What do you understand about FDR? Did FDR want a war with Japan? For answers, check here

[Mushroom]

Hawaii had to be on full alert long before that stuff you blamed Marshall for.

Most of our forces at the time were on alert. However, they were expecting something completely different than what actually happened.

All of the experts in the Pentagon expected the opening attacks to be in the Philippines. The very fact that most of the Japanese Navy "went dark" and seemed to vanish told them an attack was coming.

However, none of the experts expected an attack at Hawaii. They thought that if it was to be attacked, it would be in the form of sabotage. So the forces there were set up to fight sabotage and infiltration, not an air attack.

 

[Mushroom]

So you accept FDR made a hell of a mistake by waiting so long to go to war?

The US was not ready for war in 1939. It was not a lot more prepared at the end of 1941.

In 1939 when war broke out in Europe, the total US armed forces were just over 334,000. And much of 1940 and 1941 was spent expanding the training system so they could increase that. By the end of 1940 that had risen to 458,000. And by the end of 1941 it was at just over 1.8 million. One can not just wave their hand and produce more forces. It takes time and location in order to train as many as were needed.

 

[Robert W]

The US was not ready for war in 1939. It was not a lot more prepared at the end of 1941.

In 1939 when war broke out in Europe, the total US armed forces were just over 334,000. And much of 1940 and 1941 was spent expanding the training system so they could increase that. By the end of 1940 that had risen to 458,000. And by the end of 1941 it was at just over 1.8 million. One can not just wave their hand and produce more forces. It takes time and location in order to train as many as were needed.

Yes that is what I believe. Apparently so did Japan.

 

[Robert W]

The US was not ready for war in 1939. It was not a lot more prepared at the end of 1941.

In 1939 when war broke out in Europe, the total US armed forces were just over 334,000. And much of 1940 and 1941 was spent expanding the training system so they could increase that. By the end of 1940 that had risen to 458,000. And by the end of 1941 it was at just over 1.8 million. One can not just wave their hand and produce more forces. It takes time and location in order to train as many as were needed.

Seldom is the USA really prepared for war. It was not when I was in the Army in 1962-64. I doubt it is ready now.

 

[DudleySmith]

We built 26 aircraft carriers in 4 years then. We can't even meet peacetime recruiting goals now, with double the population we had then.

 

[Robert W]

We built 26 aircraft carriers in 4 years then. We cant' even meet peacetime recruiting goals now, with double the population we had then.

I am aware of that. Good catch.

 

[Robert W]

Sorry, but that is complete and utter coprolite.

Because Japan was unquestionably going to attack the Philippines. There was no way in hell Japan was going to attack the British possessions and the Dutch East Indies while leaving those islands alone. Especially as the US was in the starting phase of a massive military buildup there.

The moment they attacked the Philippines, it would have been war.

True about the Philippines. FDR was against a reluctant congress. In fact the bombing of Pearl handed him permission to wage war.

 

[Robert W]

Most of our forces at the time were on alert. However, they were expecting something completely different than what actually happened.

All of the experts in the Pentagon expected the opening attacks to be in the Philippines. The very fact that most of the Japanese Navy "went dark" and seemed to vanish told them an attack was coming.

However, none of the experts expected an attack at Hawaii. They thought that if it was to be attacked, it would be in the form of sabotage. So the forces there were set up to fight sabotage and infiltration, not an air attack.

Had there been say 20 ships at Pearl Harbor, true. But there was about 130 ships in that tiny port.

 

[Mushroom]

Had there been say 20 ships at Pearl Harbor, true. But there was about 130 ships in that tiny port.

The majority of them support vessels. The target was not them but the capitol ships. And there were less than 60 "warships" there, mostly destroyers.

And the base was hardly "small", it is over 21 square miles. With the many port areas it was actually one of the largest Navy bases the US had.

Without the battleships, the destroyers and cruisers were no threat. Just look at the troubles we had later in places like Guadalcanal without them.

True about the Philippines. FDR was against a reluctant congress. In fact the bombing of Pearl handed him permission to wage war.

The Philippines were US Territory. The invasion there as much as Pearl Harbor (then add in Guam) were more than enough. Not to mention that Congress had no choice, Japan declared war against us. Really all they did was recognize that, then with the declaration of war enabled the country to go to a 100% military stance when it came to our industry.

Something few other than Admiral Yamamoto recognized would be the ultimate doom of Japan. He was almost exactly right when he said he would dominate for about 6 months, after that the outcome looked doubtful. He had lived in the US, so had a damned good idea what our production capability was.

 

[Robert W]

The majority of them support vessels. The target was not them but the capitol ships. And there were less than 60 "warships" there, mostly destroyers.

And the base was hardly "small", it is over 21 square miles. With the many port areas it was actually one of the largest Navy bases the US had.

Without the battleships, the destroyers and cruisers were no threat. Just look at the troubles we had later in places like Guadalcanal without them.



The Philippines were US Territory. The invasion there as much as Pearl Harbor (then add in Guam) were more than enough. Not to mention that Congress had no choice, Japan declared war against us. Really all they did was recognize that, then with the declaration of war enabled the country to go to a 100% military stance when it came to our industry.

Something few other than Admiral Yamamoto recognized would be the ultimate doom of Japan. He was almost exactly right when he said he would dominate for about 6 months, after that the outcome looked doubtful. He had lived in the US, so had a damned good idea what our production capability was.

I can tell you just love to argue. So let's go.
Last time I checked there had been 130 ships apx in that harbor. The Japanese missed the Carriers and why? Sure, then America colonized many places. Anyway this is about FDR who followed Commander Cullum's laid out plans.

 

[Mushroom]

Last time I checked there had been 130 ships apx in that harbor. The Japanese missed the Carriers and why?

Yes, most of them support ships. Here is a full list, look for yourself:

Ships Present at Pearl Harbor

The commissioned U.S. Navy ships and non-commissioned district craft (both self-propelled and non-self-propelled) in the list below are sorted by type and hull number. Pearl Harbor is defined as the area inside the nets guarding the harbor entrance. Ships marked with an asterisk (*) were within...

www.history.navy.mil

Notice, the vast majority are support ships and not combat ships. And that means anything not a battleship, cruiser, or destroyer. Not sure what you think a bunch of tugs, minesweepers, tenders, oilers, and lighters are going to do in combat.

And as I said, Pearl Harbor is actually pretty big. Yes, the Battleships were at Ford Island.

See all those other inlets? That is where the other ships were at. All those oilers, tenders, minesweepers, and the like. None of which are combat ships.

You said you were in the Army. Consider those the 5 ton trucks, fuel tankers, logistics vehicles, and Jeeps that help keep the tanks and APCs moving. They are a critical part, but not a combat element. The Navy is no different. For every combat vessel, there are a dozen or more support vessels.

As for why the Japanese "Missed" the carriers, almost everybody should know that.

USS Saratoga (CV-3) was pulling into San Diego after finishing her sea trials after over 6 months in the yard in Washington for an overhaul. They were supposed to embark her air group the next week and return to Pearl.

USS Lexington (CV-2) was enroute to Midway on a ferry mission to deliver 18 Vindicator dive bombers. They were 500 knots away and when the attack happened were ordered to return to Pearl.

USS Enterprise (CV-6) was returning to Pearl after delivering a dozen Wildcats to Wake.

USS Langley (formerly CV-1, at that time seaplane tender AV-3) was in the Philippines. But she was no longer a carrier, she had been converted to a seaplane tender in 1936. But there were already plans to convert her back to a carrier.

There, that is the location of all the carriers in the Pacific. Most of our carriers were already busy in the Atlantic, patrolling convoy routes and other areas against German subs.

But why they missed the carriers should be obvious. For the last three months before the attack they were constantly in use, conducting their primary peacetime role of ferrying aircraft to other bases in the region. Saratoga was scheduled to deliver fighters to the Philippines along with the Enterprise if war had not broken out. They only returned to port long enough to refuel, do basic maintenance, then load on more aircraft before leaving again on their next ferry mission.

And no, I do not argue, I debate. There is a huge difference, and in case you did not notice I present a lot of facts and not opinions. But if you question me, feel free to look up what the carriers were doing at the time. It is hardly a secret.

 

[DudleySmith]

1938 United States House of Representatives elections - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"President Franklin D. Roosevelt had faced opposition from conservative Democrats and the Republicans in Congress since the beginning of his presidency. Representatives Edward E. Cox, Howard W. Smith, and other Southern Democrats opposed Roosevelt's policies with the Republicans, but were in the minority. Vice President John Nance Garner pushed for Roosevelt to support more conservative policies. However, after the election the Democratic majority was maintained, but around forty Democratic representatives were unreliable votes for Roosevelt which allowed conservatives to block his policies.[9]"

USS Hornet (CV-8) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Hornet carried the Doolittle raid.

 

[Robert W]

Yes, most of them support ships. Here is a full list, look for yourself:

Ships Present at Pearl Harbor

The commissioned U.S. Navy ships and non-commissioned district craft (both self-propelled and non-self-propelled) in the list below are sorted by type and hull number. Pearl Harbor is defined as the area inside the nets guarding the harbor entrance. Ships marked with an asterisk (*) were within...

www.history.navy.mil

Notice, the vast majority are support ships and not combat ships. And that means anything not a battleship, cruiser, or destroyer. Not sure what you think a bunch of tugs, minesweepers, tenders, oilers, and lighters are going to do in combat.

And as I said, Pearl Harbor is actually pretty big. Yes, the Battleships were at Ford Island.

See all those other inlets? That is where the other ships were at. All those oilers, tenders, minesweepers, and the like. None of which are combat ships.

You said you were in the Army. Consider those the 5 ton trucks, fuel tankers, logistics vehicles, and Jeeps that help keep the tanks and APCs moving. They are a critical part, but not a combat element. The Navy is no different. For every combat vessel, there are a dozen or more support vessels.

As for why the Japanese "Missed" the carriers, almost everybody should know that.

USS Saratoga (CV-3) was pulling into San Diego after finishing her sea trials after over 6 months in the yard in Washington for an overhaul. They were supposed to embark her air group the next week and return to Pearl.

USS Lexington (CV-2) was enroute to Midway on a ferry mission to deliver 18 Vindicator dive bombers. They were 500 knots away and when the attack happened were ordered to return to Pearl.

USS Enterprise (CV-6) was returning to Pearl after delivering a dozen Wildcats to Wake.

USS Langley (formerly CV-1, at that time seaplane tender AV-3) was in the Philippines. But she was no longer a carrier, she had been converted to a seaplane tender in 1936. But there were already plans to convert her back to a carrier.

There, that is the location of all the carriers in the Pacific. Most of our carriers were already busy in the Atlantic, patrolling convoy routes and other areas against German subs.

But why they missed the carriers should be obvious. For the last three months before the attack they were constantly in use, conducting their primary peacetime role of ferrying aircraft to other bases in the region. Saratoga was scheduled to deliver fighters to the Philippines along with the Enterprise if war had not broken out. They only returned to port long enough to refuel, do basic maintenance, then load on more aircraft before leaving again on their next ferry mission.

And no, I do not argue, I debate. There is a huge difference, and in case you did not notice I present a lot of facts and not opinions. But if you question me, feel free to look up what the carriers were doing at the time. It is hardly a secret.

I rate your report as premium. It shows over 100 actual ships with guns on them. I believe over 110. Still it shows as you said, support ships that do not fire guns then.
Have you been to Pearl Harbor? I have been there and my judgment is from seeing the port. I once worked on ports in construction.

 

[Robert W]

The majority of them support vessels. The target was not them but the capitol ships. And there were less than 60 "warships" there, mostly destroyers.

And the base was hardly "small", it is over 21 square miles. With the many port areas it was actually one of the largest Navy bases the US had.

Without the battleships, the destroyers and cruisers were no threat. Just look at the troubles we had later in places like Guadalcanal without them.

OK, let's try to look at now.
As of May 24, 2024, Naval Station Pearl Harbor is home to 25 surface ships and submarines. The base also provides support services, maintenance, training, and berthing for these ships. Pearl Harbor can accommodate the largest ships in the fleet, including dry dock services.

Ships need places to tie up. Anyway, fun as this may be, FDR wanted war. And he was getting into it shipping war planes to Russia and busting ass for England. Germany might easily have wanted Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor at the time.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Had there been say 20 ships at Pearl Harbor, true. But there was about 130 ships in that tiny port.

There were 28 combat vessels in Pearl that day including the 12 PT Boats, many of which were deck cargo on other vessels.

 

[AZrailwhale]

OK, let's try to look at now.
As of May 24, 2024, Naval Station Pearl Harbor is home to 25 surface ships and submarines. The base also provides support services, maintenance, training, and berthing for these ships. Pearl Harbor can accommodate the largest ships in the fleet, including dry dock services.

Ships need places to tie up. Anyway, fun as this may be, FDR wanted war. And he was getting into it shipping war planes to Russia and busting ass for England. Germany might easily have wanted Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor at the time.

FDR wanted war WITH GERMANY. Japan was a distraction from that.

 

[Robert W]

FDR wanted war WITH GERMANY. Japan was a distraction from that.

FDR busted ass trying to get into that war with Germany.

 

[DudleySmith]

FDR wanted war WITH GERMANY. Japan was a distraction from that.

FDR wanted a strong military prepared before the inevitable. We were already engaged in a quasi war with Germany in the Atlantic.

 

[Robert W]

FDR wanted a strong military prepared before the inevitable. We were already engaged in a quasi war with Germany in the Atlantic.

He should have persuaded Congress. But he failed.

 

[otto105]

By accident. Being out of the depression was awesome as a child then.

It was no accident. That lifeline saved Britain.