Thomas Jefferson - Christian or Deist?

[DriftingSand]

Such as buy and sell other human beings?

He renounced the practice in his old age. His granddaughter was outspokenly opposed to slavery and Grandpa Jefferson sent a letter to her agreeing with her. Nevertheless, the vast majority of his actions were moral ones.

That is up for dispute. As I said, what he believed does not matter. Whether all of his actions were moral, does not matter. We are not based upon the beliefs on any one man, or even a group of me. We are based upon laws, which were written by those men but modified by each new generation. It doesn't matter a whit what he was.

It matters to me what he was about and what he believed. His beliefs have direct impact upon his writings including the Constitution.

 

[Chuckt]

Such as buy and sell other human beings?

As your ancestors probably did as well. Even blacks bought and sold other blacks. Trace your own history back far enough, and it will not all be pretty.

Many things were done by our ancestors that we no longer accept as proper behavior.

No argument. However, the point being made dealt with this one, specific person whom DS suggested was "A man with a high moral standard...". This specific man was a slave owner. Would you consider that a high moral standard?

It's important to note that when these anti-slavery societies were founded, they were clearly an act of civil disobedience. In 1774, for example, Pennsylvania passed a law to end slavery. But King George vetoed that law and other laws passed by the colonies. The King was pro-slavery, and Great Britain (at that time) practiced slavery. As long as the colonies were part of the British Empire, they would also be required to permit slavery.

Slavery in America - How Did the Founders and Early Christians Regard It? - Probe Ministries

They tried to end it back then but the King of England vetoed our laws to end slavery.

 

[DriftingSand]

According to modern men ... Jefferson was NOT a Christian but according to Jefferson, he was. Who do you believe?

None of the above!

If Jefferson was a Christian then that is a personal matter for him alone.

Today the internet is rife with alleged quotations from the Founding Fathers to the point where I no longer trust any quote from a biased source.

Instead I look to the motivations.

Why is it so important that Jefferson was a Christian?

As far as I am concerned his legacy is not his religious belief at all. It was what he passed down to us in the Constitution.

So when I see those who are trying to co-opt Jefferson as being a "Christian" it makes me question what they seek to gain by making this claim?

Is their motive pure or are they seeking legitimacy for something else that they are doing?

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

*Disclaimer: I am not accusing the OP of having any agenda. This is just my own personal position when it comes to the FF's and their legacies.

For me, it's an offset. There are agendas on both sides of "the aisle" but we're seeing an increasing push of the idea that the Founders were "deists" when just the opposite is true. If it's not an issue then why are secularists so insistent that "most of the Founders were deists" when that simply isn't true? I'm all about facts and truth. The fact is that our nation and Constitution were brainchildren of Christian men who fought, bled, and died so that modern Americans could enjoy the freedoms that we do. I just like to give credit where credit is due.

 

[peach174]

Such as buy and sell other human beings?

He renounced the practice in his old age. His granddaughter was outspokenly opposed to slavery and Grandpa Jefferson sent a letter to her agreeing with her. Nevertheless, the vast majority of his actions were moral ones.

That is up for dispute. As I said, what he believed does not matter. Whether all of his actions were moral, does not matter. We are not based upon the beliefs on any one man, or even a group of me. We are based upon laws, which were written by those men but modified by each new generation. It doesn't matter a whit what he was.

It matters a great deal, our Founders is the belief of our system of freedom from government. The Federal Government can not pass bills that violate the Constitution.
Your way of thinking is what the big government controllers want
Thinking that way makes it so that Government can pass anything and have the Courts rule whether or not it is unconstitutional. That is totally opposite of our Constitution.

 

[DriftingSand]

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

I realize that modern "educators" have a mandate to sell the idea that Jefferson was for a "wall of separation" but that, too, isn't completely true. Jefferson wanted to protect religion from government but he was not opposed to the idea of religious folks influencing government. That's another reason why it's important for me to reveal his religious standards (considering the fact that his moral beliefs had a direct influence on the Constitution that he helped write).

 

[peach174]

According to modern men ... Jefferson was NOT a Christian but according to Jefferson, he was. Who do you believe?

None of the above!

If Jefferson was a Christian then that is a personal matter for him alone.

Today the internet is rife with alleged quotations from the Founding Fathers to the point where I no longer trust any quote from a biased source.

Instead I look to the motivations.

Why is it so important that Jefferson was a Christian?

As far as I am concerned his legacy is not his religious belief at all. It was what he passed down to us in the Constitution.

So when I see those who are trying to co-opt Jefferson as being a "Christian" it makes me question what they seek to gain by making this claim?

Is their motive pure or are they seeking legitimacy for something else that they are doing?

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

*Disclaimer: I am not accusing the OP of having any agenda. This is just my own personal position when it comes to the FF's and their legacies.

Jefferson gave us the Declaration of Independence.
Jefferson was the ambassador to France at the time when the Constitution was being written and was living in Paris.

This is what Jefferson wanted all future generations of Americans to remember him for.
Written on his Headstone by his instructions.

He loved Religious Freedom and Education.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Anyone who would deny his own children, and condemn them to slavery, as well, may be a Diest, or he may be a Christian, but he was undeniably an asshole.

 

[norwegen]

Anyone who would deny his own children, and condemn them to slavery, as well, may be a Diest, or he may be a Christian, but he was undeniably an asshole.

This post is proof that liberals founded this country.

 

[peach174]

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

I realize that modern "educators" have a mandate to sell the idea that Jefferson was for a "wall of separation" but that, too, isn't completely true. Jefferson wanted to protect religion from government but he was not opposed to the idea of religious folks influencing government. That's another reason why it's important for me to reveal his religious standards (considering the fact that his moral beliefs had a direct influence on the Constitution that he helped write).

Jefferson did not write the Constitution. His correspondence from France helped to influence some of it but he did not write it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

I realize that modern "educators" have a mandate to sell the idea that Jefferson was for a "wall of separation" but that, too, isn't completely true. Jefferson wanted to protect religion from government but he was not opposed to the idea of religious folks influencing government. That's another reason why it's important for me to reveal his religious standards (considering the fact that his moral beliefs had a direct influence on the Constitution that he helped write).

Jefferson wanted to protect the people from the excesses of religion too. The FF's were educated men who knew all about the "divine right of kings" and the bloody wars between the Catholics and Protestants.

So the logical choice of separating religion from government was pragmatic because it meant that there would be a Constitutional means to keep out undue influence.

Yes, you are correct that they had no intention of requiring religious folks to renounce their beliefs when assuming office. What was intended was that they would not use those beliefs when making policy decisions.

Just as you rail against the secularists having an "agenda" there is a religious "agenda" that is trying to impose religious beliefs as law. As far as I am concerned the wall of separation is needed today more than ever.

You raised the subject of morals so I am going to pose a question to you. Is it moral to force everyone to use the term "under God" when they say the pledge of allegiance?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Such as buy and sell other human beings?

As your ancestors probably did as well. Even blacks bought and sold other blacks. Trace your own history back far enough, and it will not all be pretty.

Many things were done by our ancestors that we no longer accept as proper behavior.

No argument. However, the point being made dealt with this one, specific person whom DS suggested was "A man with a high moral standard...". This specific man was a slave owner. Would you consider that a high moral standard?

I don't know. I never lived back then. I thought it was horrible when I was a kid and many older women dipped snuff, and there was a spittoon in every house.

Different times have a different moral code, I would hope we would learn from our mistakes, but much like everything else, human conduct seems to circle around in cycles of so many years.

 

[DriftingSand]

[MENTION=23262]peach174[/MENTION]

I'm sorry peach174. It wasn't the Constitution that Jefferson defended writing but the Declaration. My mistake. I do believe he influenced the writing of the Constitution but was NOT it's primary writer.

Jefferson's twilight years were spent, in part, defining and defending his legacy. During his final decade, Jefferson drafted an autobiography, created political memorandum books, became increasingly concerned about the preservation of historical documents, and staunchly defended his role as author of the Declaration of Independence. At key points in his life Jefferson had drawn up lists of his achievements, and on the verge of death he designed his own gravestone and epitaph: "Author of the Declaration of Independence [and] of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom & Father of the University of Virginia." Though critics questioned his role in writing the Declaration of Independence and objected to his emerging role as a symbol of individual freedom, Jefferson insisted upon his authorship of the Declaration and reasserted his moral opposition to slavery. Nevertheless, Jefferson undoubtedly knew at his death on July 4, 1826, that the vagaries of life had left a vulnerable legacy. His slaves, land, and library would have to be sold to satisfy his creditors. Fear for his reputation and public legacy led him to beg his closest friend, James Madison, to "take care of me when dead." In his final letter to Roger Weightman, Jefferson eloquently espoused the central role of the United States and the Declaration of Independence as signals of the blessings of self-government to the world.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jeffleg.html

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

I realize that modern "educators" have a mandate to sell the idea that Jefferson was for a "wall of separation" but that, too, isn't completely true. Jefferson wanted to protect religion from government but he was not opposed to the idea of religious folks influencing government. That's another reason why it's important for me to reveal his religious standards (considering the fact that his moral beliefs had a direct influence on the Constitution that he helped write).

Jefferson did not write the Constitution. His correspondence from France helped to influence some of it but he did not write it.

 

[DriftingSand]

Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as United States minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to influence the development of the federal government through his correspondence. Later his actions as the first secretary of state, vice president, leader of the first political opposition party, and third president of the United States were crucial in shaping the look of the nation's capital and defining the powers of the Constitution and the nature of the emerging republic.

Thomas Jefferson's December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution. Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits, particularly for the chief executive. During the writing and ratification of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters to friends and political acquaintances in America.

While president, Jefferson's principles were tested in many ways. For example, in order to purchase the Louisiana Territory from France he was willing to expand his narrow interpretation of the Constitution. But Jefferson stood firm in ending the importation of slaves and maintaining his view of the separation of church and state. In the end, Jefferson completed two full and eventful terms as president. He also paved the way for James Madison and James Monroe, his political protégés, to succeed him in the presidency.

Establishing A Federal Republic - Thomas Jefferson | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

 

[PratchettFan]

He renounced the practice in his old age. His granddaughter was outspokenly opposed to slavery and Grandpa Jefferson sent a letter to her agreeing with her. Nevertheless, the vast majority of his actions were moral ones.

That is up for dispute. As I said, what he believed does not matter. Whether all of his actions were moral, does not matter. We are not based upon the beliefs on any one man, or even a group of me. We are based upon laws, which were written by those men but modified by each new generation. It doesn't matter a whit what he was.

It matters to me what he was about and what he believed. His beliefs have direct impact upon his writings including the Constitution.

So what? There were a lot of people involved in that project and a considerable amount of negotiation. It has been modified many times since. What matters is the law. If more matters to you, that is your right.

 

[DriftingSand]

That is up for dispute. As I said, what he believed does not matter. Whether all of his actions were moral, does not matter. We are not based upon the beliefs on any one man, or even a group of me. We are based upon laws, which were written by those men but modified by each new generation. It doesn't matter a whit what he was.

It matters to me what he was about and what he believed. His beliefs have direct impact upon his writings including the Constitution.

So what? There were a lot of people involved in that project and a considerable amount of negotiation. It has been modified many times since. What matters is the law. If more matters to you, that is your right.

Thanks. I just like to know the truth about great leaders. Lots of misinformation floating around these days and some of it is outright lies. I'm just keeping it "real."

 

[guno]

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,



The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

 

[guno]

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,



The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.“ – Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

 

[guno]

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,



The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.“ – Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814.

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.


SKEPTICISM ABOUT THE BIBLE

"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs".

Source: Thomas Jefferson, Works, Vol. IV, p. 360.

"The whole history of these books (i.e. the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, January 24, 1814.

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him (i.e. Jesus) by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to William Short, April 13, 1820.

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."


"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825.

 

[guno]

John Adams

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, 2000 Years of Disbelief--John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

James Madison


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

 

[guno]

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799