Three years left to limit warming to 1.5C, leading scientists warn

[ReinyDays]

That is partially true, but temperature and salinity changes are every bit as important.

Not by the number of joules ... salinity currents are 1/200's the velocity and much smaller volume ... tiny amounts of momentum by comparison to the wind currents at the surface ...

In the age of sail ... mariners sailed south from Europe first to catch the Trade Winds to the Caribbean ... then north along the East Coast and then to Europe on the Westerlies ...

 

[ding]

What drives ocean currents, in your opinion.

Density differences - salinity and temperature - and wind.

 

[westwall]

Not by the number of joules ... salinity currents are 1/200's the velocity and much smaller volume ... tiny amounts of momentum by comparison to the wind currents at the surface ...

In the age of sail ... mariners sailed south from Europe first to catch the Trade Winds to the Caribbean ... then north along the East Coast and then to Europe on the Westerlies ...

Correct, using the WIND, not the ocean currents. Surface currents are short lived. They last only so long as some other force doesn't interfere.

Such as another wind, from another direction.

 

[westwall]

Density differences - salinity and temperature - and wind.

Ok, what causes the density differential?

 

[ding]

Ok, what causes the density differential?

Influx of freshwater and mixing of warm water with cold water. Both primarily at the polar regions.

How does the sun cause this?

 

[westwall]

Influx of freshwater and mixing of warm waters. Both primarily at the polar regions.

How does the sun cause this?

View attachment 1136514

The Sun warms the water at the equator, that plume of water then begins to spread out, coriolis effect then concentrates it in a ribbon, which then flows north and south along the continental shelves.

Temperature is the primary engine that creates currents.

Density changes=temperature differential

 

[ding]

The Sun warms the water at the equator, that plume of water then begins to spread out, coriolis effect then concentrates it in a ribbon, which then flows north and south along the continental shelves.

Temperature is the primary engine that creates currents.

Density changes=temperature differential

So how does the sun cause the northern hemisphere to glaciate and then deglaciate?

 

[westwall]

So how does the sun cause the northern hemisphere to glaciate and then deglaciate?

When the solar output drops low enough, the overall temperature of the oceans drop, the ocean currents reduce in strength, thus that warm water doesn't make it to the polar regions to warm them up.

You have to have a temperature gradient for the currents to operate. Lowering the ocean temperatures removes that gradient.

It's called THERMOhaline circulation for a reason. The cold polar water, saturated with halides, goes deep, moves towards the equator, which pushes the warm waters north and south to the polar regions.

Remove the heat, and the system fails.

 

[ding]

When the solar output drops low enough, the overall temperature of the oceans drop, the ocean currents reduce in strength, thus that warm water doesn't make it to the polar regions to warm them up.

You have to have a temperature gradient for the currents to operate. Lowering the ocean temperatures removes that gradient.

So you believe the sun’s output is cyclically going up and down?

 

[westwall]

So you believe the sun’s output is cyclically going up and down?

The Sun has a very well known 11 year cycle. Lesser known cycles are the Gleissberg, which is a 100 year cycle, the Halstatt cycle which is 2300 years IIRC, and there are a couple more that I don't remember the details of.

The problem is the Sun operates on a scale we can't really comprehend. We have only been able to really study it well for about 50 years, and even there what we are discovering is how little we actually KNOW about what goes on in the solar interior.

 

[ding]

When the solar output drops low enough, the overall temperature of the oceans drop, the ocean currents reduce in strength, thus that warm water doesn't make it to the polar regions to warm them up.

You have to have a temperature gradient for the currents to operate. Lowering the ocean temperatures removes that gradient.

It's called THERMOhaline circulation for a reason. The cold polar water, saturated with halides, goes deep, moves towards the equator, which pushes the warm waters north and south to the polar regions.

Remove the heat, and the system fails.

You seem to be missing the key point. When Thermohaline circulation is disrupted the northern hemisphere will get much much colder. The sun is shining just the same. It’s the negative feedback which produces extensive continental glaciation but the trigger is the loss of heat being circulated from the Atlantic to the arctic.

 

[westwall]

You seem to be missing the key point. When Thermohaline circulation is disrupted the northern hemisphere will get much much colder. The sun is shining just the same. It’s the negative feedback which produces extensive continental glaciation but the trigger is the loss of heat being circulated from the Atlantic to the arctic.

I didn't miss it at all. The Sun doesn’t shine the same. That's the point. It goes in to "cool" phases where the solar radiation making it to the Earth is reduced.

Look up "Cool Sun" for some interesting reading.

 

[ding]

I didn't miss it at all. The Sun doesn’t shine the same. That's the point. It goes in to "cool" phases where the solar radiation making it to the Earth is reduced.

Look up "Cool Sun" for some interesting reading.

The sun is not causing this. And you have yet to explain how the sun triggers interglacial periods.

 

[westwall]

The sun is not causing this. And you have yet to explain how the sun triggers interglacial periods.

View attachment 1136529

What happens if the Sun stops shining?

 

[ding]

What happens if the Sun stops shining?

We’re all fucked. Can you tell me how the sun triggers interglacial periods?

 

[westwall]

We’re all fucked. Can you tell me how the sun triggers interglacial periods?

That's not very specific. Give us some detail about what would happen when the Sun stops shining.

Why would those things happen?

This is called a thought experiment. Take a position at the extreme, and work back to where you are.

You seem to be ignoring the billions of years of energy that the Sun has been injecting into the Earth's energy budget.

No one knows what the mechanism is that drives glacial periods. There are a lot of theories, but one thing that I KNOW, is if the Sun stops shining the global temp drops to zero in a week.

So, with that knowledge, I can be safe in assuming that glacial periods are tied to the Sun. The question is, what must line up to create that glacial period.

I don't think that the Sun is the sole cause, but I do think it is a major element. The question is how much.

 

[ding]

That's not very specific. Give us some detail about what would happen when the Sun stops shining.

Why would those things happen?

This is called a thought experiment. Take a position at the extreme, and work back to where you are.

You seem to be ignoring the billions of years of energy that the Sun has been injecting into the Earth's energy budget.

No one knows what the mechanism is that drives glacial periods. There are a lot of theories, but one thing that I KNOW, is if the Sun stops shining the global temp drops to zero in a week.

So, with that knowledge, I can be safe in assuming that glacial periods are tied to the Sun. The question is, what must line up to create that glacial period.

I don't think that the Sun is the sole cause, but I do think it is a major element. The question is how much.

This is getting ridiculous. Yes, the sun plays a role. It provides a remarkably constant output for a star its class. It heats the surface of the planet unevenly and that is why we have wind and ocean currents. It’s role in glacial cycles is mostly limited to wind patterns which affect ocean currents.

Not to worry though, this will all come out when the AMOC collapses and ends this AGW nonsense.

In the meantime, you might want to investigate D-O events during the last glacial periods which caused abrupt 8C warming and 8C abrupt cooling over the period of several decades. Which could have only been caused by changing ocean currents.

 

[EMH]

Greenland FROZE while North America THAWED during the past

10k
20k
50k
1 million years

take your pick...

The Sun and ATMOSPHERE, and hence CO2 in atmosphere, are hence eliminated as suspects...

Thread 'Apparently we really need a "debate" over the term ICE AGE because y'all are all wrong...'

Jun 23, 2023

What is an ICE AGE?

Most apparently still believe it is a terrifying horror movie event where Earth all at once freezes up. The data has never supported such a scenario. Since 2010, there has been a massive effort to re-write Earth climate history into a series of rapid "glaciations" and ice retreats, as if "Day After Tomorrow" movie is accurate... LOL!!! What was North American Ice Age before 2010 is now spun into a series of rapid "ice ages" where it took a mere 75k years for the "ice age" to start in Northern Canada and put 2.5 mile thick glaicers on Chicago. This is "Milankovich"...

• EMH
• Replies: 338
• Forum: Environment

• 
• 
• 

 

[westwall]

This is getting ridiculous. Yes, the sun plays a role. It provides a remarkably constant output for a star its class. It heats the surface of the planet unevenly and that is why we have wind and ocean currents. It’s role in glacial cycles is mostly limited to wind patterns which affect ocean currents.

Not to worry though, this will all come out when the AMOC collapses and ends this AGW nonsense.

In the meantime, you might want to investigate D-O events during the last glacial periods which caused abrupt 8C warming and 8C abrupt cooling over the period of several decades. Which could have only been caused by changing ocean currents.

You like to claim that Sun is constant. It isn't. During a Grand Minimum the UV output reduction can reach 7%. It is the UV that matters, because it is the UV, and ONLY the UV that can penetrate deeply into the oceans to maintain their temperature.

Why could those temperature changes only have been because of ocean currents?

First for the rapid cooling it is far more likely that a massive volcanic eruption is the cause.

As far as the warming goes, is that ACTUAL warming, or merely a rebound to the former temperatures?

The Sun drives the ocean currents, without the billions of years of UV energy being dumped into the oceans, there would be no thermohaline circulation.

 

[ding]

You like to claim that Sun is constant. It isn't. During a Grand Minimum the UV output reduction can reach 7%. It is the UV that matters, because it is the UV, and ONLY the UV that can penetrate deeply into the oceans to maintain their temperature.

Why could those temperature changes only have been because of ocean currents?

First for the rapid cooling it is far more likely that a massive volcanic eruption is the cause.

As far as the warming goes, is that ACTUAL warming, or merely a rebound to the former temperatures?

The Sun drives the ocean currents, without the billions of years of UV energy being dumped into the oceans, there would be no thermohaline circulation.

The sun is remarkably constant for it’s class.

Explain D-O events using the sun.