.

I'm not one of the doomsday tinfoil hat idiots but I do believe our best years are behind us. The culture has changed drastically and not for the good.

 

[Dadoalex]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I've a son I will lose to the system the way you were lost for a time. I wish you well and appreciate the hope.

In any case...

My observation of the Juvenile system in Florida is that it's sole purpose is to build better adult criminals.

Absent a serious Class 1 felony (murder, rape, armed robbery):
The DJJ will not even consider processing a case.
Because the DJJ won't do its job, the police will not arrest young offenders
The young offenders understand this (and the onld one already know it)
so the young become targets for the older criminals as proxies.

1. Bring back "reform schools." You can't "reform" career criminals. Their behaviors are deeply ingrained. But if you start when they are young, it is possible to alter those behaviors before they become permanent.
2. Bring back public corporal punishment in schools. Have the parents do it, in front of the entire school. Yank their pants down and give them a couple of easy swats. Hopefully the embarrassment will have the desired effect.

Now for adults, a more difficult question:

I think we need to start with pre-conviction/sentencing.
Two type of people incarcerated pre-conviction. Criminals and offenders. The difference?
A guy selling pot is an offender.
A guy selling pot with a loader .32 in his pocket is a criminal.
Pre-conviction they are housed together in jail along with those already convicted of (sometimes) very serious crimes.
Quite often this arrangement turns the "offenders" into victims or better criminals.
I think the jails should segregate into pre-post conviction and serious vs offender groups.
"Offenders," for the most part should not be jailed. Yes, he may shoplift again or sell another joint, but the risk to a guy arrested for driving on an expired license is much greater to himself and to society when we jail him.

Now on to pot sentencing.

Again I think we should divvy the convicts into Serious and Light criminals. At that point, for both groups we have a choice to make.
Is prison for this group intended to punish or reform?
For the latter group (Light) I think the entire process should be about reform. Education, job skills, social skills, financial skills, and, finally, as release approaches, job placement assistance.
For the former group, it's hard. I think punishment should be the exclusive goal of this group with the opportunity to earn a shot at reform.

The devil, of course, is in the details but we must first decide on the desired outcomes before we can chose a method.

Great post. I did about a year in "reform" school around 15 years old but I was so deep into my bad lifestyle at that point that I treated it as a joke.

Our biggest problem is not intervening at a much younger age. I went to court DOZENS of times from about the age of 12 and they never did much of anything. It was a revolving door.
Catching the kids like me when they are young enough to still be guided is key.

And you hit the nail as it were.
Rather than incarceration as a last resort where all you're really doing is creating an introduction service for the worst of the worst the punishment should fit the crime.
No "chances." No "scoring."
Steal a car, reform school
Sell drugs, reform school
Do crimes, do time appropriate to the crime.

Lots would scream about this approach and if "reform school" were just a nice name for prison they'd be right.
But if "reform school" were really a school where they would learn self respect, self discipline and other social skills in addition to regular school then maybe we can turn some of them back to the path. And for those we cannot turn? They will have spent much of their teen years in what amounts to a military school and will walk out with a diploma and a chance. Probably a better teen life than they'd have had otherwise.

Agreed but in the moder climate I think that's a pipe dream. Now we're more concerned with passing flunking kids to protect their feelings instead of focusing on their future.

I'm not one of the doomsday tinfoil hat idiots but I do believe our best years are behind us. The culture has changed drastically and not for the good.

True but, if we stop trying they will be lost.
So, like Don Quixote, we must continue the quest.

BUT

It really wouldn't be that hard in Florida given the political will.
All the laws and guidelines already exist.
Just move the money.
If the political will existed.

 

[JoeBlow]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

How are you going to make the shitbirds that don't want to go to school comply? Many only go to school to meet with other cons and trade contraband or info or pay debts.

 

[there4eyeM]

The purpose of prisons is to hold people out of society. Society's interests should be for the safety and betterment of everyone. When an individual has crossed the line from the tolerable to the intolerable, society is justified in taking the steps necessary to protect the innocent from the guilty and the guilty from themselves. Today we have methods other than medieval. There are therapies, chemicals and also prisons depending on what is most appropriate. Some mindsets can be modified, some characters reformed. Not all can. We have the ability to determine which are which.

 

[miketx]

We have the ability to determine which are which.

Lie detectors don't work.

 

[JoeBlow]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

How are you going to make the shitbirds that don't want to go to school comply? Many only go to school to meet with other cons and trade contraband or info or pay debts.

The more you go to school, the more the shaved off your sentence. If you don't want to, you serve out your whole sentence, no parole.

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

How are you going to make the shitbirds that don't want to go to school comply? Many only go to school to meet with other cons and trade contraband or info or pay debts.

The more you go to school, the more the shaved off your sentence. If you don't want to, you serve out your whole sentence, no parole.

What about the rest of what I said? Some will go but for another reason than to learn. And why shave anything off the sentence, that what keeps crime increasing?

 

[JoeBlow]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

How are you going to make the shitbirds that don't want to go to school comply? Many only go to school to meet with other cons and trade contraband or info or pay debts.

The more you go to school, the more the shaved off your sentence. If you don't want to, you serve out your whole sentence, no parole.

What about the rest of what I said? Some will go but for another reason than to learn. And why shave anything off the sentence, that what keeps crime increasing?

If they show that they are serious taking the classes, then shave some time off. Show that if they rehabilitate themselves, they get a bonus of sometime shaved off, maybe not years, but even a 6 month slice would be a good incentive.

 

[miketx]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Start with letting out all the people convinced of weed. And all the prostitutes (and stop arresting them). Then turn the prisons into trade schools and force everyone to learn an actual trade, so you could "graduate" to a better facility where they actually make stuff to sell...

How are you going to make the shitbirds that don't want to go to school comply? Many only go to school to meet with other cons and trade contraband or info or pay debts.

The more you go to school, the more the shaved off your sentence. If you don't want to, you serve out your whole sentence, no parole.

What about the rest of what I said? Some will go but for another reason than to learn. And why shave anything off the sentence, that what keeps crime increasing?

If they show that they are serious taking the classes, then shave some time off. Show that if they rehabilitate themselves, they get a bonus of sometime shaved off, maybe not years, but even a 6 month slice would be a good incentive.

I'll just have to disagree. IMO we are too lenient on most criminals.