Time to Pull the Plug on EV’s

[ding]

I have no issue with an electric motor car...
What I do have issue with is how that motor gets electricity. Battery technology is not sufficient to work well enough for long enough.
only so many charges on a LiOn battery before it goes bad. And considering the price of these things...I never buy new. The depreciation of these things has to be enormous...practically worthless after a year of ownership.

but some sort of generating capacity in line with the electric motor...that can and will work. Its going to take a while before any of this is viable. GM has been at it the longest and has the best results. And I think that if they continue they will have something marketable sooner rather than later. The batteries they are making now are not going to go to waste...they will fit right into a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car just fine.

To do it correctly they would need to establish standard battery designs and figure out how to make them replaceable - which is no small engineering feat - and design the batteries to be "easily" recyclable - also no small engineering feat.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Hydrogen is the best future plan.

Yeah, expensive, explosive, hard to make, hard to store.

Sounds dreamy!

 

[JohnDB]

Yeah, expensive, explosive, hard to make, hard to store.

Sounds dreamy!

Nope....actually I once thought so too.
Look at the articles I posted above.

The hydrogen fuel cells use hydrocarbon fuels for the hydrogen....meaning methanol and ethanol. The military has versions based on JP8 which is kerosine based.

The hydrogen stored is about a shotgun shell sized amount. Not enough to do anything.
The semipermiable membrane is made with platinum....and the stack using this membrane is really expensive. But they have it at half the size once used and affordable.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nope....actually I once thought so too.
Look at the articles I posted above.

The hydrogen fuel cells use hydrocarbon fuels for the hydrogen....meaning methanol and ethanol. The military has versions based on JP8 which is kerosine based.

The hydrogen stored is about a shotgun shell sized amount. Not enough to do anything.
The semipermiable membrane is made with platinum....and the stack using this membrane is really expensive. But they have it at half the size once used and affordable.

The hydrogen fuel cells use hydrocarbon fuels for the hydrogen....meaning methanol and ethanol. The military has versions based on JP8 which is kerosine based.

Why do you want to waste some of the energy in the hydrocarbon fuel?

 

[woodwork201]

Yeah, expensive, explosive, hard to make, hard to store.

Sounds dreamy!

Yeah, like storing electricity and gasoline and diesel fuel and natural gas.

These are all solvable technical challenges.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yeah, like storing electricity and gasoline and diesel fuel and natural gas.

These are all solvable technical challenges.

Hydrogen is many times harder, and more expensive, to store than electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel and natural gas. What's the benefit?

 

[woodwork201]

Hydrogen is many times harder, and more expensive, to store than electricity, gasoline, diesel fuel and natural gas. What's the benefit?

And you are suggesting that technology and science can't overcome those challenges?

The benefit is that it is completely clean and completely sustainable forever. It wold have been interesting to hear you on the subject of flying in the early days of the 20th century.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And you are suggesting that technology and science can't overcome those challenges?

The benefit is that it is completely clean and completely sustainable forever. It wold have been interesting to hear you on the subject of flying in the early days of the 20th century.

The benefit is that it is completely clean and completely sustainable forever.

Why is it cleaner? Where are you getting the hydrogen?

 

[woodwork201]

The benefit is that it is completely clean and completely sustainable forever.

Why is it cleaner? Where are you getting the hydrogen?

Water.

A new way to generate hydrogen fuel from seawater | Stanford News

A Stanford-led team has now developed a way to harness seawater – Earth’s most abundant source – for chemical energy.

news.stanford.edu

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Water.

A new way to generate hydrogen fuel from seawater | Stanford News

A Stanford-led team has now developed a way to harness seawater – Earth’s most abundant source – for chemical energy.

news.stanford.edu

So if we burn coal to generate hydrogen, that counts as clean?

 

[Captain Caveman]

Yeah, expensive, explosive, hard to make, hard to store.

Sounds dreamy!

The gas network in the UK have built a street of houses and the pipework installed is a combination of all the different current pipes out there; copper, cast iron, plastic etc.. They're researching the application of replacing the current gas with hydrogen. Then you convert your gas boiler or buy a boiler already geared up to use hydrogen.

 

[Batcat]

The Achilles’ heel of vehicle electrification is the lithium-ion battery, an inefficient, costly and vulnerable energy-storage system plagued by issues of weight, energy density, low performance in cold weather and grid adequacy — and now also by skyrocketing prices of the key minerals it requires: lithium, cobalt and nickel.

The electric mobility paradigm needs to be recognized for what it has been: a technical and fiscal flop. It should be shelved before it precipitates a serious meltdown of the automotive industry.

It should also be noted it takes over 500,000 pounds of earth to be moved by diesel guzzling machines to make ONE EV battery.

Opinion: Do electric cars ever emerge from policy intensive care?

The electric mobility paradigm needs to be recognized for what it has been: a technical and fiscal flop

financialpost.com

Occasionally a hurricane threatens a highly populated area and citizens are urged to evacuate. Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and Hurricane Charlie that caused the evacuation of the Tampa Bay Area are examples.

In an evacuation major traffic jams occur. No matter how many charging stations you have there would not be enough to charge all the cars leaving a city at the same time in a major evacuation. It is possible that many people would be stuck on a freeway with a discharged EV would be in deep trouble in a major hurricane.

As it was Hurricane Charlie never hit Tampa Bay but I did evacuate and was caught in the major traffic jam on the Howard Franklin Bridge and also through Tampa.

I definitely would not like to be in an electric vehicle in a major hurricane stranded on a freeway. Plus often the electricity is out after a hurricane.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Occasionally a hurricane threatens a highly populated area and citizens are urged to evacuate. Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and Hurricane Charlie that caused the evacuation of the Tampa Bay Area are examples.

In an evacuation major traffic jams occur. No matter how many charging stations you have there would not be enough to charge all the cars leaving a city at the same time in a major evacuation. It is possible that many people would be stuck on a freeway with a discharged EV would be in deep trouble in a major hurricane.

As it was Hurricane Charlie never hit Tampa Bay but I did evacuate and was caught in the major traffic jam on the Howard Franklin Bridge and also through Tampa.

I definitely would not like to be in an electric vehicle in a major hurricane stranded on a freeway. Plus often the electricity is out after a hurricane.

Yep. Gas lines during those times are horrific and it only takes 5 minutes to fill up. 45 minutes to charge? Yikes.

 

[woodwork201]

So if we burn coal to generate hydrogen, that counts as clean?

I'm trying to be patient here since this shouldn't be a political or emotional thread but you're pushing.

It's 2022. We're far, far, further along toward safe hydrogen than we were in 2010, for instance. No one is suggesting that we're ready to roll out hydrogen today in any massive way. I suggested that it's the long-term solution. Science and technology will continue to make hydrogen easier to generate, less expensive, and safer.

And since you obviously don't like hydrogen and know more than all of those crazy engineers and scientists at places like MIT and Stanford, just what is it that you suggest that is cleaner than hydrogen for the long term?

 

[woodwork201]

Occasionally a hurricane threatens a highly populated area and citizens are urged to evacuate. Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and Hurricane Charlie that caused the evacuation of the Tampa Bay Area are examples.

In an evacuation major traffic jams occur. No matter how many charging stations you have there would not be enough to charge all the cars leaving a city at the same time in a major evacuation. It is possible that many people would be stuck on a freeway with a discharged EV would be in deep trouble in a major hurricane.

As it was Hurricane Charlie never hit Tampa Bay but I did evacuate and was caught in the major traffic jam on the Howard Franklin Bridge and also through Tampa.

I definitely would not like to be in an electric vehicle in a major hurricane stranded on a freeway. Plus often the electricity is out after a hurricane.

And consider that the disabled EV might be in the lanes of traffic and no one is getting out. Could happen with a gas car, too, I suppose.

 

[WinterBorn]

Virtually every car manufacturer has an EV in production or in the final stages of design.

Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevy, Ford, Genesis, GMC, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lamborghini, Lexus, Lotus, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes, Mini, Nissan, Pininfarina, Porsche, Tesla, Volkswagon and Volvo all have EVs on the market right now.

You think they will just pull the plug? And please name a single major product that didn't experience issues at the beginning or that did not improve as time and production numbers went up.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Virtually every car manufacturer has an EV in production or in the final stages of design.

Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevy, Ford, Genesis, GMC, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar, Kia, Lamborghini, Lexus, Lotus, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes, Mini, Nissan, Pininfarina, Porsche, Tesla, Volkswagon and Volvo all have EVs on the market right now.

You think they will just pull the plug? And please name a single major product that didn't experience issues at the beginning or that did not improve as time and production numbers went up.

Only because of government mandates.
Nobody but holier than thou look at me Leftards buy an EV.

 

[ding]

what is it that you suggest that is cleaner than hydrogen for the long term?

Don't expect an honest answer from Todd. He only knows how to criticize what he doesn't believe. He rarely is capable of stating what he does believe.

 

[ding]

I'm trying to be patient here since this shouldn't be a political or emotional thread but you're pushing.

It's 2022. We're far, far, further along toward safe hydrogen than we were in 2010, for instance. No one is suggesting that we're ready to roll out hydrogen today in any massive way. I suggested that it's the long-term solution. Science and technology will continue to make hydrogen easier to generate, less expensive, and safer.

And since you obviously don't like hydrogen and know more than all of those crazy engineers and scientists at places like MIT and Stanford, just what is it that you suggest that is cleaner than hydrogen for the long term?

From a commercial standpoint, hydrogen is a tough nut to crack because it costs more energy to break the bond with oxygen than the energy you get from combining hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell or from combusting hydrogen in an ICE. Hydrogen does have storage and other challenges (see link) but the commerciality of generating hydrogen seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.

What is Hydrogen Storage and How Does it Work?

Hydrogen can be stored either as a gas or as a liquid. Hydrogen gas storage typically requires the use of high pressure tanks, while liquid hydrogen storage requires cryogenic temperatures to prevent it boiling back into a gas. Hydrogen can also be stored on the surface of (adsorption) or within...

www.twi-global.com

 

[ding]

what is it that you suggest that is cleaner than hydrogen for the long term?

I don't believe anything is cleaner to burn or use in a fuel cell than hydrogen as either process produces water as its byproduct as you have already mentioned. But a cleaner product to combust than gasoline or diesel would be natural gas which is abundant and relatively cheap. It's already commercially viable and is a high energy density source compared to battery technology.