was it ok to destroy Dresden?

[Zebra]

Oh, one can simply look at a map.

Now this concentrates on military facilities and rail lines. And it is clear where those were. Several times in this thread I have mentioned the "Three train stations", but that was only talking about freight. There was also a 4th station, but that was dedicated to moving personnel and not material.

And look where all of those train stations were, built right against the heart of the city.

Dresden-Neustadt was the main station for freight coming in and out of the rest of Germany (number 3 on the map)

Dresden-Frauenkirche was the main station for freight coming in and out of the occupied areas to the east (number 7 on the map and what the photo I already posted is of).

There was also a large freight station and marshalling yard for segregating inbound and outbound freight, and for movement of freight inside the city itself (number 4 on the map).

There was also a large facility for building and repairing locomotives (number 5 on the map).

Then another main station as well, primarily for moving people (number 6 on the map).

The biggest importance was that it was the major rail hub in the nation. Not unlike the importance of Chicago and Atlanta when it comes to US aviation.

And being deep in the eastern part of Germany, it was safe from US and UK bombing for most of the war. And as the Soviets never had any kind of significant number of bombers was not really attacked by them either. But taking out those rail depots and facilities was of critical importance to cutting off supplies and equipment from going to the Eastern Front.

As early as the US Civil War, crippling the rail network of the enemy became a key factor in winning the war. Especially for a nation like Germany, which was based on a logistical model that is literally based on US Civil War era technology. Most of their supplies was moved from location to location via rail, then distributed at the destination on horse drawn carts.

Take out the rail system, and nothing moved.

the railways were not the main aim.
the aim was to kill as many civilians as possible

 

[whitehall]

Truman authorized a nuclear strike on non military Japanese cities when Japan was all but defeated and had no defense against daylight raids with conventional bombers. It's clear that the wholesale killing of civilians was a (legitimate?) tactic in WW2 to convince the maniacs to surrender. Why argue about it?

 

[AZrailwhale]

There’s a difference between having some utility in fighting a war and such action being “necessary.”

It isn’t disputed that it had a measure of some utility.

But it is disputed that it was necessary at that point in the war to crush Nazi Germany.

Every bullets shell or bomb that passed through those rail yards had the potential to kill a Soviet soldier. Every pound of food kept a German soldier in the fight killing Soviet soldiers. Every 88mm gun was killing WAllied aviators. The war wasn’t over until the fighting stopped.

 

[westwall]

OK, you claim there were no factories in the city. Then you admit the image shows factories in the city.

Interesting way of trying to admit both are true. I guess this is Schrödinger's City then.

No, I said the factories were not in the city center. The nearest factory to the city center was approximately a mile and a half away. The marshalling yard was quite large, the factory was opposite that.

You are trying to pick a fight for no reason other than your immense ego.

Both statements I have made are true. The picture is factual, and there was no military production in the city center which bore the brunt of the bombing.

Total area of the city was around 20 square miles. The city center is less than one square mile, but had the largest concentration of population, and historical artifacts and architecture.

The fact that they obliterated that was purely for revenge. You know it, and I know it. Harris is on record stating his desire for revenge.

 

[BackAgain]

Every bullets shell or bomb that passed through those rail yards had the potential to kill a Soviet soldier. Every pound of food kept a German soldier in the fight killing Soviet soldiers. Every 88mm gun was killing WAllied aviators. The war wasn’t over until the fighting stopped.

Yes. We all know that.

Nonetheless, destroying the railyard doesn’t mean that the fire bombing of the city was particularly useful or justifiable — again, especially by our more modern day standards.

In fact, even during the war, it was criticized by some as were the firebombing raids of Places like Tokyo.

 

[Mushroom]

We all knew back by the time of the destruction of Dresden that the war was drawing to an end.

Sure, it just took another 300,000 or so deaths on the battlefield until it was over.

We also knew that by the time of the Battle of Okinawa, the war against Japan was also drawing to a close. Yet another 150,000 or so died in that one battle.

What, do you really think that the war would have ended otherwise?

God, you apologists and revisers of history really make me sick. Can you make a claim that is at all believable that if the Allied forces had halted in place right where they were in February 1945 the war would have ended?

If not, than what you said is absolute coprolite.

 

[Mushroom]

The nearest factory to the city center was approximately a mile and a half away.

And this was freaking WWII!

That was not the modern era where we can have a bomb land on the ass of a grasshopper from 100 miles away. In WWII bombing terms, even five miles away was well within the area of impact. Especially when talking about raids of over 500 bombers.

 

[BackAgain]

Sure, it just took another 300,000 or so deaths on the battlefield until it was over.

We also knew that by the time of the Battle of Okinawa, the war against Japan was also drawing to a close. Yet another 150,000 or so died in that one battle.

What, do you really think that the war would have ended otherwise?

God, you apologists and revisers of history really make me sick. Can you make a claim that is at all believable that if the Allied forces had halted in place right where they were in February 1945 the war would have ended?

If not, than what you said is absolute coprolite.

Nonsense.

Bomb the rails and trains don’t roll

But why firebomb a civilian population in a beautiful historical city?

You’re the one who is full of shit.

I have already publicly endorsed what we did with the atomic bombs in Japan since there was clear evidence that the Japanese were planning on fighting to the last man and woman. The loss of many hundreds of thousands of additional American troops and millions of Japanese civilians were likely saved.

That doesn’t necessarily stand true with the Dresden bombing.

 

[Mushroom]

I have already publicly endorsed what we did with the atomic bombs in Japan since there was clear evidence that the Japanese were planning on fighting to the last man and woman. The loss of many hundreds of thousands of additional American troops and millions of Japanese civilians were likely saved.

That doesn’t necessarily stand true with the Dresden bombing.

What, as if Germany would have surrendered before the city of Berlin was overrun and their Supreme Leader assumed room temperature?

Once again, unless you can make a believable claim that Germany would have surrendered in February 1945 without the bombing, then nothing else you say matters at all. And we know that is not true, so nothing you have been claiming is true.

 

[BackAgain]

What, as if Germany would have surrendered before the city of Berlin was overrun and their Supreme Leader assumed room temperature?

Once again, unless you can make a believable claim that Germany would have surrendered in February 1945 without the bombing, then nothing else you say matters at all. And we know that is not true, so nothing you have been claiming is true.

It was all mere prognostication then. And it’s hardly clear hindsight now.

I’m afraid I can’t provide you with the validation of your own view which is what you seem to crave. And I’m not entirely convinced one way or the other.

But what I haven’t read in your posts is any solid information supporting yiur apparent claim that destroying that railway junction wouldn’t have sufficed.

 

[westwall]

And this was freaking WWII!

That was not the modern era where we can have a bomb land on the ass of a grasshopper from 100 miles away. In WWII bombing terms, even five miles away was well within the area of impact. Especially when talking about raids of over 500 bombers.

Yeah? So? Witzig had gliders land within 10m of their target during the Eben Emael attack, in 1940.

The British Mosquitoes were fully capable of making precision attacks on a target like that. Some were even modified to carry the "Cookie" bomb, which is about the same as the entire load of a B-17 depending on the mission.

2nd TAF IIRC, famously attacked the Gestapo HQ in Aarhus. Leveling it. The collateral damage was terrible thanks to a bomber crashing into a school. That led a few other Mosquitoes to attack the school in error.

But even with that, they didn't obliterate the entire college.

My point with that little essay is, had the Allies desired, they could have done the attack they wanted, without obliterating the city.

They simply didn't care.

 

[Mushroom]

I’m afraid I can’t provide you with the validation of your own view which is what you seem to crave.

That is not my view at all. But you claim the bombing was not needed, as obviously the war was almost over. Like so many that try to twist reality to fit their beliefs, you keep twisting and turning, but no matter how hard you are trying it simply fails.

 

[Mushroom]

Witzig had gliders land within 10m of their target during the Eben Emael attack, in 1940.

Those had human pilots.

Did any of the bombs dropped by the UK have humans on board guiding them to their targets?

 

[westwall]

Those had human pilots.

Did any of the bombs dropped by the UK have humans on board guiding them to their targets?

Nope. But the bombs dropped by the Mosquitoes against the Gestapo HQ did just fine. Breached the exact wall they needed, killed the sentries, and broke open enough of the cells that a general escape was made possible.

All while under extensive AA fire.

And they were just a regular ground attack group. Not a specialized squadron, like 617, or the American 1st Air Commando.

 

[braalian]

The German people were complicit for the crimes committed by their government.

 

[Zebra]

Yeah? So? Witzig had gliders land within 10m of their target during the Eben Emael attack, in 1940.

The British Mosquitoes were fully capable of making precision attacks on a target like that. Some were even modified to carry the "Cookie" bomb, which is about the same as the entire load of a B-17 depending on the mission.

2nd TAF IIRC, famously attacked the Gestapo HQ in Aarhus. Leveling it. The collateral damage was terrible thanks to a bomber crashing into a school. That led a few other Mosquitoes to attack the school in error.

But even with that, they didn't obliterate the entire college.

My point with that little essay is, had the Allies desired, they could have done the attack they wanted, without obliterating the city.

They simply didn't care.

so it was

 

[westwall]

The German people were complicit for the crimes committed by their government.

Less than 10% of the population were members of the nazi party. So no, they weren't.

 

[braalian]

Less than 10% of the population were members of the nazi party. So no, they weren't.

They should have collectively forced their government to cease the crimes being committed

 

[westwall]

They should have collectively forced their government to cease the crimes being committed

How? The authorities were the only ones with guns.

Go to Germany sometime, visit a church graveyard, and look at all the regular people killed by the Gestapo. The German people were prisoners in their own country.

 

[braalian]

How? The authorities were the only ones with guns.

Go to Germany sometime, visit a church graveyard, and look at all the regular people killed by the Gestapo. The German people were prisoners in their own country.

There’s a reason the American army forced the local German populations to physically remove each dead body from the camps.

They knew what was happening near their towns