was it ok to destroy Dresden?

[westwall]

The rail marshalling yard was right on the edge of the city center.

And how accurate do you think carpet bombing was in WWII? They were often lucky if the bombs struck a half mile of their target.

The British were able to merely destroy cities.

The Norden bombsight while under perfect conditions could drop within 100 feet of its target, by the time Dresden rolled around they could keep 50% within 1000 feet of the target.

Thus, if you want to destroy the railyard you send in the 379th BG (H) and they will eliminate it with minimal damage to the city center if dropped on the proper heading.

But Harris didn't give a shit, so burned the city to the ground. It wasn't necessary. They should have Mighty Eighth with the job and the mission would have been accomplished without incinerating the entire thing.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

i dont think so

what do you think?

I think war is hell On earth

 

[AZrailwhale]

A BRITISH study during 1941 came to the conclusion that only one out of five RAF bombers hit within FIVE MILES of the target. Bomber Command was lucky to hit a city, let alone a specific target. The USAAF was slightly better, but at least it tried to hit point targets,

 

[AZrailwhale]

The British were able to merely destroy cities.

The Norden bombsight while under perfect conditions could drop within 100 feet of its target, by the time Dresden rolled around they could keep 50% within 1000 feet of the target.

Thus, if you want to destroy the railyard you send in the 379th BG (H) and they will eliminate it with minimal damage to the city center if dropped on the proper heading.

But Harris didn't give a shit, so burned the city to the ground. It wasn't necessary. They should have Mighty Eighth with the job and the mission would have been accomplished without incinerating the entire thing.

The 8th Air Force was bombing Dresden by day with HE while Bomber Command was dropping incendiaries at night.

 

[BackAgain]

I voted “other.” I truly wish that even back then (when humanity had unthinkingly assumed that such targets were fully legit and that such methods were simply justified because “war”) we had already come to challenge such thinking.

But, the Nazis bombed London to terrorize the civilian population. America and the Brits destroyed “targets” like Dresden more for that same (terror) reason then for its limited military “value.” And what we did to Dresden and a few other German cities, hardly compares to what we did to Japan.

Japan, to a large degree, had houses made of wood, bamboo and fuckin’ paper and we bombed those areas again and again starting enormous firestorms. Massive numbers of civilian deaths ensued.

Hell, we even used atomic bombs on locations which had only slight “military” value, in order to make a point or two while we were (rightfully) demanding an unconditional surrender.

All that said, wars are inherently tragic and violent and brutal and deadly. But, if we are caught up in one, let’s be really honest: We sure as **** want to win.

 

[Zebra]

The British were able to merely destroy cities.

The Norden bombsight while under perfect conditions could drop within 100 feet of its target, by the time Dresden rolled around they could keep 50% within 1000 feet of the target.

Thus, if you want to destroy the railyard you send in the 379th BG (H) and they will eliminate it with minimal damage to the city center if dropped on the proper heading.

But Harris didn't give a shit, so burned the city to the ground. It wasn't necessary. They should have Mighty Eighth with the job and the mission would have been accomplished without incinerating the entire thing.

 

[westwall]

The 8th Air Force was bombing Dresden by day with HE while Bomber Command was dropping incendiaries at night.

Yeah, I know.

 

[westwall]

I voted “other.” I truly wish that even back then (when humanity had unthinkingly assumed that such targets were fully legit and that such methods were simply justified because “war”) we had already come to challenge such thinking.

But, the Nazis bombed London to terrorize the civilian population. America and the Brits destroyed “targets” like Dresden more for that same (terror) reason then for its limited military “value.” And what we did to Dresden and a few other German cities, hardly compares to what we did to Japan.

Japan, to a large degree, had houses made of wood, bamboo and fuckin’ paper and we bombed those areas again and again starting enormous firestorms. Massive numbers of civilian deaths ensued.

Hell, we even used atomic bombs on locations which had only slight “military” value, in order to make a point or two while we were (rightfully) demanding an unconditional surrender.

All that said, wars are inherently tragic and violent and brutal and deadly. But, if we are caught up in one, let’s be really honest: We sure as **** want to win.

Yup, coming 2nd place is sub optimal. That's for sure.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Basic facts, it was a major transportation and industrial hub.

The NSDAP apologists try to pretend that none of that was there.

Kind of like how the Japan apologists try to pretend that Hiroshima was not a major logistical base and the command for the defense of Southern Japan. And that Nagasaki was not a major naval base for shipbuilding. Not only the home of and where most of the Japanese subs were built, but the IJN Amagi, one of the last carriers Japan completed during the war.

But please, I do applaud you for saying you do not know the facts. I have long believed that people should know facts, so they do not fall prey to people that want to drive people based on lies and emotions.

Slanderhouse Five

Kurt Vonnegut, poet laureate of the Campus Commie Scum, disagrees.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The British were able to merely destroy cities.

The Norden bombsight while under perfect conditions could drop within 100 feet of its target, by the time Dresden rolled around they could keep 50% within 1000 feet of the target.

Thus, if you want to destroy the railyard you send in the 379th BG (H) and they will eliminate it with minimal damage to the city center if dropped on the proper heading.

But Harris didn't give a shit, so burned the city to the ground. It wasn't necessary. They should have Mighty Eighth with the job and the mission would have been accomplished without incinerating the entire thing.

Eliminate Conscientious-Objector Draftdodging

Why all this wimpy weeping over the Nazi death-squads' parents, wives, and children? They deserved to come home to what they had left on the battlefields and concentration camps.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I think war is hell On earth

Surrender is hell

 

[Mushroom]

Like I said, miles away from the city center.

Like I said, insignificant during WWII.

Here we go, once again.

That is one of three major marshalling hubs in Dresden. That was the major rail link for all material going to the Eastern Front. And notice you can see the "city center" just in the distance, about three miles away. And also in the background can be seen the stacks from factories. The ones to the right-center were manufacturing 8.8cm Flak guns, one of the most feared weapons of the Germans in WWII because it was awesome at both anti-aircraft and also at anti-tank and as artillery.

And all the wat to the right can be seen even more factory stacks. They were not "miles away", they were literally built right against the "city center" itself.

Or are you saying that this well known photograph of the Dresden-Friedrichstadt Station is a fraud?

Because either you are lying, or the image above is lying.

 

[westwall]

Like I said, insignificant during WWII.

Here we go, once again.

That is one of three major marshalling hubs in Dresden. That was the major rail link for all material going to the Eastern Front. And notice you can see the "city center" just in the distance, about three miles away. And also in the background can be seen the stacks from factories. The ones to the right-center were manufacturing 8.8cm Flak guns, one of the most feared weapons of the Germans in WWII because it was awesome at both anti-aircraft and also at anti-tank and as artillery.

And all the wat to the right can be seen even more factory stacks. They were not "miles away", they were literally built right against the "city center" itself.

Or are you saying that this well known photograph of the Dresden-Friedrichstadt Station is a fraud?

Because either you are lying, or the image above is lying.

Nope I am not lying, nor am I claiming the picture is lying.

I am merely saying that at that point in the war there was no need to obliterate the city.

 

[BackAgain]

Nope I am not lying, nor an I claiming the picture is lying.

I am merely saying that at that point in the war there was no need to obliterate the city.

I don’t have the intel available to decide (so long after the fact) why there may have been any reason to obliterate Dresden. I’d love to believe it was somehow crucial. But what I have read seems to indicate it wasn’t.

Indeed, even if it had been unnecessary, it isn’t clear that our side realized how unnecessary it was.

 

[Mushroom]

Nope I am not lying, nor an I claiming the picture is lying.

OK, you claim there were no factories in the city. Then you admit the image shows factories in the city.

Interesting way of trying to admit both are true. I guess this is Schrödinger's City then.

 

[Zebra]

Nope I am not lying, nor an I claiming the picture is lying.

I am merely saying that at that point in the war there was no need to obliterate the city.

yes, there was no need.

 

[Mushroom]

Indeed, even if it had been unnecessary, it isn’t clear that our side realized how unnecessary it was.

Oh, one can simply look at a map.

Now this concentrates on military facilities and rail lines. And it is clear where those were. Several times in this thread I have mentioned the "Three train stations", but that was only talking about freight. There was also a 4th station, but that was dedicated to moving personnel and not material.

And look where all of those train stations were, built right against the heart of the city.

Dresden-Neustadt was the main station for freight coming in and out of the rest of Germany (number 3 on the map)

Dresden-Frauenkirche was the main station for freight coming in and out of the occupied areas to the east (number 7 on the map and what the photo I already posted is of).

There was also a large freight station and marshalling yard for segregating inbound and outbound freight, and for movement of freight inside the city itself (number 4 on the map).

There was also a large facility for building and repairing locomotives (number 5 on the map).

Then another main station as well, primarily for moving people (number 6 on the map).

The biggest importance was that it was the major rail hub in the nation. Not unlike the importance of Chicago and Atlanta when it comes to US aviation.

And being deep in the eastern part of Germany, it was safe from US and UK bombing for most of the war. And as the Soviets never had any kind of significant number of bombers was not really attacked by them either. But taking out those rail depots and facilities was of critical importance to cutting off supplies and equipment from going to the Eastern Front.

As early as the US Civil War, crippling the rail network of the enemy became a key factor in winning the war. Especially for a nation like Germany, which was based on a logistical model that is literally based on US Civil War era technology. Most of their supplies was moved from location to location via rail, then distributed at the destination on horse drawn carts.

Take out the rail system, and nothing moved.

 

[BackAgain]

Oh, one can simply look at a map.

Now this concentrates on military facilities and rail lines. And it is clear where those were. Several times in this thread I have mentioned the "Three train stations", but that was only talking about freight. There was also a 4th station, but that was dedicated to moving personnel and not material.

And look where all of those train stations were, built right against the heart of the city.

Dresden-Neustadt was the main station for freight coming in and out of the rest of Germany (number 3 on the map)

Dresden-Frauenkirche was the main station for freight coming in and out of the occupied areas to the east (number 7 on the map and what the photo I already posted is of).

There was also a large freight station and marshalling yard for segregating inbound and outbound freight, and for movement of freight inside the city itself (number 4 on the map).

There was also a large facility for building and repairing locomotives (number 5 on the map).

Then another main station as well, primarily for moving people (number 6 on the map).

The biggest importance was that it was the major rail hub in the nation. Not unlike the importance of Chicago and Atlanta when it comes to US aviation.

And being deep in the eastern part of Germany, it was safe from US and UK bombing for most of the war. And as the Soviets never had any kind of significant number of bombers was not really attacked by them either. But taking out those rail depots and facilities was of critical importance to cutting off supplies and equipment from going to the Eastern Front.

As early as the US Civil War, crippling the rail network of the enemy became a key factor in winning the war. Especially for a nation like Germany, which was based on a logistical model that is literally based on US Civil War era technology. Most of their supplies was moved from location to location via rail, then distributed at the destination on horse drawn carts.

Take out the rail system, and nothing moved.

There’s a difference between having some utility in fighting a war and such action being “necessary.”

It isn’t disputed that it had a measure of some utility.

But it is disputed that it was necessary at that point in the war to crush Nazi Germany.

 

[Mushroom]

But it is disputed that it was necessary at that point in the war to crush Nazi Germany.

Stopping the supplies from reaching the Eastern Front was a major reason why the war ended as quickly as it did.

 

[BackAgain]

Stopping the supplies from reaching the Eastern Front was a major reason why the war ended as quickly as it did.

From February to May? No. We all knew back by the time of the destruction of Dresden that the war was drawing to an end.

How much, if any, the Dresden fire bombings had to do with speeding up that ending is unknown; and it is definitely not a claim which you have supported.