Were Most Of America's Founding Fathers - Christians

[frigidweirdo]

Christianity, because it was dying out in 1776 like the research said . 17% church attendance in 1776 is very believable.

Yes, believable, but that doesn't mean only 17% believed in Christianity, which is what we're talking about.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Yes, believable, but that doesn't mean only 17% believed in Christianity, which is what we're talking about.

NFBW: Don’t we need to resolve what it means to be a Christian? A public practicing Christian. If you say we must count private Christian’s I must ask you why. END2210022001

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Christian or not a Christian,

NFBW: Is your answer “not a Christian” if I follow your decision to post this fact about Jefferson’s belief.

“He arranged his chosen passages to create a chronological account of Jesus' life, parables, and moral teachings. He omitted passages that he deemed insupportable through reason or that he believed were later embellishments, including references to Jesus’ miracles and his resurrection.​

Can Jefferson be a Christian comparable to today’s Trump Christian’s if he did not believe Jesus performed miracles and never resurrected from the dead?
END2210022014

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Reporting indicates? That makes me laugh, CNN or MSNBC reporting?

That was “Emails, records and reporting indicate”

Therefore physical evidence exists plus the fake electors are real state officials human beings that actually put their signatures on falsified election documents and sent copies to the National Archives and tried to get them in front of Mike Pence on Jan6.

You cannot make the fake electors from Michigan Wisconsin Arizona New Mexico Pennsylvania Georgia and Nevada go away. The stupid Republican party officials signed their names to forged documents and then tried to get them to Mike Pence on Jan6. They were sent to the national archives. All at the request of the Trump campaign. That makes Trump the ring leader. Just how stupid do you think they were to send forgeries to the national archives. Sign their name to a forgery where they claim that you they represent the winner of the state when they represented the actual loser of the state. END2210022109

 

[whutTHEYsay]

fake electors? yet in compliance with Article 2 section 1 of the constitution

How are these in compliance with Article 2 section 1 of the constitution

The nine-member Jan. 6 committee said it has obtained information that groups of individuals met on Dec. 14, 2020 — more than a month after Election Day — in the seven states. The individuals, according to the congressional investigation, then submitted fake slates of Electoral College votes for Trump. Then “alternate electors” from those seven states sent those certificates to Congress, where several of Trump’s advisers used them to justify delaying or blocking the certification of the election during the joint session of Congress on Jan. 6, 2021.​

​

Jan. 6 Committee Subpoenas 2 Fake Trump Electors From Pennsylvania

Lisa Patton, a former staffer for the Donald Trump for President 2020 campaign, and Bill Bachenberg, founder of an outdoor adventure camp for veterans in Lackawanna County, were subpoenaed to appear for a deposition before the committee on Feb. 25.

keystonenewsroom.com

 

[whutTHEYsay]

you would just disagree

Cut and paste a small excerpt so I know what I need to disagree with.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

One could say Jefferson was the best Christian to the slaves.

based on his life and writings one should say Jefferson was the best rational theist to the slaves because he was not a Christian.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

The white Europeans would have been Christian. But what does "Christian" mean?

It could go from baptized, married in a church, buried in a Christian cemetery, to being a firm, firm believer and preaching

What is the minimum doctrine in the mind of one who should be considered being a firm, firm believer?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Christian or not a Christian, geez,

Rationalism​

Despite the evangelical, emotional challenge to reason underlying the “Great Awakening,” by the end of the colonial period, Protestant rationalism remained the dominant religious force among the leaders of most of the colonies: “The similarity of belief among the educated gentry in all colonies is notable. . . . [There] seem to be evidence that some form of rationalism—Unitarian, deist, or otherwise—was often present in the religion of gentlemen leaders by the late colonial period.”

Religion in Colonial America: Trends, Regulations, and Beliefs

Learn about the religious landscape of colonial America to better understand religious freedom today.

www.facinghistory.org

Whether Unitarian, deist, or even Anglican/Congregational, rationalism focused on the ethical aspects of religion. Rationalism also discarded many “superstitious” aspects of the Christian liturgy (although many continued to believe in the human soul and in the afterlife). The political edge of this argument was that no human institution—religious or civil—could claim divine authority. In addition, in their search for God’s truths, rationalists such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin valued the study of nature (known as “natural religion”) over the Scriptures (or “revealed religion”).

 

[frigidweirdo]

NFBW: Don’t we need to resolve what it means to be a Christian? A public practicing Christian. If you say we must count private Christian’s I must ask you why. END2210022001

"private Christians" are still Christians. You don't need to go to church to believe in God, to believe in Jesus. That's why.

You can try and "win" this debate by changing reality, but it won't work.
I showed you that 6 million Britons go to church "at least once a month", but 60% of British people say they're Christians. The math doesn't add up, seeing how there are 65 million people in the UK.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What is the minimum doctrine in the mind of one who should be considered being a firm, firm believer?

You ask them "are you a Christian" and if they say "yes", then they're a Christian. Simples.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

You ask them "are you a Christian" and if they say "yes", then they're a Christian. Simples.

NFBW: So being a Christian is simply a matter of answering the question of whether or not you are one. There is no difference to being an atheist or Christian other than saying what you are if asked.

Given that. Why do white evangelical Christians and anti-Choice Catholics insist that we all accept a fundamental principle that AMERICA was created by one particular God, and America was founded by Christians and for Christians, and that Christianity is essential for American democracy to function and survive in order to please God, if being Christian is only a matter of saying you are a Christian?
END2210030211

 

[frigidweirdo]

NFBW: So being a Christian is simply a matter of answering the question of whether or not you are one. There is no difference to being an atheist or Christian other than saying what you are if asked.

Given that. Why do white evangelical Christians and anti-Choice Catholics insist that we all accept a fundamental principle that AMERICA was created by one particular God, and America was founded by Christians and for Christians, and that Christianity is essential for American democracy to function and survive in order to please God, if being Christian is only a matter of saying you are a Christian?
END2210030211

Yes.
It's a BELIEF SYSTEM. How do you define what someone believes? You ask them. Because if they say they believe something, then... it's all you have.

Many different religious groups use CONTROL. They demand that you do this, that or the other. But you don't need to belong to a controlling group in order to believe something about some mythical man in the sky.

My father worked for a church, he wasn't religious. He often said about the factions within, those who said others weren't "Proper Christians" because they didn't believe in the "right way".
It's all nonsense. But it's the way it is.

 

[elektra]

Rationalism​

Despite the evangelical, emotional challenge to reason underlying the “Great Awakening,” by the end of the colonial period, Protestant rationalism remained the dominant religious force among the leaders of most of the colonies: “The similarity of belief among the educated gentry in all colonies is notable. . . . [There] seem to be evidence that some form of rationalism—Unitarian, deist, or otherwise—was often present in the religion of gentlemen leaders by the late colonial period.”

Religion in Colonial America: Trends, Regulations, and Beliefs

Learn about the religious landscape of colonial America to better understand religious freedom today.

www.facinghistory.org

Whether Unitarian, deist, or even Anglican/Congregational, rationalism focused on the ethical aspects of religion. Rationalism also discarded many “superstitious” aspects of the Christian liturgy (although many continued to believe in the human soul and in the afterlife). The political edge of this argument was that no human institution—religious or civil—could claim divine authority. In addition, in their search for God’s truths, rationalists such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin valued the study of nature (known as “natural religion”) over the Scriptures (or “revealed religion”).

Yes, we know, our foubding was on christianty by christians.

If you wish to know mire I suggest you read books from the 18th and 19th century.

Google links will mostly link to propaganda. Google links also makes it look like you really have no knowledge, that you are confirming you ideology through google, which is a mistake.

 

[elektra]

based on his life and writings one should say Jefferson was the best rational theist to the slaves because he was not a Christian.

Or, based on being a theist, which all christians are, Jefferson was a good christian who founded a country that ended slavery

 

[elektra]

Cut and paste a small excerpt so I know what I need to disagree with.

Cut/paste? Sorry friend but I find those who only google know to little to discern the propaganda from the facts. I dont rely on google for my knowledge.

I will share some stuff from google but books are best.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Or, based on being a theist, which all christians are, Jefferson was a good christian who founded a country that ended slavery

NFBW: Jefferson was a rational theist - not a revealed religion theist. No Christians are rational theists because rational theists are rational theists because rationally they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and they do not believe the entire irrationality of the Holy Trinity, They abhor the concept of original sin and salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ which means of course, a rational theist like Jefferson did not believe or propagate such pagan voodoo bullshit as that Jesus died and then rose miraculously from the dead. Rational theists do not and would never consider the Holy Bible to be the sole and only word of God.

Rationsl theists (like most of whom we call founding fathers) were or leaned heavily toward Enlightenment Philosophy, Deism and Unitarianism. Rational Theists, Deists and Unitarians founded America favoring no religion including any and all revealed religions such as Christianity.

Thus we have revealed religion preachers and historical church records confirming the following about a major problem that the revealed theism/religion of Jesus Christ contended with in the new UNITED States of AMERICA designed around freedom of conscience and rational theism, Deism and Unitarianism.

* The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.” Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

* On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”

* Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”

* The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.” Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

* Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts

NFBW: The original thread CANE RIDGE was posted:

Comment on 23905496 January 23 2020

See Post #431

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions.

#431 NFBW wrote: During the actual founding of America, middle and lower class Americans from 1776 to 1801 were more interested in grabbing land than being good faithful Christians.

Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

• On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”
• Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”
• The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.” Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).
• Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts.”

NFBW: And from the most populated new state and former colony of New York (my favorite)

Article XXXVIII. And whereas we are required, by the benevolent principles of the rational liberty, not only to expel civil tyranny, but also to guard against that spiritual oppression and intolerance wherewith the bigotry and ambition of weak and wicked priests and princes have scourged mankind, this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this state, ordain, determine, and desire, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall be forever hereafter be allowed, within this state, to all mankind: PROVIDED That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state. New York Constitution 1777

END2210030725

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Cut/paste? Sorry friend but I find those who only google know to little to discern the propaganda from the facts.

I asked you to cut and paste from this forum, thread and posts exactly what I wrote that you consider to be absurd. IT IS THE ONLY way I can respond directly to you on this matter and present you with the facts.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Yes, we know, our foubding was on christianty by christians.

NFBW: Why read books of the 17th Century when America was founded at the end of the 18th Century when white European Protestant Christianity as a revealed religion was in decline in the New Nation and in need of revival? Catholicism, the universally more dominant religion was not present in any meaningful way in the new nation until later in the 19th Century. END2210030801

 

[elektra]

NFBW: Why read books of the 17th Century when America was founded at the end of the 18th Century when ...

Why imply or misquote me, I never stated, read books from the 17 century. I specifically stated 18th and 19 century.

If you get the simple wrong, you certainly, very likely get the more complicated wrong.

You have not established in any wat shape or form that christianity was on a decline.

The fact remains, you have not established Jefferson was not a Christian, or that our country was founded on anything less.