What do you understand about FDR? Did FDR want a war with Japan? For answers, check here

[Robert W]

Gee, great response.

Why thank you sir.

 

[Mushroom]

I did not lay into you. Why did you lay into me? I said what I said because you seem to me to want to defend FDR. All you had to tell me is no, you do not defend FDR.

Uh-huh.

Sure can tell you are a loyal Democrat.

Sure you did. All I give a damn about in this topic is the reality of naval warfare at the time. I am pointing out simple facts, and if you notice backing them up with actual references.

Remember your complaints earlier about how many combat ships were at Pearl Harbor? You did the same thing, until I finally had enough and gave you the actual breakdown of all the ships there. And the final count, I was right. You were counting every single ship there as a "combat ship", including oilers, mine sweepers, troop transports, and tug boats. None of which mean anything in a surface action as none of those are warships.

My claim only amounts to telling posters here that an important book is out that explains FDR.

"Important", yet you are not able to provide a single reference to back up the claims. If your book was so damned important, than it should be easy to provide other references that validate the claims in them.

I deal in facts, and nothing else. If something can not be backed up independently, then as far as I am concerned it is all moonbeams and backwash.

 

[Robert W]

Actually, they were. They were simply using them in a very different way (as did every other fleet at the time).

Before WWII, the main use for a carrier was actually transporting aircraft. If you want to move fighters to most locations, that has to happen in one of two ways. You send them by freighter disassembled in crates. That means extra time to reassemble and test them, and hope nothing broke on the way. Plus you still have to get the pilots there.

Or you send a carrier with the aircraft and crews on board. This was the preferred method, as the planes were guaranteed to work and they had their air crews with them when they arrived. That is what every one of our carriers in the Pacific had been busy doing when the war started.

The other important mission was scouting. Planes were simply more effective at scouting than ships were, they could cover a larger distance with a better view of the area. And their scouting aircraft were better than the ones the Battleships carried.

And finally, attacking the carriers of the other side. Because odds are, if a "conventional battle" like Admiral Yamamoto had envisioned had actually happened, here is what the result would have been.

The Battleships fighting it out at the battle line, along with cruisers and destroyers. And the carriers far behind them, using their aircraft to go after the carriers of the other side. At sea under combat conditions, aircraft are actually pretty poor at sinking battleships. So they would have been far more effective going after the carriers of the other side, which would be lightly defended at best as most of the surface combatants were off slugging away at each other. And if the surface battle went against them, the carriers were far enough away they could retreat before they were engaged.

However, rather quickly the US realized that was not a good idea. So they refused to play by the "traditional playbook", and threw it away and made their own plans. Keep all of your ships as far away as possible from the battleships of the other side, save the battleships for taking islands and smaller surface groups.

And that is exactly how the Battle of Midway played out. The US battle line was carrier and land based aircraft, 8 cruisers, and 15 destroyers. The Japanese were 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, and 12 destroyers.

The rest of the invasion force? 2 more carriers, 5 battleships, 6 cruisers, and 10 destroyers. None of which participated in the battle at all as they were too far away.

That was one of the beauties of Midway, in essence the Japanese were ambushed. They were not prepared to fight, and did not have their fleet arranged in a way to fight. They thought they were ambushing Midway with carrier based attacks on the island, and would have plenty of time to assemble their entire fleet before American forces arrived. But in reality, we knew they were coming and ambushed them long before they were ready. In fact, a key part of the US victory was the time lost by the Japanese fleet in the confusion their attacks caused, and their having to change out armament loads from ground attack to sea attack.

But if the Japanese had thought to assemble their entire fleet in advance, then the US would have been doomed. As the first air attacks went after the Japanese carriers, their surface fleet would have gone straight for the US carriers. And without battleships of their own to fend them off, they would have been forced to retreat or be sunk by the Japanese battleships and cruisers.

While the war had convinced Navy brass that airplanes were indeed essential, many senior naval officers believed aviation had little value to the fleet beyond scouting and observing the fall of shot for battleships.
But there were also forward-thinking naval officers who believed that ship-based aircraft would one day prove useful beyond their scouting roles. One was Commander Kenneth Whiting, a quiet, well-respected naval aviator who had commanded the Navy’s first aeronautic detachment when it deployed to France during World War I. Earlier in his career, as a young submarine skipper stationed in the Philippines, Whiting had made a name for himself by demonstrating that submarine crews could save themselves by exiting a submerged sub through a torpedo tube. Climbing aboard his submarine after it had surfaced, he simply remarked, “It’s easy.”

Seeking new challenges, Whiting was one of the first to join the nascent aviation branch and had the distinction of being the last naval aviator trained by Orville Wright. He was designated Naval Aviator No.16 in September 1914.

America’s First Aircraft Carrier

A century ago, the U.S. Navy commissioned the USS Langley—an ungainly new ship that would forever change military aviation.

airandspace.si.edu

 

[Robert W]

Uh-huh.



Sure you did. All I give a damn about in this topic is the reality of naval warfare at the time. I am pointing out simple facts, and if you notice backing them up with actual references.

Remember your complaints earlier about how many combat ships were at Pearl Harbor? You did the same thing, until I finally had enough and gave you the actual breakdown of all the ships there. And the final count, I was right. You were counting every single ship there as a "combat ship", including oilers, mine sweepers, troop transports, and tug boats. None of which mean anything in a surface action as none of those are warships.



"Important", yet you are not able to provide a single reference to back up the claims. If your book was so damned important, than it should be easy to provide other references that validate the claims in them.

I deal in facts, and nothing else. If something can not be backed up independently, then as far as I am concerned it is all moonbeams and backwash.

I will get back to you if I ever get butt hurt.

 

[DudleySmith]

FDR chose General George Marshall as COS over more qualified Officers who had a better record?

Like who?

And it was Patton who lobbied for Ike to get leap-frogged into Allied Commander in Europe, over himself even, an indication of his character as compared with MacArthur's egotism. It's clear from the record Marshall's administrative and political savvy did just fine; we won the war in a very short time, on all fronts, as well as FDR's, despite the factions in both Parties determined to lose the war rather than give up petty backstabbing and sacrifice their own personal interests.

 

[DudleySmith]

Care to actually explain that bit of silliness?

As I said, I do not argue. I debate. Which means presenting actual evidence and not just making flippant claims without anything to back them up. However, you appear to love just making claims and backing them up with more claims.

It's conspiracy theory crap and in the wrong forum. It's just about bashing Democrats, which is fine but there s plenty of real life stuff that works, no need for this idiot rubbish that has been shot down several million times already all over the web.

 

[DudleySmith]

You can't realistically expect the Navy in Hawaii to remain on "full alert" for four months when the FDR administration didn't seem to be on full alert itself. When the shit hit the fan it was Marshall who had a chance to take the initiative but Marshall was a bureaucrat drone who hadn't taken the initiative in his entire military career. After the attack FDR quickly put the American media under military rule and any criticism was quickly delt with.

You clearly have zero idea of the amount of traffic going on. You really think FDR and Marshall should have been poring over it all 24/7, and because they weren't it was a giant evul commie plot or something? lol ridiculous.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I love the fact that in the book, he claimed that the Japanese Fleet was constantly breaking radio silence. When in reality, the radio rooms were locked up, and many had their transmit keys locked up. They were in complete radio blackout, a trick the US copied when they sent their forces to Midway the next year.

Not only that but their Chief radiomen were in the Inland Sea sending bogus messages. Radio operators can tell the “fist” of other operators sending Morse.

 

[Mushroom]

Not only that but their Chief radiomen were in the Inland Sea sending bogus messages. Radio operators can tell the “fist” of other operators sending Morse.

To be honest, I always tend to suspect just a tad amount of racism when dealing with topics like this.

The US was actually quite sophisticated when it came to "COMSEC", or Communications Security even in that era. Not only like the Japanese able to use complete radio blackouts (Doolittle Raid, Midway), but even the use of little known languages.

For example, most do not know that the first "Codetalkers" the US Army used were actually in WWI. The Germans were proving themselves adept at not only intercepting American signals, but breaking their codes. So to avoid this, they started using Choctaw, Cherokee, and Lakota Indians, and had them invent their own code in addition to using a language almost nobody not of their tribes spoke.

This was repeated in WWII with most famously Navajo, but also native Hopi, and Comanche speakers among others. Some officially, others unofficially when a Division would realize they had two natives who could speak the same obscure language (like Basque). Once again using a second code inside of the first, so even if they somehow captured another member of the tribe (which did happen), the intercepts still made no sense.

And does anybody really think the Japanese were not as aware of COMSEC as the Americans were? That they could not coordinate and execute sophisticated battle plans while in complete radio silence? And we know they were sophisticated in their COMSEC, even using code words inside of a coded message. That is why even though we knew they were planning an attack in the middle of 1942 in early 1942, we had no idea where. Because even with the messages decoded, they only referred to the target island as "AF". And we had no idea what AF was. Finally in May, they set a "Canary Trap", where different messages were sent out from multiple bases in a code they knew the Japanese had broken. The one for Midway was saying that their water purification system had failed and they needed a replacement immediately.

And hit paydirt when they intercepted an order ("AF is short on water") for the landing forces to bring extra water and their own purification systems. This was the confirmation that Midway was the target, so the US set up to ambush the attackers. If the Japanese did not have a sophisticated COMSEC system in place, the US would have known the destination months earlier. And that is not the only time that happened, but it is the most spectacular example from the war.

And I think many like to believe the Japanese were unsophisticated barbarians, and that kind of thing was beyond their capability. Nobody seems to question that the Soviets, British, Germans, Italians, and most other nations could conduct an attack with total surprise in a radio blackout. But for some reason they seem obsessed with claiming that was beyond the capabilities of the Japanese.

 

[DudleySmith]

Obscure languages are perfect of one time pads, which are pretty simple and basic but easily learned,

One-time pad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gipper]

Yet nobody seems to be able to point out a verifiable reference. Amazing.

Read the book. It’s all there, to say nothing of all the well known incriminating evidence.

 

[Mushroom]

Read the book.

If the book and the claims in it had any validity, then one should be able to validate the claims from independent sources.

As apparently nobody can come up with any kind of confirmation from independent sources, I can only dismiss it as conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

[GLASNOST]

Did FDR want a war with Japan?

I say "yes" ..... and "no". I think he wanted war in Europe but because the American population didn't support that war, and even supported Hitler outright, so finding an excuse (or creating an excuse) gave him a "forced" upon declaration of war by Hitler. As I recall FDR had links to England through marriage (I may be wrong) and don't forget that Göring's wife was Swedish. So, getting into one war or avoiding another is interesting.

 

[Robert W]

I say "yes" ..... and "no". I think he wanted war in Europe but because the American population didn't support that war, and even supported Hitler outright, so finding an excuse (or creating an excuse) gave him a "forced" upon declaration of war by Hitler. As I recall FDR had links to England through marriage (I may be wrong) and don't forget that Göring's wife was Swedish. So, getting into one war or avoiding another is interesting.

Assuming all of that is true, it is new information for me. America did not want war. FDR worked with Churchill to get us deep in. Such as lend lease. Such as escorts of ships to England. A friend who now has passed to heaven told me he was in the Navy and he rose to Commander. But his early day he was enlisted and told me he was on ships that hunted the Germans submarines off our East Coast. We need a lot more data from those who truly was in that very distant war. He hunted the Submarines ahead of FDR talking he was in war.

 

[Robert W]

To be honest, I always tend to suspect just a tad amount of racism when dealing with topics like this.

How can this be about race? Why did you bring it up?

 

[Robert W]

If the book and the claims in it had any validity, then one should be able to validate the claims from independent sources.

As apparently nobody can come up with any kind of confirmation from independent sources, I can only dismiss it as conspiracy theory nonsense.

You have tried to shit all over the book. And by no means have you told us why you are the ultimate authority.

 

[GLASNOST]

..... America did not want war ....

This is one of those common but ambiguous statements that we see every day. Did the American population want to go to war? No. Can I prove it? As easy as pie. But did FDR want it? That's an entirely different subject. He did. The surpise attack on Pearl harbour was no surprise at all. FDR knew the Japs were on the way and that is why (according to the scholars) the best ships were a-sail.

 

[Robert W]

This is one of those common but ambiguous statements that we see every day. Did the American population want to go to war? No. Can I prove it? As easy as pie. But did FDR want it? That's an entirely different subject. He did.

Well said agreement to my own remarks. Thanks a bunch.

 

[GLASNOST]

Well said agreement to my own remarks. Thanks a bunch.

BTW: I refined my response if you scroll back to it.

 

[Robert W]

BTW: I refined my response if you scroll back to it.

Thanks. I recall though how the Japanese went against our Carriers and were successful sinking them.

Did the Japanese sink any U.S. aircraft carriers?


Aircraft Carriers

USS Wasp: American aircraft carrier sunk on 15 September 1942 by Japanese submarine I-19 while escorting transports to Guadalcanal. USS Yorktown: American aircraft carrier sunk on 7 June 1942 by Japanese submarine I-168, following damage from carrier-based aircraft during the Battle of Midway.