What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[bripat9643]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Go for it

In some cases, the private market is the preferable solution. In other cases the government is the best option to provide essential services

I've said it before and I will say it again. The US has the best government in the world. To claim they are incapable of providing critical services to Americans is childish

America has the worst educational system in the free world. We rank 17th in science and 25th in math.

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

The system is run to benefit the teachers union, not to provide quality education. Success is measured by the lavish retirement packages offered teachers, not by the educational prowess of the students. The high school drop out rate for LAUSD is 34.9% - a district that enjoys the highest per pupil spending in the Nation.

High school dropout rate climbs to 34.9% - latimes.com

America's educational system is just a little less successful than the Titanic was.

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

Spending on education goes up every year, and the link shows our student scores going down.


That means throw more money at the problem?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Thanks for doing my homework for me.


That doesn't even include all the spending, deficits, debts the department of education contributes to as well.

My sig probably makes clear that the education mess is a big focus of mine.

I teach introductory economics for the nation's largest private university. (As a second job.) The educational level that most first year students demonstrate is shocking. These should be the best and the brightest, yet most cannot construct a grammatically correct sentence.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

No comrade, that isn't it.

Try again, see if you can pull something intelligent out.....

 

[konradv]

I am more amused by liberals than frustrated. I am amused that their inability to logically defend a point so easily morphs into personal attacks, strawman arguments, projection, cries of racism or (my favorite) a response similar or equal to "bullshit!"

Liberalism is (an amusing) mental disorder.

You plagiarized my post about how frustrating it is to argue with conservatives!!!

 

[Dr.Drock]

Thanks for doing my homework for me.


That doesn't even include all the spending, deficits, debts the department of education contributes to as well.

My sig probably makes clear that the education mess is a big focus of mine.

I teach introductory economics for the nation's largest private university. (As a second job.) The educational level that most first year students demonstrate is shocking. These should be the best and the brightest, yet most cannot construct a grammatically correct sentence.

The guy who stood next to me (because of the alphabetical order of our names) at the graduation ceremony for our high school, I swear could barely read. He was probably at a 4th or 5th grade level.

I went to an average school, I bet guys like him are the norm for a lot of schools. I'm not even bashing him, he was the end result of a pathetic system and wasn't given a chance.

As an econ professor it has to be sad how many students come in to your class totally clueless on the subject. In high school I had a speed reading course, had a class on journalism, and I'm sure a few others that were essentially useless while the subjects of economics and finance went completely untouched.

 

[Foxfyre]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The fact is that Parochial schools do a better job of educating kids than do public schools in almost every category.

The fact is that secular private schools do a better job of educating kids than do most parochial schools and almost all public schools.

The fact is that homeschooled kids are getting a far superior education than all the other groups.

The fact is, when our elected leaders who are using the people's money to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes send THEIR kids to the same public schools they force on the rest of us, THEN I might believe they give a damn about whether the public schools are doing a good job of education. Until then, our liberal friends seem unable to see that the bureaucracy is swallowing up almost all of the money with very little going to actually educate kids.

We are already presumably spending more per capita on education than almost any other country and are getting some of the worst results. That suggests we should get the Federal government out of education altogether and return the system to the local communities and school boards that once provided our school kids with a world class education on a par with or that exceeded just about everybody else.

The most frustrating thing about discvussing this with liberals is that they will not see what is, but think if we just throw more money after the bad, that will fix the problem plus any of us who oppose putting more federal funding into bad education are accused of wanting to stop educating our kids.

 

[Bern80]

You mean like the way anyone receiving public assistance is a welfare cheat and all union workers are lazy, overpaid slobs?

Thanks for confirming exactly what asartis accused liberals of doing.

 

[rightwinger]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

 

[Ernie S.]

You mean like the way anyone receiving public assistance is a welfare cheat and all union workers are lazy, overpaid slobs?

No. We mean like you put words in our mouths and insist that when we talk of unproductive union workers and welfare cheats, we used the words "anyone" and "all".

 

[Bern80]

I am more amused by liberals than frustrated. I am amused that their inability to logically defend a point so easily morphs into personal attacks, strawman arguments, projection, cries of racism or (my favorite) a response similar or equal to "bullshit!"

Liberalism is (an amusing) mental disorder.

You plagiarized my post about how frustrating it is to argue with conservatives!!!

Do you have an example of a liberal point that conservatives can not logically defend? Come on dude. You can't be this dumb about the fundamentals of your own ideology. Liberalism is a CLEARLY more emotionally based ideology than conservative. It is liberals that favor 'feel good' solutions as opposed to solutions that make sense.

 

[Foxfyre]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

You really REALLY ought to do some reading before you post sometimes:

When it come to excellence in education, red states rule—at least according to a panel of experts assembled by Tina Brown’s Newsweek.

Using a set of indicators ranging from graduation rate to college admissions and SAT scores, the panel reviewed data from high schools all over the country to find the best public schools in the country.

The results make depressing reading for the teacher unions: The very best public high schools in the country are heavily concentrated in red states.

Read more: Republican States Have The Best Public Schools In The Country, By A Long Shot - Business Insider

 

[rightwinger]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The fact is that Parochial schools do a better job of educating kids than do public schools in almost every category.

The fact is that secular private schools do a better job of educating kids than do most parochial schools and almost all public schools.

The fact is that homeschooled kids are getting a far superior education than all the other groups.

The fact is, when our elected leaders who are using the people's money to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes send THEIR kids to the same public schools they force on the rest of us, THEN I might believe they give a damn about whether the public schools are doing a good job of education. Until then, our liberal friends seem unable to see that the bureaucracy is swallowing up almost all of the money with very little going to actually educate kids.

We are already presumably spending more per capita on education than almost any other country and are getting some of the worst results. That suggests we should get the Federal government out of education altogether and return the system to the local communities and school boards that once provided our school kids with a world class education on a par with or that exceeded just about everybody else.

The most frustrating thing about discvussing this with liberals is that they will not see what is, but think if we just throw more money after the bad, that will fix the problem plus any of us who oppose putting more federal funding into bad education are accused of wanting to stop educating our kids.

It's all apples and oranges

Private schools get to select their apples while public schools, by law have to educate apples, oranges, bananas and rotten tomatoes.

 

[Foxfyre]

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The fact is that Parochial schools do a better job of educating kids than do public schools in almost every category.

The fact is that secular private schools do a better job of educating kids than do most parochial schools and almost all public schools.

The fact is that homeschooled kids are getting a far superior education than all the other groups.

The fact is, when our elected leaders who are using the people's money to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes send THEIR kids to the same public schools they force on the rest of us, THEN I might believe they give a damn about whether the public schools are doing a good job of education. Until then, our liberal friends seem unable to see that the bureaucracy is swallowing up almost all of the money with very little going to actually educate kids.

We are already presumably spending more per capita on education than almost any other country and are getting some of the worst results. That suggests we should get the Federal government out of education altogether and return the system to the local communities and school boards that once provided our school kids with a world class education on a par with or that exceeded just about everybody else.

The most frustrating thing about discvussing this with liberals is that they will not see what is, but think if we just throw more money after the bad, that will fix the problem plus any of us who oppose putting more federal funding into bad education are accused of wanting to stop educating our kids.

It's all apples and oranges

Private schools get to select their apples while public schools, by law have to educate apples, oranges, bananas and rotten tomatoes.

And yet before the Federal government and teacher's unions inserted ithemselves into public education, we still had one of if not the very best education system in the world despite all those applies, oranges, and rotten tomatoes.

That should be a huge wake up call for everybody, most especially the left. I think most on the right are quite aware of that indisputable fact.

 

[Ernie S.]

Wow, I must say that is an impressive Google

I guess you do have a point. What do those 25 countries that do better in Math than the US have on common? They all have MORE government involvement in their education system

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

There is very little correlation between money spent and quality of education. Results would appear to be more related to parental involvement, a student's economic status and, yes, that dirty word, race. Read more here

Which public school district spends the most taxpayer money per student? One in Beverly Hills, perhaps? Or one in the swanky Park Avenue area of Manhattan?

Actually, it’s a district in Camden, N.J., according to new Census data on public school spending. Best known for urban blight and local corruption, Camden has an unemployment rate of 17 percent and 35 percent of its 80,000 inhabitants live below the poverty line. Fifty percent of residents are black, 15.5 percent white, 2.6 percent Asian; 10,000 people are crammed into each square mile. In 2008, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ranked it as the most dangerous city in America.

Camden High School, with an enrollment of 1,200 students, has less than a 40 percent graduation rate, and the former district chief of security Thomas Hewes-Eddinger has called it a “mini-jail.” Yet the district spends $23,356 per student, more than twice the national average.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

Come back if you decide to be truthful.

If you wish to bleat party mantras, you're dismissed.

Standard Disclaimer: Los Angeles has near the highest level of per pupil spending in the nation. It ranks near the bottom for scholastic performance.

 

[Foxfyre]

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

Come back if you decide to be truthful.

If you wish to bleat party mantras, you're dismissed.

Standard Disclaimer: Los Angeles has near the highest level of per pupil spending in the nation. It ranks near the bottom for scholastic performance.

And Washington DC has the HIGHEST level of per pupil spending in the nation and I believe ranks at the absolute bottom for scholastic performance. Plus I believe NONE of our Congressmen and/or Presidents send their kids to public school there, or if anybody does it is pretty darn rare.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The United States is one of the few nations with compulsory education. If we look at Japan, not only is education NOT compulsory, children must compete for available spots in the public schools.

Education is a privilege, not a right, certainly not a duty.

 

[Foxfyre]

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

There is very little correlation between money spent and quality of education. Results would appear to be more related to parental involvement, a student's economic status and, yes, that dirty word, race. Read more here

Which public school district spends the most taxpayer money per student? One in Beverly Hills, perhaps? Or one in the swanky Park Avenue area of Manhattan?

Actually, it’s a district in Camden, N.J., according to new Census data on public school spending. Best known for urban blight and local corruption, Camden has an unemployment rate of 17 percent and 35 percent of its 80,000 inhabitants live below the poverty line. Fifty percent of residents are black, 15.5 percent white, 2.6 percent Asian; 10,000 people are crammed into each square mile. In 2008, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ranked it as the most dangerous city in America.

Camden High School, with an enrollment of 1,200 students, has less than a 40 percent graduation rate, and the former district chief of security Thomas Hewes-Eddinger has called it a “mini-jail.” Yet the district spends $23,356 per student, more than twice the national average.

Which probably is one of the huge reasons the red states so dramatically out perform the blue states in education. There will be exceptions of course, but typically most conservatives are Republican and they don't look to the government to feed their kids or pass out condoms to them or provide remedial instruction and they do provide parental involvement to minimize the indoctrination left leaning public schools do to the kids.

 

[rightwinger]

how could they possible have more government involvement than the United States? We have virtually 100% government operated system.

One thing the do is let the money follow the child instead of forcing children into bad schools. If schools do a bad job, then they get no students and no money.

The US has thousands of independent school districts operating to different standards. Some school systems are well funded and offer fine educations. Other schools slash funding to a bare minimum and try to reduce education to Read'n, Rit'n and Rithmatic. These schools, in what we like to call Red States historically lag other schools in the nation in their quality of education

You really REALLY ought to do some reading before you post sometimes:

When it come to excellence in education, red states rule—at least according to a panel of experts assembled by Tina Brown’s Newsweek.

Using a set of indicators ranging from graduation rate to college admissions and SAT scores, the panel reviewed data from high schools all over the country to find the best public schools in the country.

The results make depressing reading for the teacher unions: The very best public high schools in the country are heavily concentrated in red states.

Read more: Republican States Have The Best Public Schools In The Country, By A Long Shot - Business Insider

Since we are talking Math and Science. Which States perform the best in Math and Science?

Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
New Hampshire
New York

And which perform the worst?

Mississippi
West Virginia
Louisiana
Alabama
New Mexico

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/11/state-education-rankings-_n_894528.html