CDZ USMB POLL: Woman shot, killed by two-year-old son - Who is responsible for this woman's death?

[Kat]

Of course, but the point was she did not have full awareness of her surroundings.

She wasn't aware that she had a loaded gun with a baby?

Not fully obviously.

That stupidity cost her, her life.

Or it could have been the life of someone else.

Right, and she would still be responsible. I do not know why anyone would think she's not responsible for her gun, her purse, and her toddler.

I don't think anyone thinks that. I think we all agree it was a tragic accident. Was she very smart for having a loaded gun like that? No of course not. She was irresponsible, and it cost her her life. Thank goodness that it didn't do more damage...ie kill someone else.

 

[Yarddog]

(Reuters) - A woman was accidentally shot and killed at a Walmart store in northern Idaho on Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded handgun from her purse that then went off, a county sheriff said.

The 29-year-old woman was shopping at a Walmart in Hayden, Idaho, with the toddler seated in her shopping cart when the incident occurred, Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger said in a written statement.

Who (if anyone) is responsible for this poor woman's death?

The woman herself, for not taking extra precaution, or no one at all. sometimes things just happen , there doesnt always have to be someone to blame for bad things that happen in this world but our minds are affected be the litigious society we live in today to the point that it easily becomes our first response

 

[320 Years of History]

(Reuters) - A woman was accidentally shot and killed at a Walmart store in northern Idaho on Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded handgun from her purse that then went off, a county sheriff said.

The 29-year-old woman was shopping at a Walmart in Hayden, Idaho, with the toddler seated in her shopping cart when the incident occurred, Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger said in a written statement.

Who (if anyone) is responsible for this poor woman's death?

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

If the latter, the child's mother should be held culpable, but she's dead, so she has already paid the ultimate price for her failure to keep better control of her child and her gun. Accordingly, the event must be declared an accident.

 

[Chuz Life]

How can you blame anyone for an unforseen tragic death?

I understand that blame often follows the recognition of who or what was responsible for the outcome. However, in a case like this - I wasn't looking for someone to blame.

 

[Chuz Life]

Kinda think something is being made out of nothing. Overall it was an accident. We all know the definition of that.

So you are saying the woman who was killed by a 2 year old, carrying a loaded pistol with the safety off and the hammer down, is a perfectly responsible gun owner.

Fascinating.

It appears you are looking to fight. No thanks.

SO You think she did it on purpose so her child would kill her. Alrighty.

Do you think she was responsible?

Have you ever taken a gun course?

It's a two edged sword.

Any gun (self defense) course would advise the students to keep their guns where they can get to them in a moments notice AND to try to keep them where children can not get to them at the same time.

For that reason, my poll question is not as easy to answer as I thought it would have been for myself. (except to vote no-one)

 

[Chuz Life]

Kinda think something is being made out of nothing. Overall it was an accident. We all know the definition of that.

So you are saying the woman who was killed by a 2 year old, carrying a loaded pistol with the safety off and the hammer down, is a perfectly responsible gun owner.

Fascinating.

It appears you are looking to fight. No thanks.

SO You think she did it on purpose so her child would kill her. Alrighty.

Do you think she was responsible?

Have you ever taken a gun course?

I think it was an accident. I can't find where it said the safety was off and hammer down.
No, I have not taken a gun course, but am giving my opinion off of what I am reading. And common sense.
Even I would know not to have the safety off and hammer down. Is that how it was?

How else could a 2 year old pull the trigger?

A gun is not a toy. You should have control of it at all times when you're carrying it.

I told this story in another thread. . . when I was two - I found my way into my great grandfather's bedroom on a family visit. . . less than ten minutes after we arrived (as I am told) and I found and fired a bullet from his .22 cal revolver right through their wardrobe.

It's a double action revolver

I have the same (model) revolver today and just looking at it, I can't imagine myself at 2 years old being able to pull the trigger and work that double action to fire off a shot. . . but according to my family, I did.

 

[Chuz Life]

(Reuters) - A woman was accidentally shot and killed at a Walmart store in northern Idaho on Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded handgun from her purse that then went off, a county sheriff said.

The 29-year-old woman was shopping at a Walmart in Hayden, Idaho, with the toddler seated in her shopping cart when the incident occurred, Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger said in a written statement.

Who (if anyone) is responsible for this poor woman's death?

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

I think we should consider both.

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

If the latter, the child's mother should be held culpable, but she's dead, so she has already paid the ultimate price for her failure to keep better control of her child and her gun.

When I made the poll, I was being more objective and I was not necessarily looking for culpability or for someone to blame. I guess I should have made that more clear.

Accordingly, the event must be declared an accident.

I agree with that.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The 2 year old will be told when older that he/she killed his/her own mother and have to live with it for the rest of their life. Who's responsible for that.

 

[Anathema]

The gun owner is ultimately responsible for the disposition of their firearm at all times. This is part of the reason I don't believe in off-body carry. It's much less secure than carrying on your person.

 

[hjmick]

This happened in December 2014, any particular reason we're discussing it almost sixteen months after the fact?

Her "crime" was to not hold on to her purse, right? She probably has a habit of placing it in the cart. You can't control that all the time.

This perhaps the most ignorant comment in this thread.

If you put a gun in your purse, you GOD damn well better control it all the time.


The mother is to blame. If anyone disagrees, you're just plain wrong.

 

[Chuz Life]

This happened in December 2014, any particular reason we're discussing it almost sixteen months after the fact?

To be honest, I hadn't noticed the date when I ran across the article. The question of responsibility popped into my head - so I started the thread.

I'm glad I did too. . . some of the comments have been interesting.

Her "crime" was to not hold on to her purse, right? She probably has a habit of placing it in the cart. You can't control that all the time.

This perhaps the most ignorant comment in this thread.

If you put a gun in your purse, you GOD damn well better control it all the time.

I'm betting that the mother in this case had no expectation that she would be killed that day. So, I'm also betting that she thought that she DID have control over her purse and over the situation . . right up to the moment that it was too late to do it any better.

The mother is to blame. If anyone disagrees, you're just plain wrong.

I don't agree that her being responsible or even the most responsible is justification enough for us to assign "blame" in this case.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We all are responsible for actions.

‘The Court in Roe carefully considered, and rejected, the State's argument "that the fetus is a `person' within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment." 410 U. S., at 156. After analyzing the usage of "person" in the Constitution, the Court concluded that that word "has application only postnatally." Id., at 157. Commenting on the contingent property interests of the unborn that are generally represented by guardians ad litem, the Court noted: "Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense." Id., at 162. Accordingly, an abortion is not "the termination of life entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection." Id., at 159. From this holding, there was no dissent, see id., at 173; indeed, no member of the Court has ever questioned this fundamental proposition. Thus, as a matter of federal constitutional law, a developing organism that is not yet a "person" does not have what is sometimes described as a "right to life."’


Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)

 

[320 Years of History]

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

Yes, in the absolute sense of responsibility, it is that simple. There is nothing else to consider beyond who pulled the trigger.

 

[Chuz Life]

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

Yes, in the absolute sense of responsibility, it is that simple. There is nothing else to consider beyond who pulled the trigger.

Agreed.

However, you are not suggesting that somehow absolves anyone else (the mom) of their responsibilities in this situation.

Are you?

 

[Vandalshandle]

One of the most bizarre cases of suicide that i have ever heard of...

 

[320 Years of History]

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

Yes, in the absolute sense of responsibility, it is that simple. There is nothing else to consider beyond who pulled the trigger.

Agreed.

However, you are not suggesting that somehow absolves anyone else (the mom) of their responsibilities in this situation.

Are you?

No, I'm not. That's why I said ultimately, the scenario/death you identified must be declared an accident.

P.S./Unrelated
TY for asking/confirming what you think about my stance rather than merely asserting that they are my stances or recasting them into something they are not. Though I disagree with your final stance on the abortion issue, I do respect you. You have shown yourself to be among the few here who can have a mature discussion. I appreciate that.

 

[depotoo]

When you have children you have to be responsible. You do not leave a loaded gun within reach of children, which, unfortunately, for the child, and herself, she did.

How can you blame anyone for an unforseen tragic death?

 

[depotoo]

She should not have left her purse with a loaded gun in it in the cart with her 2 yr old, and the child being 2, probably with the purse right next to that poor child in the front of the cart.

She should have not had the kid in the cart. That would have made more sense.

 

[Chuz Life]

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

Yes, in the absolute sense of responsibility, it is that simple. There is nothing else to consider beyond who pulled the trigger.

Agreed.

However, you are not suggesting that somehow absolves anyone else (the mom) of their responsibilities in this situation.

Are you?

No, I'm not. That's why I said ultimately, the scenario/death you identified must be declared an accident.

I'm not trying to split hairs here to be argumentative but it seems to me that this was something other than an "accident."

As you noted, the child did pull the trigger - whether he could have consciously knew what he was doing or not. . .

Under law, an accident is "a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought."

It seems like there should be a better word for things like this than to call it an accident.

P.S./Unrelated TY for asking/confirming what you think about my stance rather than merely asserting that they are my stances or recasting them into something they are not. Though I disagree with your final stance on the abortion issue, I do respect you. You have shown yourself to be among the few here who can have a mature discussion. I appreciate that.

Thanks for all of the above.

I have been accused of being able to use anything to make a point on abortion and many times (including this thread) I usually can do that when I want to.

I try to be consistent in my views and I like dealing with the hard questions. I gather from your posts that you tend to do the same

Here's to more of the same!

 

[320 Years of History]

Responsible in the absolute sense, or responsible in the "who should be held culpable" sense, that is, if anyone can and should be?

If the former, the child is responsible; nobody else pulled the trigger.

True.

But is it really that simple? The child didn't go out and buy the gun. And I doubt that he had permission to go into his mom's purse to get it.

Yes, in the absolute sense of responsibility, it is that simple. There is nothing else to consider beyond who pulled the trigger.

Agreed.

However, you are not suggesting that somehow absolves anyone else (the mom) of their responsibilities in this situation.

Are you?

No, I'm not. That's why I said ultimately, the scenario/death you identified must be declared an accident.

I'm not trying to split hairs here to be argumentative but it seems to me that this was something other than an "accident."

As you noted, the child did pull the trigger - whether he could have consciously knew what he was doing or not. . .

Under law, an accident is "a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought."

It seems like there should be a better word for things like this an to call it an accident.

Red:
Well, in the case you provided, "accident" works for me. I'm certainly not going to ascribe to a toddler anything resembling an awareness of the implications of shooting another. For action to be be other than an accident, among other things, the actor must be "in their right mind." A toddler barely has a mind, much less a "right" one. LOL

It wouldn't surprise me to find that two year olds think that shooting some works in real life as it does in cartoons, especially if they watch cartoons like the ones I did at that age...Roadrunner comes to mind. Look at how often Wile E. Coyote got shot or blown up only to live on.

​

I can't say I recall any "conversations" I had with my kids when they were toddlers. LOL I can say that seeing as there's practically no telling what far older folks think, or whether they think at all, to say nothing of think rationally, I'm hard pressed to accept or imagine that toddlers are any more cognizant of reality or adept at thinking. Like being proficient at, say, tennis, thinking takes practice in order to be good at it.

Well, some alternatives include the following:

• Mishap
• Deathblow
• Misfortune
• Debacle

That said, accident seems fine, particularly seeing as I'm of the mind that the child accidentally killed its mother. Had she lived, I wouldn't send her to jail on the basis that she was responsible for her child's getting hold of the gun and firing it. Had the child shot someone (killing them or not), I absolutely would hold the mother responsible, and, yes, I'd have to assign some sort of criminal penalty to her.

I think there's no doubt about the mother's having been at the very least negligently culpable no matter whom her child harmed/killed.