What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[Trajan]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

there is a difference between being a citizen................and a subject.

 

[sealybobo]

That would be the courts, the police function and the military, and even those are debatable.

Every other function government sucks at.

Interstate Highway system, food and drug safety, schools, welfare, social security just some of the functions best served by government

So is medical care, the US is just too stupid to realize it

ROFL! Everyone of those programs is a disaster and a boondoggle. Our schools are the worst, Social Security is huge Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, welfare breeds crime and dependency, thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve drugs and they end up costing a fortune, and the Interstate highways system costs hundreds of billions of dollars and replaced a system that was totally free to the taxpayers.

You are wrong on so many levels. Our schools aren't the worst. Only our poorest schools are the worst. That's because their parents don't have jobs and so the school system is broke. We could fix that if we raise taxes on the rich and corporations. And its not even really raising their taxes. Its undoing the unfair tax breaks they've been getting since Reagan.

Rich people hate public schools because they send their kids to private schools.

You are so wrong on so many levels but I don't want to ramble.

I'll say one more thing about one more lie you said. You said something about interstate highways that are free to tax payers? You mean like Jeb Bush's toll roads in Florida? I have to pay $5 to drive on the freakin road?

Romney did the same thing in Massachussets. He lowered taxes for the rich and raised tolls.

If you are middle class, you either need to wake up from the brainwashing or stay out of politics. You are voting against your own financial interests and don't even know it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Super! Conservatives know that we need smart government in the 21st century which is full of money, power, authority. It needs to be a servant of the people, not business or government itself.

 

[sealybobo]

R Gov Rick Snyder did the same thing. He lowered taxes for the corporations so the tax burden will instead fall on us at a local level. He didn't lower middle class taxes. AND, its now going to cost $200 a year to register my car instead of $120.

That's not a tax. Its a fee. So he can honestly say he didn't raise our taxes? I guess if I don't want to drive I can avoid his "fee". What a joke.

Republicans don't help middle class Americans. How do they get their votes? Oh yea, god, gays, racism and guns.

 

[Foxfyre]

What bugs us Libs about you Cons is that you don't understand that the GOP aren't interested in smaller government. You've seen, they've grown government every chance they have had. But the benefits went to their buddies. The top 1%. The Military Industrial Complex. CEO's. Exxon. Blackwater.

Rather than have it go for paying for the middle class and poor people, social security, schools, etc. The rich want to "SHRINK" government but only where they pay to help the poor. Their cuts will never benefit you. The Bush tax breaks don't.

Do you think you will save money if they privatize the post office? Not a chance. Your taxes will still go up because any savings go to the corporations now, and you know it.

And your party will never fix the debt. $14 trillion is it now? What will they do to pay down the debt. Their military adventures alone make that idea a fanstasy.

And you righties are only being cheap now because you don't want Obama spending money on America in America. If its not a war, we can't afford it.

Please do not confuse the GOP and the modern American conservative movement. They are NOT the same thing. All those on the Right are not Republicans and all Republicans aren't on the Right. So you are correct that many in the GOP give lip service to smaller government but do little or nothing to accomplish it. Therefore, the government held fast to its Constitutional roots until the Theodore Roosevelt administration at which time the government began reverting to a more monarchal and/or authoritarian government model and the government has been growing and spiraling out of control no matter who has been iin the White House ever since.

What irritates me about liberals/leftists is that most are too ignorant or conditioned/brainwashed into not seeing and understanding that. Too many on the Left continue to clamor for a king and pooh pooh those who understand and yearn for the personal liberty and the concept of unalienable rights that the Founders gave us.

And yes, that is a major frustration those on the right have about liberals.

Please. See, you guys have gone so far to the right, today, even Reagan is a flaming liberal socialist.

Name me your liberal republicans.

Fact is, too many Democrats lean too far to the right. Examples, every blue dog democrat and Liebermann. All the Democrats that killed healtcare reform are nothing more than Republicans in Democratic clothing.

You may find from time to time a Republican that goes along with the Democrats on a vote, but you can't find me a GOP equivilant to Libermann, now can you? A Republican who goes along with the Dems all the time. Find me one.

That's pretty easy. Here are the top-ranked liberal Senators in recent years:

1. Snowe, Olympia (R.-Maine) 47.8

2. Collins, Susan (R.-Maine) 47.2

3. Smith, Gordon (R.-Ore.) 47.2

4. Specter, Arlen (R.-Pa.) 45.5

5. Coleman, Norm, (R-Minn.) 42.5

6. Lugar, Richard (R.-Ind.) 41.8

7. Voinovich, George (R.-Ohio) 41.8

8. Warner, John (R.-Va.) 38.8

9. Hagel, Chuck (R.-Neb.) 38.7

10. Stevens, Ted, (R.-Alaska)

(The percentages are the percentage of votes favoring the left side of the aisle.) I won't bother hunting up the liberals in the House because they usually get voted out after a term or two.

The Republican Party, once upon a time - a time within the life of most people reading this - included among its members such moderates and even liberals as Nelson Rockefeller, Jacob Javits, Margaret Chase Smith, Clifford Case, Mark Hatfield (who co-sponsored with George McGovern an amendment to end the Viet Nam War), Lowell Weicker, Richard Schweiker, Kenneth Keating and John Chafee. Remarkable people all of them, well-worth looking up. They may have been in the minority of their party, but they were trusted and admired voices, helping focus Republican direction.
Robert J. Elisberg: Yes, Virginia, There are Liberal Republicans

When you can identify a single modern American conservative prinicple that is suggested as policy by the vast majority of those on the right, and which you can make a coherant argument that it would be harmful or bad policy, you might have some credibility in your assessment of those on the right.

Until then, you simply sound like somebody brainwashed to recite the empty phrases assigned by the radical Left.

 

[francoHFW]

The disappearing dittohead is getting more and more shrill, and idiotic. Thanks for your help...

 

[Inthemiddle]

ROFL! Everyone of those programs is a disaster and a boondoggle. Our schools are the worst, Social Security is huge Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, welfare breeds crime and dependency, thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve drugs and they end up costing a fortune, and the Interstate highways system costs hundreds of billions of dollars and replaced a system that was totally free to the taxpayers.

And this is what the OP fails to realize. He can talk until he's blue in the face, but there will always be idiots out there who prove him wrong. Idiots on the right who do want to insist that everything the federal government does should not be done because of whatever problems exist within the way the government operates. The problem is not that liberals are difficult to argue with. The problem is that there will always be people on both sides who take stupid positions, who corrupt what the reasonable components of each side are trying to say.

 

[rightwinger]

That would be the courts, the police function and the military, and even those are debatable.

Every other function government sucks at.

Interstate Highway system, food and drug safety, schools, welfare, social security just some of the functions best served by government

So is medical care, the US is just too stupid to realize it

ROFL! Everyone of those programs is a disaster and a boondoggle. Our schools are the worst, Social Security is huge Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, welfare breeds crime and dependency, thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve drugs and they end up costing a fortune, and the Interstate highways system costs hundreds of billions of dollars and replaced a system that was totally free to the taxpayers.

Start your own school and tell me how it turns out. I would guess three quarters of the posters on this board went to public school systems and universities. So have our doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists

For a Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, Social Security has provided a retirement safety net for 75 years and is still solvent. Millions of Americans rely on it and don't want you messing with it

The interstate highway system is the most efficient system of highways in our country and replaced a hodgepodge of substandard roadways

Government works

 

[sealybobo]

Please do not confuse the GOP and the modern American conservative movement. They are NOT the same thing. All those on the Right are not Republicans and all Republicans aren't on the Right. So you are correct that many in the GOP give lip service to smaller government but do little or nothing to accomplish it. Therefore, the government held fast to its Constitutional roots until the Theodore Roosevelt administration at which time the government began reverting to a more monarchal and/or authoritarian government model and the government has been growing and spiraling out of control no matter who has been iin the White House ever since.

What irritates me about liberals/leftists is that most are too ignorant or conditioned/brainwashed into not seeing and understanding that. Too many on the Left continue to clamor for a king and pooh pooh those who understand and yearn for the personal liberty and the concept of unalienable rights that the Founders gave us.

And yes, that is a major frustration those on the right have about liberals.

Please. See, you guys have gone so far to the right, today, even Reagan is a flaming liberal socialist.

Name me your liberal republicans.

Fact is, too many Democrats lean too far to the right. Examples, every blue dog democrat and Liebermann. All the Democrats that killed healtcare reform are nothing more than Republicans in Democratic clothing.

You may find from time to time a Republican that goes along with the Democrats on a vote, but you can't find me a GOP equivilant to Libermann, now can you? A Republican who goes along with the Dems all the time. Find me one.

That's pretty easy. Here are the top-ranked liberal Senators in recent years:

1. Snowe, Olympia (R.-Maine) 47.8

2. Collins, Susan (R.-Maine) 47.2

3. Smith, Gordon (R.-Ore.) 47.2

4. Specter, Arlen (R.-Pa.) 45.5

5. Coleman, Norm, (R-Minn.) 42.5

6. Lugar, Richard (R.-Ind.) 41.8

7. Voinovich, George (R.-Ohio) 41.8

8. Warner, John (R.-Va.) 38.8

9. Hagel, Chuck (R.-Neb.) 38.7

10. Stevens, Ted, (R.-Alaska)

(The percentages are the percentage of votes favoring the left side of the aisle.) I won't bother hunting up the liberals in the House because they usually get voted out after a term or two.

The Republican Party, once upon a time - a time within the life of most people reading this - included among its members such moderates and even liberals as Nelson Rockefeller, Jacob Javits, Margaret Chase Smith, Clifford Case, Mark Hatfield (who co-sponsored with George McGovern an amendment to end the Viet Nam War), Lowell Weicker, Richard Schweiker, Kenneth Keating and John Chafee. Remarkable people all of them, well-worth looking up. They may have been in the minority of their party, but they were trusted and admired voices, helping focus Republican direction.
Robert J. Elisberg: Yes, Virginia, There are Liberal Republicans

When you can identify a single modern American conservative prinicple that is suggested as policy by the vast majority of those on the right, and which you can make a coherant argument that it would be harmful or bad policy, you might have some credibility in your assessment of those on the right.

Until then, you simply sound like somebody brainwashed to recite the empty phrases assigned by the radical Left.

Isn't Ted Stevens dead? This is proof of how far right your party has gone. To suggest those people lean left. Like I said. Sure they have voted with the Dems occasionally, but isn't that what you do when you go to washington? With you guys, compromise is a bad word.

Reagan wouldn't even win the nomination if he ran today. That is how far right the GOP is.

Didn't he legalize abortion in california even before Roe v Wade?

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

This board should stop identifying with the poster based on political bias and actually read the words before responding with sweeping generalizations against the party line.

It could be an interesting place.

 

[sealybobo]

And you should know that us on the left hate every person on that list, so don't try to give them to us. If they are liberals, its news to us liberals. And how do they win the GOP nominee if they are liberal?

I don't know one GOP governor who is being pulled left, like Romney says he was pulled left in Massachussets. Snyder in Detroit? Pretty blue state and he's pushing a pretty hard core right wing agenda.

Walker, Christie, the Gov in Ohio who tried to take collective bargaining away from union workers. I could go on and on.

Every GOP Governor is pushing the envelope while they have a chance. Pushing the agenda of the billionaires.

Those Republicans have voters to answer to. I'll be willing to bet you the only times these people even went along with the Democrats is when it was an election year and they had to or face voters at the booth. Or sometimes we paid them to go along. It happens in politics you know. GOP aren't the only ones who play that game. Tit for tat they call it.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I am more amused by liberals than frustrated. I am amused that their inability to logically defend a point so easily morphs into personal attacks, strawman arguments, projection, cries of racism or (my favorite) a response similar or equal to "bullshit!"

Liberalism is (an amusing) mental disorder.

Take a step back and read what you wrote (above)

 

[Dr.Drock]

Interstate Highway system, food and drug safety, schools, welfare, social security just some of the functions best served by government

So is medical care, the US is just too stupid to realize it

ROFL! Everyone of those programs is a disaster and a boondoggle. Our schools are the worst, Social Security is huge Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, welfare breeds crime and dependency, thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve drugs and they end up costing a fortune, and the Interstate highways system costs hundreds of billions of dollars and replaced a system that was totally free to the taxpayers.

Start your own school and tell me how it turns out. I would guess three quarters of the posters on this board went to public school systems and universities. So have our doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists

For a Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, Social Security has provided a retirement safety net for 75 years and is still solvent. Millions of Americans rely on it and don't want you messing with it

The interstate highway system is the most efficient system of highways in our country and replaced a hodgepodge of substandard roadways

Government works

That's because you aren't comparing it to anything.


The best way to tell how good government is at handling these things, is to measure the effieciency of gov't vs the efficiency of the private market.



Which is a liberal's worst nightmare.

 

[rightwinger]

ROFL! Everyone of those programs is a disaster and a boondoggle. Our schools are the worst, Social Security is huge Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, welfare breeds crime and dependency, thousands of people die waiting for the FDA to approve drugs and they end up costing a fortune, and the Interstate highways system costs hundreds of billions of dollars and replaced a system that was totally free to the taxpayers.

Start your own school and tell me how it turns out. I would guess three quarters of the posters on this board went to public school systems and universities. So have our doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists

For a Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, Social Security has provided a retirement safety net for 75 years and is still solvent. Millions of Americans rely on it and don't want you messing with it

The interstate highway system is the most efficient system of highways in our country and replaced a hodgepodge of substandard roadways

Government works

That's because you aren't comparing it to anything.


The best way to tell how good government is at handling these things, is to measure the effieciency of gov't vs the efficiency of the private market.



Which is a liberal's worst nightmare.

Go for it

In some cases, the private market is the preferable solution. In other cases the government is the best option to provide essential services

I've said it before and I will say it again. The US has the best government in the world. To claim they are incapable of providing critical services to Americans is childish

 

[Uncensored2008]

Go for it

In some cases, the private market is the preferable solution. In other cases the government is the best option to provide essential services

I've said it before and I will say it again. The US has the best government in the world. To claim they are incapable of providing critical services to Americans is childish

America has the worst educational system in the free world. We rank 17th in science and 25th in math.

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

The system is run to benefit the teachers union, not to provide quality education. Success is measured by the lavish retirement packages offered teachers, not by the educational prowess of the students. The high school drop out rate for LAUSD is 34.9% - a district that enjoys the highest per pupil spending in the Nation.

High school dropout rate climbs to 34.9% - latimes.com

America's educational system is just a little less successful than the Titanic was.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Go for it

In some cases, the private market is the preferable solution. In other cases the government is the best option to provide essential services

I've said it before and I will say it again. The US has the best government in the world. To claim they are incapable of providing critical services to Americans is childish

America has the worst educational system in the free world. We rank 17th in science and 25th in math.

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

The system is run to benefit the teachers union, not to provide quality education. Success is measured by the lavish retirement packages offered teachers, not by the educational prowess of the students. The high school drop out rate for LAUSD is 34.9% - a district that enjoys the highest per pupil spending in the Nation.

High school dropout rate climbs to 34.9% - latimes.com

America's educational system is just a little less successful than the Titanic was.

Thanks for doing my homework for me.


That doesn't even include all the spending, deficits, debts the department of education contributes to as well.

 

[bripat9643]

I am more amused by liberals than frustrated. I am amused that their inability to logically defend a point so easily morphs into personal attacks, strawman arguments, projection, cries of racism or (my favorite) a response similar or equal to "bullshit!"

Liberalism is (an amusing) mental disorder.

Take a step back and read what you wrote (above)

Yeah. So?

 

[bripat9643]

Isn't Ted Stevens dead? This is proof of how far right your party has gone. To suggest those people lean left. Like I said.

How do you determine whether a politician leans left if not by the way he votes?

Sure they have voted with the Dems occasionally, but isn't that what you do when you go to washington? With you guys, compromise is a bad word.

Conservatives elect politicians to cut programs, cut regulations and cut spending. They don't elect them to "compromise" on huge spending increases. You're correct when you say "compromise" is a dirty word because its just another name for massive spending increases.

 

[rightwinger]

Go for it

In some cases, the private market is the preferable solution. In other cases the government is the best option to provide essential services

I've said it before and I will say it again. The US has the best government in the world. To claim they are incapable of providing critical services to Americans is childish

America has the worst educational system in the free world. We rank 17th in science and 25th in math.

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

The system is run to benefit the teachers union, not to provide quality education. Success is measured by the lavish retirement packages offered teachers, not by the educational prowess of the students. The high school drop out rate for LAUSD is 34.9% - a district that enjoys the highest per pupil spending in the Nation.

High school dropout rate climbs to 34.9% - latimes.com

America's educational system is just a little less successful than the Titanic was.

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

 

[bripat9643]

Start your own school and tell me how it turns out.

What would that prove? Do you imagine there are no successful private schools in this country? It's amazing that their are private schools when parents already have to pay for thos crappy government schools. The fact that some parent still insist on sending their kids to private school shows how truly worthless the government schools are.

I would guess three quarters of the posters on this board went to public school systems and universities. So have our doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists

What do you imagine that proves? Most parents can't afford to pay twice for schooling their children. That's all you proved.

For a Ponzi scheme that is quickly going bankrupt, Social Security has provided a retirement safety net for 75 years and is still solvent. Millions of Americans rely on it and don't want you messing with it

Every Ponzi scheme never misses a payment until the day it collapses. furthermore, Social Security has already reneged on the original terms of the deal many times. The government has raised FICA taxes several times and reduced the benefits. If a private firm did that, the officers would be prosecuted for fraud.

The interstate highway system is the most efficient system of highways in our country and replaced a hodgepodge of substandard roadways

it's the only one, so that isn't much of an accomplishment.

Government works

Horseshit.