Treason At Pearl Harbor.

[goodluck]

This above is ingenious, but the conclusion is false. The attack was a fault of the high command but not deliberate.

On the side: Your imagination is very, very ripe. Get in touch with Harry Turtle dove and see if you can sell him some script ideas.

I posted some links to some websites on the matter in my thread. Read them and argue with them.

 

[goodluck]

The media writes the history books and the media was actually a part of the FDR administration when FDR threw out the 1st and 5th Amendments. A logical theory is that FDR and his cabinet were afflicted with a racial bias and as such they thought a couple of bullets fired by the Japanese at a Battleship might convince Americans to get into the real war in Europe. The administration tragically misjudged the Japanese but they had the media to cover their tracks.

History is written by the victors. The victors also control the media.

 

[goodluck]

There was no plot to encourage the Japanese to attack.

The US economically attacked Japan after it seized French Indo-China in 1940, and the Japanese thought they had to go to war.

Again, read the websites I gave links to.

 

[goodluck]

This is just pitiful distortion and omission. Most of "the actual government of Japan" wanted to surrender weeks before Hiroshima, and Truman knew it--but instead of acting to end the war without further bloodshed, he did everything possible to sabotage the moderates and to strengthen the hand of the Japanese militarists who were opposed to surrender.

A small faction of the military staged a coup, and their coup failed because most of the military rejected it, including General Anami and Admiral Suzuki.

And Japanese records make it clear that it was the Soviet invasion that caused Japan to surrender, not the nukes.

What you say is true. The Japanese military in China folded like a deck of cards from Russia attacking. Why? Because the Japanese would have rather sided with the commies rather than surrender to the Americans. Truman had to nuke Japan to keep both the Japanese and the Russians in their place.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I posted some links to some websites on the matter in my thread. Read them and argue with them.

Nope, you have some talent; it's your handling of factual assumption is your major issue.

Those websites push unfactual theories.

 

[sparky]

It was all declassified on it's 50th

At least in what our Gub'Mit wanted us to know

and so the debate will always be 'what they knew and when'

~S~

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

I remember you now. You also write about Mormonism, I think. Are you part of the ETB generation? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand your framework for your conclusions.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I just looked up the Hoover - Ladd memos. If they didn't share their information with the military, what good was it.

The Hoover-Ladd memos show that Army intelligence knew the attack was coming several days before it occurred. The memos are about the disclosure to the FBI by the chief of Army counterintelligence that Army intelligence knew at least two days in advance that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. What makes the memos so telling and important is that they were never intended to see the light of day. Hoover and Ladd wanted this bombshell info kept secret--forever.

But that aside, the government already knew when and where the Japanese were going to attack. Because the Japanese naval code had been solved at least a couple weeks before hand. Even then, the Japanese task force didn't maintain radio silence. By triangulation, we could tell exactly where it was and where it was heading. Just by that alone, the U.S. should have figured out what was going to happen.

Yes, I completely agree. This has all been established.

Next, I'm not buying the story that those who knew the Japanese were going to attack didn't count on the amount of damage they would be able to do. After all, what if it was an equal number of our own aircraft dropping bombs or releasing torpedoes at what would basically be sitting ducks. Even the battleships. Any idiot would realize that they would be able to do significant damage. Which is what the Japanese planes did.

We know that FDR and his cronies thought the damage would be minimal and that they were shocked by the amount of damage the Japanese did. They viewed the Japanese through racist lens and regarded them as lousy pilots and as being vastly inferior at aerial warfare. This has been covered in a number of books, many of the same books that document the points you made above about our knowing when and where the attack would occur.

Knox was stunned by the damage when he visited Pearl Harbor a few days after the attack. The damage was far more than he was expecting. This was one of the two reasons he decided to reveal to Admiral Tolley that FDR knew about the attack and purposely allowed it to happen. The other reason was that he realized that someone had blocked the warning he had sent to Pearl Habor on December 6, and he was understandably furious about it.

As for Tom Kimmel, I applaud his efforts to remove the tarnished image of Admiral Kimmel. I of course believe that he was kept in the dark in the whole matter to achieve the "surprise" attack FDR wanted so badly. Though there is something on the whole matter I would like to know. Our two aircraft carriers were out to sea at the time of the attack. I would like to know who ordered them to be out to sea at the time. The timing of it just seems a little too fortuitous.

I knew Tom Kimmel. We discussed the foreknowledge evidence on several occasions. He was good people.

The sending of the carriers away from Hawaii before the attack does seem suspicious, but the cover story that was given is plausible. However, the sending to sea of FDR's favorite ship two days before the attack has no plausible explanation.

On the afternoon of 5 December 1941, less than 48 hours before the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USS Indianapolis, well known to be FDR's favorite ship in the Navy, received an unusual order to leave Hawaii immediately and to proceed to Johnston Island. The ship departed in such a rush that most of the crew members were left behind. There was no apparent reason for this strange, hurried departure. Daniel Brady was a junior enlisted man on the USS Indianapolis at the time (he retired as a senior non-commissioned officer). Brady strongly believed that the ship’s unusual and convenient departure proved that “somebody” knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.

When the Indianapolis's strange and suspicious departure became publicized, the Navy offered two implausible, contradictory stories to explain the incident. One story was that the ship took supplies and personnel to Johnston Island. The other story was that the ship did bombardment training at Johnston Island.

Neither story explains why the ship left so hurriedly and with only part of her crew. There were several cargo ships that could have taken supplies to Johnston Island. Heavy cruisers such as the Indianapolis usually did not perform such missions. The bombardment-training story is even more implausible, since the full crew would have been needed for such training, and such training was always scheduled well in advance to ensure full readiness and full crew participation.

 

[westwall]

It is an absolute fact that the Japanese code was broken well before Pearl Harbor

At best, you can only speculate that the Japanese did not send any messages before the attack to defend the notion that FDR did not know the attack was coming. I highly doubt that was the case though.

Trouble is, history tells us that FDR used the same device that broke the code a few months later at Midway to route the Japanese in a victory.

There is a conundrum of sorts when breaking a code during war time. If you know what you enemy will do at every turn and take actions to fight them off at every turn, then they will conclude that you must have broken their code and change it or find another way to communicate. You are then in far more danger in future conflict.

However, if you allow some devastation by not responding to their every code, they will assume you have not broken their code and continue with it. So, you let the Japanese have some victories so long as you don't let them win the war.

Thus, it certainly becomes an interesting ethical dilemma regarding ignoring certain codes that cost people their lives so that you will ultimately win the war.

The code was only partially broken. There were still gaps.

 

[Soupnazi630]

The big problem with history written by the victors is that everything else, such as the truth, becomes a "conspiracy theory." But the truth of the matter is that FDR knew well in advance when the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor. Making all of the servicemen who died in the attack suckers. If I were a ghost of any of those killed there, I wouldn't have the least interest in any "honor" you may pay me and the others who died. I would be more interested in JUSTICE! Such as by having the real story come out. I will show you a number of websites that show that FDR knew well in advance what the Japanese were planning on doing and when. The first two bring up what cryptographers themselves had to say. This first one is from a letter written by somebody named Lietwiler to Parke. The really telling part of it is it speaking of the Japanese naval code. It says, "By November 16, 1941 (Manila time) Lietweiler informed Parke that he was "reading enough current traffic to keep two translators very busy." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke: The...​

Obviously, it was in FDR's best interest to keep this information as secret as possible. And it is still being kept secret. For any cryptographers back then, it was in their best interest to shut up about the matter. In this next website it speaks of another cryptographer named William Friedman. Though what he had to say came from what his wife had to say on the matter. Probably after his death. I would assume it is what happened when they both heard about the 'surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor. He paced back and forth in their home and muttered to himself repeatedly, "But they knew, they knew, they knew." Here is the website that speaks of it and other matters.


Eighty Years of Lies: President Franklin Roosevelt Told Public Pearl Harbor Was A Surprise Attack—However There Is Considerable Evidence Demonstrating Government Foreknowledge - CovertAction Magazine

Eighty Years of Lies: President... - CovertAction Magazine​

This next website posts a quote that was stated by an army board of inquiry in 1944. It says, "...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies​

Here is another website for you on the matter.

https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/pearl-harbor-81st-anniversary

81 Years After Pearl Harbor, We... - The Free Thought Project​

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett​

There is no evidence whatsoever of prior specific knowledge about Pearly Harbor.

Your first link makes a SUGGESTION and clearly uses that term. Which means they are only making a supposition. That is not evidence

The rest of your links are tired conspiracy theory sites which have no evidence. On december seventh it was known that the Japanese were likely to attack somewhere but there was never any specific knowledge of where and when

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Lots of speculation, Mike.

 

[Soupnazi630]

It is an absolute fact that the Japanese code was broken well before Pearl Harbor

At best, you can only speculate that the Japanese did not send any messages before the attack to defend the notion that FDR did not know the attack was coming. I highly doubt that was the case though.

Trouble is, history tells us that FDR used the same device that broke the code a few months later at Midway to route the Japanese in a victory.

There is a conundrum of sorts when breaking a code during war time. If you know what you enemy will do at every turn and take actions to fight them off at every turn, then they will conclude that you must have broken their code and change it or find another way to communicate. You are then in far more danger in future conflict.

However, if you allow some devastation by not responding to their every code, they will assume you have not broken their code and continue with it. So, you let the Japanese have some victories so long as you don't let them win the war.

Thus, it certainly becomes an interesting ethical dilemma regarding ignoring certain codes that cost people their lives so that you will ultimately win the war.

It is not an absolute fact

What people do not seem to realize is that the Japanese had hundreds of doces and methods of encoding information. As did many other coungtries to include the US. They had seperate codes for the army, the navy, their foreign ministry even for the emperor.

tthey broke SOME of ours and we broke SOME of theirs We never broke them all or even most of them. Before Pearl Harbor the main effort had been in breaking some of their diplomagtic codes as opposed to military and we did have some success but not total.

Throughour the war the success we had in breaking some of their codes allowed us to SOMETIMES get a snap shot of what their intentions were but even that was arrived at through a huge effort.

 

[mikegriffith1]

The Japanese military in China folded like a deck of cards from Russia attacking. Why?

Actually, many Japanese units in Manchuria put up fierce resistance to the Russians, but the Russians had vastly more artillery and armor.

Because the Japanese would have rather sided with the commies rather than surrender to the Americans.

Dead wrong. The Japanese were fiercely against surrendering to the Soviets and absolutely preferred surrendering to the Americans than to the Soviets. If you can find a single scholar who disputes this well-known and heavily documented fact, I'd like to know his/her name.

Truman had to nuke Japan to keep both the Japanese and the Russians in their place.

That's absurd. By April 1945, the Japanese posed no offensive threat to us. The Japanese were virtually defenseless against air and naval attack by then. The population was on nearly starvation rations. We were bombing Japanese cities at will and were not even bothering to send fighter escorts with the bomber formations because we knew that Japanese air defenses were essentially non-existent.

Gen. MacArthur and many other senior American officers noted after the war that if Truman had simply assured the Japanese that the emperor would not be deposed in a surrender, the war could have been ended without dropping any nukes. I might add that if Truman had given this assurance in the Potsdam Declaration, as Admiral Leahy and others urged him to do, there would have been no need to let the Soviets rape Manchuria and grab northern Korea.

 

[Mac-7]

It is not an absolute fact

What people do not seem to realize is that the Japanese had hundreds of doces and methods of encoding information. As did many other coungtries to include the US. They had seperate codes for the army, the navy, their foreign ministry even for the emperor.

tthey broke SOME of ours and we broke SOME of theirs We never broke them all or even most of them. Before Pearl Harbor the main effort had been in breaking some of their diplomagtic codes as opposed to military and we did have some success but not total.

Throughour the war the success we had in breaking some of their codes allowed us to SOMETIMES get a snap shot of what their intentions were but even that was arrived at through a huge effort.

Some people find it difficult to accept the simple answer and cling to conspiracies

We dont know for sure, but the best guess is that the Japanese were a lot better than our War Dept gave them credit for

And therefore did not take proper precautions

 

[goodluck]

Nope, you have some talent; it's your handling of factual assumption is your major issue.

Those websites push unfactual theories.

I am doubting that you even read my thread. You want things to be the way you want them to be and that is the end of the story. Sorry, but reality doesn't work like that.

 

[0311]

The big problem with history written by the victors is that everything else, such as the truth, becomes a "conspiracy theory." But the truth of the matter is that FDR knew well in advance when the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor. Making all of the servicemen who died in the attack suckers. If I were a ghost of any of those killed there, I wouldn't have the least interest in any "honor" you may pay me and the others who died. I would be more interested in JUSTICE! Such as by having the real story come out. I will show you a number of websites that show that FDR knew well in advance what the Japanese were planning on doing and when. The first two bring up what cryptographers themselves had to say. This first one is from a letter written by somebody named Lietwiler to Parke. The really telling part of it is it speaking of the Japanese naval code. It says, "By November 16, 1941 (Manila time) Lietweiler informed Parke that he was "reading enough current traffic to keep two translators very busy." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke: The...​

Obviously, it was in FDR's best interest to keep this information as secret as possible. And it is still being kept secret. For any cryptographers back then, it was in their best interest to shut up about the matter. In this next website it speaks of another cryptographer named William Friedman. Though what he had to say came from what his wife had to say on the matter. Probably after his death. I would assume it is what happened when they both heard about the 'surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor. He paced back and forth in their home and muttered to himself repeatedly, "But they knew, they knew, they knew." Here is the website that speaks of it and other matters.


https://covertactionmagazine.com/20...dence-demonstrating-government-foreknowledge/

Eighty Years of Lies: President... - CovertAction Magazine​

This next website posts a quote that was stated by an army board of inquiry in 1944. It says, "...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies​

Here is another website for you on the matter.

https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/pearl-harbor-81st-anniversary

81 Years After Pearl Harbor, We... - The Free Thought Project​

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett​

Yet another lying Conspiracy theory from a site that panders conspiracy nut job. FDR did NOT know about the Dec. 7 attack. He knew that large for of JapaNavy ships had left their home waters, but had no idea where they were. Stop the bullshit.

 

[goodluck]

It was all declassified on it's 50th

At least in what our Gub'Mit wanted us to know

and so the debate will always be 'what they knew and when'

~S~

As far as I'm concerned, there is no more debate. For example, there was a trial conducted by the Naval Court of Inquiry and the Army Pearl Harbor board about the responsibility of Admiral Kimmel. In 1944, the verdict ended with these words. "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." Roosevelt ordered that this verdict be made confidential. Later he ordered another investigation that came up with basically the opposite conclusions.

 

[goodluck]

The Hoover-Ladd memos show that Army intelligence knew the attack was coming several days before it occurred. The memos are about the disclosure to the FBI by the chief of Army counterintelligence that Army intelligence knew at least two days in advance that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. What makes the memos so telling and important is that they were never intended to see the light of day. Hoover and Ladd wanted this bombshell info kept secret--forever.


Yes, I completely agree. This has all been established.



We know that FDR and his cronies thought the damage would be minimal and that they were shocked by the amount of damage the Japanese did. They viewed the Japanese through racist lens and regarded them as lousy pilots and as being vastly inferior at aerial warfare. This has been covered in a number of books, many of the same books that document the points you made above about our knowing when and where the attack would occur.

Knox was stunned by the damage when he visited Pearl Harbor a few days after the attack. The damage was far more than he was expecting. This was one of the two reasons he decided to reveal to Admiral Tolley that FDR knew about the attack and purposely allowed it to happen. The other reason was that he realized that someone had blocked the warning he had sent to Pearl Habor on December 6, and he was understandably furious about it.



I knew Tom Kimmel. We discussed the foreknowledge evidence on several occasions. He was good people.

The sending of the carriers away from Hawaii before the attack does seem suspicious, but the cover story that was given is plausible. However, the sending to sea of FDR's favorite ship two days before the attack has no plausible explanation.

On the afternoon of 5 December 1941, less than 48 hours before the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USS Indianapolis, well known to be FDR's favorite ship in the Navy, received an unusual order to leave Hawaii immediately and to proceed to Johnston Island. The ship departed in such a rush that most of the crew members were left behind. There was no apparent reason for this strange, hurried departure. Daniel Brady was a junior enlisted man on the USS Indianapolis at the time (he retired as a senior non-commissioned officer). Brady strongly believed that the ship’s unusual and convenient departure proved that “somebody” knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.

When the Indianapolis's strange and suspicious departure became publicized, the Navy offered two implausible, contradictory stories to explain the incident. One story was that the ship took supplies and personnel to Johnston Island. The other story was that the ship did bombardment training at Johnston Island.

Neither story explains why the ship left so hurriedly and with only part of her crew. There were several cargo ships that could have taken supplies to Johnston Island. Heavy cruisers such as the Indianapolis usually did not perform such missions. The bombardment-training story is even more implausible, since the full crew would have been needed for such training, and such training was always scheduled well in advance to ensure full readiness and full crew participation.

As to anything FDR and his cronies thought would happen should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, I have been looking into one aspect of this matter. From what you say, you must have heard about it. There was apparently a trial held into what responsibility Admiral Kimmel had in the whole affair. It was conducted by the Naval Court of Inquiry and the Army Pearl Harbor Board. In 1944, their verdict ended with these words. "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." The verdict reached was ordered to be made confidential by FDR. Later on, he saw to it that another investigation into the whole matter was done. The conclusion that was reached was basically just the opposite.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Oh joy. And I bet goodluck still thinks the September 11 attacks were really a controlled demolition. Just ask the Naudet brothers who filmed both planes slamming into the towers, or retired FDNY Battalion Chief Pfeiffer, who lost his brother when the towers fell. They were eyewitnesses to that.

 

[goodluck]

There is no evidence whatsoever of prior specific knowledge about Pearly Harbor.

Your first link makes a SUGGESTION and clearly uses that term. Which means they are only making a supposition. That is not evidence

The rest of your links are tired conspiracy theory sites which have no evidence. On december seventh it was known that the Japanese were likely to attack somewhere but there was never any specific knowledge of where and when

Suggestion? The first link I posted was of a letter from a cryptographer named Leitwiler to somebody named Parke. There was no "suggestion" about any of it. In the letter he was speaking of the Japanese naval code. It said that as of November 16, 1941 (Manila time). he was "reading enough current traffic to keep two translators very busy."