What do you understand about FDR? Did FDR want a war with Japan? For answers, check here

[Robert W]

The book is not factual and is universally accepted as conspiracy bullshit.

You prove why Democrats are extremely dangerous to this nation. His book is 100 percent factual.

 

[Robert W]

You can't realistically expect the Navy in Hawaii to remain on "full alert" for four months

I would say enough alert. I have not addressed your point of four months.

 

[otto105]

You prove why Democrats are extremely dangerous to this nation. His book is 100 percent factual.

Not

 

[Robert W]

Not

How can you judge a book you never read?

 

[gipper]

I would say enough alert. I have not addressed your point of four months.

It’s not just Democrats who can’t believe the truth about FDR. Many Rs think the same way. They’ve been conditioned to support the state.

 

[Robert W]

It’s not just Democrats who can’t believe the truth about FDR. Many Rs think the same way. They’ve been conditioned to support the state.

Here is a person well worth studying. And he and I have debated in our past.

 

[whitehall]

I would say enough alert. I have not addressed your point of four months.

What does that mean? FDR had a chance to get the Pearl Harbor fleet to a safer anchorage in California but he refused. The carriers that might be crucial to a navy war were conveniently at sea but the old dinosaur battlewagons were convenient targets parked hull to hull. The most important point is that the FDR administration absorbed the media into a government propaganda network and if there were any investigative reporters left they were quickly arrested by Hoover's G-Men.

 

[Robert W]

What does that mean? FDR had a chance to get the Pearl Harbor fleet to a safer anchorage in California but he refused. The carriers that might be crucial to a navy war were conveniently at sea but the old dinosaur battlewagons were convenient targets parked hull to hull. The most important point is that the FDR administration absorbed the media into a government propaganda network and if there were any investigative reporters left they were quickly arrested by Hoover's G-Men.

FDR pulled the fleet from CA and from WA to put them in the target range of the Japanese. He loved war. However FDR did not like blacks at all.

 

[AZrailwhale]

What does that mean? FDR had a chance to get the Pearl Harbor fleet to a safer anchorage in California but he refused. The carriers that might be crucial to a navy war were conveniently at sea but the old dinosaur battlewagons were convenient targets parked hull to hull. The most important point is that the FDR administration absorbed the media into a government propaganda network and if there were any investigative reporters left they were quickly arrested by Hoover's G-Men.

You ignore the fact that before Pearl Harbor, Carriers were secondary ships. The decisive arm was the battle line composed of battleships. That's why the Japanese plan concentrated on the battleships, not the carriers which they knew were at sea thanks to a Japanese spy or the cruisers, destroyers or auxiliary ships. Carriers were used for recon and the protection of the battleships often by attacking the opposing carriers. If you look at the armament of the Japanese aircraft at Pearl, it was designed to sink battleships. Special armor piercing bombs converted from 14-inch battleship shells and torpedoes with powerful warheads designed to penetrate the heavy armor on battleships.

 

[otto105]

How can you judge a book you never read?

'Day of Deceit': On Dec. 7, Did We Know We Knew?

 

[Mushroom]

Sure can tell you are a loyal Democrat.

Gee, great response.

You know, it's funny whenever I read a response like that. Most people actually scream I am some kind of radical Far-Right Republican. Then others like you scream I am a Democrat. However, all that ever really shows is how far up their own arse somebody had their own head.

And I noticed, you still gave absolutely no verifiable reference. What is it about people who start screaming insults when asked for references? Upset because we will not simply take your word for something and suck down anything you claim?

Come on, once again. How about a verifiable reference to your claim? Because if it was real, then we should be able to validate that somewhere.

 

[Mushroom]

The book you refer to is fully documented and accurate.

Yet nobody seems to be able to point out a verifiable reference. Amazing.

 

[Mushroom]

The book is not factual and is universally accepted as conspiracy bullshit.

Of course it is. Notice they can not provide any kind of references at all, just scream insults.

 

[Mushroom]

'Day of Deceit': On Dec. 7, Did We Know We Knew?

I love the fact that in the book, he claimed that the Japanese Fleet was constantly breaking radio silence. When in reality, the radio rooms were locked up, and many had their transmit keys locked up. They were in complete radio blackout, a trick the US copied when they sent their forces to Midway the next year.

 

[Mushroom]

FDR had a chance to get the Pearl Harbor fleet to a safer anchorage in California but he refused.

Do you remember why they were there in the first place?

The entire reason most of the fleet was moved to Hawaii was because everybody expected the first attack to happen in the Philippines. And if the fleet had remained in California, that would have been a distance of just over 7,000 miles away. That is over 8 days travel time, and they could not have maintained that the entire time. That was the extreme range or exceeded the range of every Battleship the US had, and almost every other ship. That means that after steaming at 35 miles per hour, they would have arrived with their fuel bunkers dry )if they even made it there).

Oh, they could have taken their own fuel supply, only one problem. The top speed of our fastest fuel ships was 20 mph. Now, that 8 days to respond to an attack is over 14 days.

However, the distance from Hawaii to the Philippines is just about 5,500 miles. That is just over 6 days, and the fleet still would have had enough fuel in the bunkers for combat operations until the fuelers arrived.

In other words, if the attacks had actually gone as all of the experts and war plans had thought, this would have meant the time to respond would have been over twice as long as it really was by moving the fleet to Hawaii.

Big fact, the US fleet mostly was in California. That is until 1940, when the threat of Japan invading the Philippines caused them to move that fleet to Hawaii so it was closer to where the conflict would be. Because that fleet an additional 2,000 miles farther West would have been of no use if Japan had attacked as everybody thought.

 

[Mr Natural]

Japan attacked us. They needed to be put in their place.

 

[Mushroom]

Carriers were secondary ships. The decisive arm was the battle line composed of battleships.

Even Admiral Yamamoto thought that, and most consider him the greatest Admiral in the war.

Not even the Japanese at the time saw carriers as effective ways to take out battleships, they were for use in attacking land targets and other carriers.

And want an idea how effective aircraft actually were at attacking battleships? Here is a list of all the battleships sunk by aircraft in WWII that were actually at sea and not tied up in a harbor.

The IJN Hiei (which was in reality an upgunned cruiser)
The IJN Musashi (attacked by over 90 aircraft)
HNS Prince of Wales (attacked by over 50 aircraft)
Italian Battleship Roma (actually struck by multiple radio controlled bombs by Germany the very day Italy surrendered)
IJN Yamato (attacked by over 300 aircraft)

As can be seen, it took huge amounts of aircraft to sink battleships in WWII. And at that time, as you said carriers were still considered to be support craft. Like almost all other military equipment, their job was to keep the carriers of the other side busy as the battleships pounded away at each other. During WWII, the most effective way to take out a battleship was with another battleship or other big gun ship. Submarines were secondary because they could damage them so other ships could respond and finish them off.

I think most can not comprehend the difference between sinking a ship while it is in a harbor, and how much more difficult that task is when it is actually at sea. And notice, not a single US Battleship was lost to aircraft that was not in port.

 

[Robert W]

You ignore the fact that before Pearl Harbor, Carriers were secondary ships. The decisive arm was the battle line composed of battleships. That's why the Japanese plan concentrated on the battleships, not the carriers which they knew were at sea thanks to a Japanese spy or the cruisers, destroyers or auxiliary ships. Carriers were used for recon and the protection of the battleships often by attacking the opposing carriers. If you look at the armament of the Japanese aircraft at Pearl, it was designed to sink battleships. Special armor piercing bombs converted from 14-inch battleship shells and torpedoes with powerful warheads designed to penetrate the heavy armor on battleships.

YES, at that time the value of Carriers was the airplanes and those can be easily seen and shot at. And once they drop bombs and use up ammo, they are simply moving targets. Our Navy was not really pleased with our Aircraft Carriers.

 

[Robert W]

Gee, great response.

You know, it's funny whenever I read a response like that. Most people actually scream I am some kind of radical Far-Right Republican. Then others like you scream I am a Democrat. However, all that ever really shows is how far up their own arse somebody had their own head.

And I noticed, you still gave absolutely no verifiable reference. What is it about people who start screaming insults when asked for references? Upset because we will not simply take your word for something and suck down anything you claim?

Come on, once again. How about a verifiable reference to your claim? Because if it was real, then we should be able to validate that somewhere.

I did not lay into you. Why did you lay into me? I said what I said because you seem to me to want to defend FDR. All you had to tell me is no, you do not defend FDR.

My claim only amounts to telling posters here that an important book is out that explains FDR.

 

[Mushroom]

Our Navy was not really pleased with our Aircraft Carriers.

Actually, they were. They were simply using them in a very different way (as did every other fleet at the time).

Before WWII, the main use for a carrier was actually transporting aircraft. If you want to move fighters to most locations, that has to happen in one of two ways. You send them by freighter disassembled in crates. That means extra time to reassemble and test them, and hope nothing broke on the way. Plus you still have to get the pilots there.

Or you send a carrier with the aircraft and crews on board. This was the preferred method, as the planes were guaranteed to work and they had their air crews with them when they arrived. That is what every one of our carriers in the Pacific had been busy doing when the war started.

The other important mission was scouting. Planes were simply more effective at scouting than ships were, they could cover a larger distance with a better view of the area. And their scouting aircraft were better than the ones the Battleships carried.

And finally, attacking the carriers of the other side. Because odds are, if a "conventional battle" like Admiral Yamamoto had envisioned had actually happened, here is what the result would have been.

The Battleships fighting it out at the battle line, along with cruisers and destroyers. And the carriers far behind them, using their aircraft to go after the carriers of the other side. At sea under combat conditions, aircraft are actually pretty poor at sinking battleships. So they would have been far more effective going after the carriers of the other side, which would be lightly defended at best as most of the surface combatants were off slugging away at each other. And if the surface battle went against them, the carriers were far enough away they could retreat before they were engaged.

However, rather quickly the US realized that was not a good idea. So they refused to play by the "traditional playbook", and threw it away and made their own plans. Keep all of your ships as far away as possible from the battleships of the other side, save the battleships for taking islands and smaller surface groups.

And that is exactly how the Battle of Midway played out. The US battle line was carrier and land based aircraft, 8 cruisers, and 15 destroyers. The Japanese were 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, and 12 destroyers.

The rest of the invasion force? 2 more carriers, 5 battleships, 6 cruisers, and 10 destroyers. None of which participated in the battle at all as they were too far away.

That was one of the beauties of Midway, in essence the Japanese were ambushed. They were not prepared to fight, and did not have their fleet arranged in a way to fight. They thought they were ambushing Midway with carrier based attacks on the island, and would have plenty of time to assemble their entire fleet before American forces arrived. But in reality, we knew they were coming and ambushed them long before they were ready. In fact, a key part of the US victory was the time lost by the Japanese fleet in the confusion their attacks caused, and their having to change out armament loads from ground attack to sea attack.

But if the Japanese had thought to assemble their entire fleet in advance, then the US would have been doomed. As the first air attacks went after the Japanese carriers, their surface fleet would have gone straight for the US carriers. And without battleships of their own to fend them off, they would have been forced to retreat or be sunk by the Japanese battleships and cruisers.