Treason At Pearl Harbor.

[AZrailwhale]

I posted a link that talked of REAL history. Also, Japanese planes from aircraft carriers sure did a number on our battle ships in Pearl Harbor. Didn't they. So without a doubt, you are the one being stupid in that regard. Battleships might be good for shelling land positions. But when it comes to projecting power over a distance, they can't compare to aircraft carriers.

That wasn’t known in 1941. Carriers were for scouting for the battle line. They only became critical in the Pacific after the Japanese sank our battle line. In the Atlantic, they were never important, The Germans, Italians and British still considered the battleships and cruisers the most important ships in the fleet.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You are hallucinating. Everybody back then new the value of aircraft carriers over battle ships. Which the Japanese proved beyond doubt in their attack on Pearl Harbor. Maybe you should give this website a look.


The National Interest
nationalinterest.org › blog › the-buzz › 1921-controversial-us-military-experiment-sunk-the-era-the-18736
In 1921, a Controversial U.S. Military Experiment 'Sunk' the Era of the Battleship | The National Interest

You just cited hindsight as a reason before it ever occurred. You just showed zero logic in your thoughts.

 

[Votto]

The Japanese diplomatic code was broken but not the military code. It was called "Magic" and only a handful of people including COS Marshall had access to it. Too many coincidences with Marshall being uncharacteristically late for work on the Day of Infamy and even with a photographic memory he couldn't remember where he was the night before. The US military message center went down just when Marshall had the decoded message in his hand and the Hawaii radar station malfunctioned. The critical Aircraft Carriers were conveniently at sea while the antiquated Battleships were sitting ducks.

Meh.

So, your position is that the military code was broken right after Pearl Harbor for whatever reason.

 

[martybegan]

It is an absolute fact that the Japanese code was broken well before Pearl Harbor

At best, you can only speculate that the Japanese did not send any messages before the attack to defend the notion that FDR did not know the attack was coming. I highly doubt that was the case though.

Trouble is, history tells us that FDR used the same device that broke the code a few months later at Midway to route the Japanese in a victory.

There is a conundrum of sorts when breaking a code during war time. If you know what you enemy will do at every turn and take actions to fight them off at every turn, then they will conclude that you must have broken their code and change it or find another way to communicate. You are then in far more danger in future conflict.

However, if you allow some devastation by not responding to their every code, they will assume you have not broken their code and continue with it. So, you let the Japanese have some victories so long as you don't let them win the war.

Thus, it certainly becomes an interesting ethical dilemma regarding ignoring certain codes that cost people their lives so that you will ultimately win the war.

If you read "at dawn we slept" you will realize that breaking the code never meant you go the whole messages, you got snippets and pieces that were put together over time, and when the other guys changed the cipher, you had to start all over again.

The code broken at the time of Pearl Harbor was the Diplomatic Code, the Naval Code had been changed right before and wasn't broken at the time.

 

[martybegan]

Meh.

So, your position is that the military code was broken right after Pearl Harbor for whatever reason.

View attachment 953056

As I stated before, breaking the code didn't mean you just printed out their messages right away.

Wouldn't it make sense for a military unit to change it's codes right before a major operation?

 

[Soupnazi630]

No. FDR knew of the attack beforehand. That makes it treason.

He did not

 

[0311]

Read the websites I gave links to. Educate yourself.

I did, you are still a lying sack of liquid shit. All you post was rehash old and worn out consirpacies. No proof, just consipracies. FDR did NOT know.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Roosevelt and his advisers did foresee a Japanese military action on December 6–7, based on available information at the time. Nevertheless, they could not pinpoint where the attack would come and thier focus was primarily on the Philippines.　

Stimson's diary entry shows the likelihood of an attack in the weeks leading up to 7 December was being discussed at the top of the US government. They discussed how Japan could be maneuvered into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to the US.

How Stimson Meant to "Maneuver" the Japanese​

Richard N. Current

The Mississippi Valley Historical Review
Vol. 40, No. 1 (Jun., 1953), pp. 67-74 (8 pages)
Published By: Oxford University Press

 

[westwall]

That wasn’t known in 1941. Carriers were for scouting for the battle line. They only became critical in the Pacific after the Japanese sank our battle line. In the Atlantic, they were never important, The Germans, Italians and British still considered the battleships and cruisers the most important ships in the fleet.

The carriers were critical for the hunter killer naval groups that knocked out the U-Boat wolfpacks.

 

[0311]

We know that a large Japanese Naval Force sailed from Hiroshima Bay on November 26, 1941. The Carriers in that attack group were: Akagi, Hiryu, Shkokaku, and Zuikaku. We know then CINC-PAC Husband Kimmel ordered William Halsey to set sail to look for that Japanese Strike Force. It was Rear Admiral William Haley refused to take the Battle Ships with him. Had that happened the attack on Pearl Harbor would have been a bust for Japan. It is an irony that three of Japanese Carriers (Akagi, Kaga and Soyru) that attacked Pearl Harbor were later sunk at Midway.

We know a 'War Warning" was sent out warning of a possible attack, the date of the attack was NOT known. We know that General Walter Short, Commanding Gerneral Army Forces on Ohau gave a stupip order to group Army Air Force planes together, making that much easier for the Japanese to destroy the U.S. Army Air Corps on Oahu.

There is no proof that FDR knew of the attack in advance, had he known it is doubtful that he would not have stripped the 7th. Fleet the destroyers he sent to the Atlantic Fleet.

 

[goodluck]

Wrong it says so specifcically in the link.

None of your links has any actual evidence.

Youa re a failure

Well, Leitwiler did make a suggestion to Parke at one point. But apart from that there is nothing suggestive about the whole thing. It is all pure fact. Another point is that it might be possible to dig up a photocopy of the original letter. But I have run across people like you on many topics. No amount of evidence is good enough for you.

 

[goodluck]

yes debunked and disproven

Both your stupid clam and holocaust denial.

No one has been shut up they have been marginalized as proven liars and frauds LIKE YOU

Interesting fantasy world you live in.

 

[goodluck]

You're a subscriber to holocaust denial?

You're a subscriber to being a ***** to judaism?

 

[goodluck]

That makes it delusional on your part

I posted many links to websites in my thread. Read them.

 

[goodluck]

We know that a large Japanese Naval Force sailed from Hiroshima Bay on November 26, 1941. The Carriers in that attack group were: Akagi, Hiryu, Shkokaku, and Zuikaku. We know then CINC-PAC Husband Kimmel ordered William Halsey to set sail to look for that Japanese Strike Force. It was Rear Admiral William Haley refused to take the Battle Ships with him. Had that happened the attack on Pearl Harbor would have been a bust for Japan. It is an irony that three of Japanese Carriers (Akagi, Kaga and Soyru) that attacked Pearl Harbor were later sunk at Midway.

We know a 'War Warning" was sent out warning of a possible attack, the date of the attack was NOT known. We know that General Walter Short, Commanding Gerneral Army Forces on Ohau gave a stupip order to group Army Air Force planes together, making that much easier for the Japanese to destroy the U.S. Army Air Corps on Oahu.

There is no proof that FDR knew of the attack in advance, had he known it is doubtful that he would not have stripped the 7th. Fleet the destroyers he sent to the Atlantic Fleet.

If you want to know what really happened, read the websites I gave links to in my thread.

 

[goodluck]

That wasn’t known in 1941. Carriers were for scouting for the battle line. They only became critical in the Pacific after the Japanese sank our battle line. In the Atlantic, they were never important, The Germans, Italians and British still considered the battleships and cruisers the most important ships in the fleet.

So, you live in fantasy land too. Big surprise.

 

[goodluck]

You just cited hindsight as a reason before it ever occurred. You just showed zero logic in your thoughts.

"Hindsight?" I call it history.

 

[goodluck]

I did, you are still a lying sack of liquid shit. All you post was rehash old and worn out consirpacies. No proof, just consipracies. FDR did NOT know.

I doubt if you did. Because if you did you wouldn't still be so stupid on the matter.

 

[goodluck]

Roosevelt and his advisers did foresee a Japanese military action on December 6–7, based on available information at the time. Nevertheless, they could not pinpoint where the attack would come and thier focus was primarily on the Philippines.　

Stimson's diary entry shows the likelihood of an attack in the weeks leading up to 7 December was being discussed at the top of the US government. They discussed how Japan could be maneuvered into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to the US.

How Stimson Meant to "Maneuver" the Japanese​

Richard N. Current

The Mississippi Valley Historical Review
Vol. 40, No. 1 (Jun., 1953), pp. 67-74 (8 pages)
Published By: Oxford University Press

The websites I gave links to in my thread tell what really happened.

 

[Stryder50]

The carriers were critical for the hunter killer naval groups that knocked out the U-Boat wolfpacks.

Correct!
Before Dec. 1941 the Allies=UK were aware of the need and usefulness of carrier borne aircraft to provide U-boat protection for the Atlantic convoys. Escort carriers (CVE) are the designs eventually settled upon for that task as well as for the Hunter-Killer Groups.
...
The Royal Navy had recognized a need for carriers to defend its trade routes in the 1930s.[1] While designs had been prepared for "trade protection carriers" and five suitable liners identified for conversion, nothing further was done mostly because there were insufficient aircraft for even the fleet carriers under construction at the time. However, by 1940 the need had become urgent and HMS Audacity was converted from the captured German merchant ship MV Hannover and commissioned in July 1941.[2] For defense from German aircraft, convoys were supplied first with fighter catapult ships and CAM ships that could carry a single (disposable) fighter. In the interim, before escort carriers could be supplied, they also brought in merchant aircraft carriers that could operate four aircraft.

In 1940, U.S. Admiral William Halsey recommended construction of naval auxiliaries for pilot training.[3] In early 1941 the British asked the U.S. to build on their behalf six carriers of an improved Audacity design, but the U.S. had already begun their own escort carrier.[4] On 1 February 1941, the United States Chief of Naval Operations gave priority to construction of naval auxiliaries for aircraft transport.[5] U.S. ships built to meet these needs were initially referred to as auxiliary aircraft escort vessels (AVG) in February 1942 and then auxiliary aircraft carrier (ACV) on 5 August 1942.[6] The first U.S. example of the type was USS Long Island. Operation Torch and North Atlantic anti-submarine warfare proved these ships capable aircraft carriers for ship formations moving at the speed of trade or amphibious invasion convoys. U.S. classification revision to escort aircraft carrier (CVE) on 15 July 1943 reflected upgraded status from auxiliary to combatant.[7] They were informally known as "Jeep carriers" or "baby flattops". It was quickly found that the escort carriers had better performance than light carriers, which tended to pitch badly in moderate to high seas. The Commencement Bay class was designed to incorporate the best features of American CVLs on a more stable hull with a less expensive propulsion system.
...

Escort carrier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, aircraft carriers had proven a value for fleet engagements long before Dec. 1941. The Swordfish (Stringbag) torpedo aircraft from USN carriers had damaged the German battleship Bismark, jamming it's rudder, such that it could be found and sunk by the fleet cruisers and battleships (April 1941).

Prior to that was the Battle of Taranto, which could be consider the "inspiration" for Japan's Pearl Harbor attack.
...
The Battle of Taranto took place on the night of 11/12 November 1940 during the Second World War between British naval forces, under Admiral Andrew Cunningham, and Italian naval forces, under Admiral Inigo Campioni. The Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft ship-to-ship naval attack in history, employing 21 Fairey Swordfish biplane torpedo bombers from the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious in the Mediterranean Sea.

The attack struck the battle fleet of the Regia Marina at anchor in the harbour of Taranto, using aerial torpedoes despite the shallowness of the water. The success of this attack augured the ascendancy of naval aviation over the big guns of battleships. According to Admiral Cunningham, "Taranto, and the night of 11–12 November 1940, should be remembered forever as having shown once and for all that in the Fleet Air Arm the Navy has its most devastating weapon."[1]
...

Battle of Taranto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Carriers also played a valuable early war rolle in escorting convoys to Malta and as 'ferry' for fighters to fly off to Malta. And there were a couple of other naval engagements during the early ETO where the absence of carriers proved detrimental to Allied outcome.