ptbw forever
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As someone who dismisses the legimate concerns of the alt-right, you have absolutely no room to talk.
Things Many White People Seem To Not Understand
- Thread starter 320 Years of History
- Start date
Unkotare
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So, according to you, any group that is successful is only because it has advantages over some other group...for whatever reason that you deem. Is that about it? If I wish to claim that martians are keeping me down because of their privilege, that my unwillingness to work, that my unwillingness to get a education, all of that is not germane. It's only the fact that they are martians. That about cover it?
Unkotare
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Don't hurt yourself by trying to think about it.
MaryL
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Being that I grew up in the early sixties, mainly white mainstream Isenhower white bread world, low crime and peaceful. The traditional 60's with it the anti establishment alt Lib world with race riots, racism and disdain for the white culture makes me wonder, is this a Brave new world?
Unkotare
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The fact that there was no 24/7 media in the 50s? The fact that not everyone in the world was a walking camera in the 50s? That the size and mandate of any border controls were very different in the 50s? If you are not on drugs you should start, because you really need an excuse.
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MaryL
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In the 50's nobody cared about illegal aliens. And surprisingly, open borders were not an problem. Open borders or Immigration, not the problem, boyo, the people that exploit illegals , use them as new era slaves and pretend that its just about jobs no one else will do when it's really about about how nouveau slave owners of either republican or democrat can excuse their dabblings with poor illegal aliens. Oh, they are Hispanic! And they didn't let them selves be used, silly me, everyone is innocent here, really?
JoeMoma
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Typing on my little iPad with my index finger, I'm not going to write (or cut and paste) a disertation in response to your post. I will fill you in on my prospective from my tiny little nitche in the world. Where I work there are many people of various races and colors with equal status to me. Our boss is a black man and he is both a good boss and a good man. In my part of the world, white privilege is no more important than many other types of privilege. A coworker friend of mine is black. His wife is white and they are about to have a daughter. We are celebrating by giving them a shower on Thursday. The playing field in my part of the world seems very level, regardless of color.
I am aware that racism still exist. It probably aways will. What I don't see is the benefit in the way "White Priviledge" is being presented other than an excuse for failure. Also, I don't believe that white privilege is so much an issue as cultural privilege. The children of a well educated two parent home are much more privileged than the children of a mother and 5 different baby's daddies regardless of the color of the parents. Some black children purposely don't do well in school because that's too white. Blacks will have little problem achieving when they adopt a culture of achievement. Many Asians out perform whites because of their culture of achievement.
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Unkotare
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You are fantasizing about a past too distant to be of personal experience in any practical way. Just more empty obtuse "dem good 'ol days" musing.
Iceweasel
Diamond Member
Those are hilarious, thanks! Who was the comedian that put it together, does he have more stuff?
Iceweasel
Diamond Member
It was a joke piece, don't tell me you took it seriously? It reminded me of the Eddy Murphey skit on SNL where he was made up like a white man and discover when no negroes were around white people partied, helped each other out and gave each other stuff.
OldLady
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That was a different thread where everyone was using the same broad brush to speak of blacks and whites as general groups and their general attitudes. Context matters. Maybe you should go work for the NYTimes.
320 Years of History
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- #237
First of all, thank you for presenting your paraphrasing of how you see the thoughts I expressed and their implications and then asking whether your representation is accurate.
Second, I know this a very long post. I don't need a rapid reply. I know there's a lot to digest here.
Third, Google the following and notice the preponderance of the types of people you see depicted:
- Normal people
- Ugly people
- Good looking people
One must be perceived as white to receive the benefits (privileges) of being white; however, everyone can succumb to the thought process that ascribes privilege to whites. Read on to see what this means.
Red:
No! Within the existential context of what white privilege is-- notice the OP's 18 points each say "white privilege is" -- that is not "about it." As I read your words, they appear to describe a cause and effect process that transcends the scope of what I wrote. What your "red" sentence appears to presume what I'm saying, in brief, amounts to this:
- Being white comes with privileges..
- Those privileges result in a variety of advantages/benefits that accrue to whites and that other similarly situations ethnicities/races do not enjoy (in the U.S.).
- Those advantages' mere existence are the only reason whites (as a class or as individuals) are successful.
- Can certain white individuals deliberately exploit one or several of their white privileges so as to achieve success? Yes.
- Do some white individuals do that? Yes.
- Do all white individuals do that? No.
- What white individuals do that? White racists and bigots.
- Can non-white individuals exploit the same privileges to enable or ensure their own success? Mostly, no.
- Why not? Because as non-whites, they have neither the privilege nor the benefits deriving from it.
- What non-white individuals may be able to exploit one or several of their white privileges so as to achieve success? The non-whites who are perceived as being white and who may be so inclined to "pass" as white. If they were to attest to being white, nobody would question it. For example (By including the photos below, I'm not suggesting/saying any of these folks, for their own part, actively attempt to "pass" or do not attempt actively to "pass."):
- Wentworth Miller -- black father; white mother -- Have you seen the TV Series Prison Break? He's on a TV show called Legends of Tomorrow too.
- Meghan Markle -- black mother; white father
- Rashida Jones -- Quincy Jones, father; Peggy Lipton, mother
- Carol Channing -- Did not reveal that she's biracial until 2002. Played the title character in Hello Dolly, a 964 Broadway musical. I can promise you, nobody saw "Dolly" as a black woman. I don't know if Carol Channing ever said, "I'm a white woman," but I suspect she may never have been asked either. I certainly would not have asked.
- Michael Fosberg --Action movie actor Michael Fosberg didn’t know that he was passing when he played white characters. He was 32 and well into his career before his mother revealed to him that the man he knew as his father wasn’t and that his real dad was a black man.
- Kris Humphries -- Irish + German + black
- Cash Warren -- half black; half white
- Wentworth Miller -- black father; white mother -- Have you seen the TV Series Prison Break? He's on a TV show called Legends of Tomorrow too.
- What non-white individuals cannot exploit one or several of white privileges so as to achieve success? (Each person below is half black and half white much as are several folks above.) If these folks said, "I'm white," who would believe them?
- Barack Obama
- Halle Berry
- Shemar Moore
- Raven Simone, Rhianna, Drake
- Rachael Dolezal -- This woman is white and chose to "pass" as black.
- Barack Obama
- Can one be white and actively give up one's white privilege? No.
- What can a white person do about white privilege?
- Be aware of what it is.
- Be aware of how it manifests itself.
- If you have a black friend, you can craft a small experiment to see it for yourself. Go together to a city shopping district (not a mall) like Madison Ave or Rodeo Drive. It doesn't need to be "posh" it just needs to be a street comprised of retail shops, hair and other grooming salons, travel agencies, and restaurants (ones that have a host/maitre d') that are open (don't try this during the Christmas season). Have your black friend walk into the business from the street while you wait across the street or down the street just so that you aren't seen to be clearly with him. Have him ask to use the restroom. You do the same. Repeat the experiment using different styles of dress, grooming, speech patterns dialects, in posh and non-posh districts, different genders between you and the friend, etc. Compare results at each store.
- Refrain from "buying into" the stereotypes that give rise and that give "legs" to it.
- What can a white person do about white privilege?
What you've noted is the distinction between white privilege and discrimination. White privilege is not racism. It is not discrimination. It is what allows racism and discrimination to exist/persist.
I have white privilege. That does not make me a racist or not a racist. That I have it does not mean I unfairly discriminate or do not unfairly discriminate for or against others, white and non-white. What I do with or as a result of my white privilege is what makes me a racist/non-racist, unfair discriminator/fair discriminator.
- I can "use" my white privilege to benefit a non-white -- I shouldn't need to do this, but that doesn't mean that there are not instances where my mere presence with a minority person, in the minds of some people (not all people, and not necessarily even some white people), confers on them a presumption of "being okay." That should not happen, but it does.
One of my black close acquaintances and I went to look at a car some time back. He'd gone to the store before, but left because nobody so much as greeted him. He was just annoyed that he wasn't accorded the presumption of being a legitimate customer.
I was mildly curious about the car brand's current offerings (I guess that's a "guy" thing), so I persuaded him to go to the store to see the car. It truly was just to kill time while our ladies were shopping. We went, a salesperson (black) approached, greeted us both, and proceeded to direct his conversation toward me. I let him go on for a minute or two, and when he finally asked how soon I might like to buy the car, I told him, "I don't intend to buy one at all. It's my friend who may buy one. I'm just along for the ride." We both "looked expensive" -- well groomed, wearing jeans, a nice shirt, expensive shoes and watches and sport jackets. (Yes, he bought the car.)
You may have seen this video. Watch it again. Hopefully you'll be able to watch it without conjuring in your mind why folks are wrong or right because a lot of it is folks discussing their emotions and generally speaking, folks are never wrong when they describe their own emotions. If you do watch it again, try to pay attention to the facial expressions and body language of the people in it. Look for folks showing dismissive body language and facial expressions. Look also for folks whose subconscious communication indicates sincerity or neutrality, or empathy/sympathy, annoyance, insouciance, guilt, and other emotions/thoughts that are provide nonverbal cues that are inconsistent with the words that come out of their mouth.
- http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2011/05/facial-expressions.aspx
- One of the best known illustrations of the disconnect between words and body language is this:
How to Tell If Someone Is Lying
- The Ultimate Guide to Body Language
- Guide to Reading Microexpressions - Science of People
Thoughts from various segments of the video:
- 5:40 -- "I found myself trying to count other white people here. I've never done anything like that before," Dakota said. He did that for the very same reason black folks do it: trepidation. He knows there are race issues in America and he's looking to figure out whether there's a "safe haven" of sorts somewhere or whether he's going to have to face "whatever" on his own and if/as it comes.
- 7:04 -- One woman mentioned that upon seeing a black person walking down the street, she went the other way just because the person was black. (That she did that is downright bizarre for presumably this happened in the town in which she lives which has one black family in it, and their kids went to the same school as she. ) Is that discrimination? No, unless one thinks that the black person may have somehow been denied a benefit by having passed her on the street. Is her behavior indicative of some sort of attitudinal bias, perhaps enough that it can be called racism? Yes.
- 7:27 -- "They may be nice in your face, but behind your back, they're going to say something." That is an expression of the trepidation and distrust of whites in general that many blacks have. Years ago, it was very often fully justified. These days, I think it's less often justified, but unlike for most of the 20th century and before where the justification was plain to see, these days, white people's behaviors and words are less overtly racist/discriminatory, so it's much harder for black folks to tell whom they can trust.
Even though it's likely the actual quantity of white's holding racist attitudes is less than in the 1940s, say, that it's harder for non-whites to tell which whites hold those views and which don't may make things worse rather than better. (It's a paradoxical dilemma that I don't mind discussing, just not in this post.) - 7:56 -- Here you get to see the very real pain associated with not having one element of privilege that white folks do. Below I share an anecdote about how I experienced something similar, however, my response was contempt and indignance, not pain or sadness. Why? Because as a white male, I knew they were being rudely presumptive, rather than racially assumptive.
I used to live in what was called the "gay ghetto." It is a term that means "a neighborhood inhabited overwhelmingly by gay people." When some straight guys who knew about the neighborhood, and who didn't know me more than in passing, learned I lived there, once in a while some of them had the gall to ask "why do you live in the gay part of town?" or "was I gay?." These people were in no position to expect me to tell them why I lived where I did.** I clearly wasn't trying to "hit on" them nor they on me, so what relevance had my sexuality to them? None, of course. (There is also the Jewish ghetto.)
But the "ghetto" -- no modifier -- means one and only one thing: a place, usually in cities/towns where poor, disadvantaged black and/or Latino folks live largely in squalor, amidst rampant crime and nobody who doesn't live there is presumed safe upon going there. Now were it so that the same basic traits -- save for being black or Latino -- understood to apply to the gay or Jewish ghetto, there'd be nothing to say. Were it so that when folks say "ghetto," (rather than, say, "gay ghetto") it would be necessary to ask, "White or black," there'd be nothing to say.
Now one might say that being "trailer trash" is the white equivalent of being "ghetto." There's no question many similarities exist between the folks who live in each. Yet, even there white privilege, though not much of it, accrues to "trailer trash" folks that does not accrue to "ghetto" folks.
- White Trash Blues: Class Privilege v. White Privilege
- Black lives, privilege and poor, white trash
- Poor Whites and Blacks Have Much in Common. But...
**Note:
Hell, some of them neither asked nor were invented to refer to me by my first name, yet they took it upon themselves to do so. Perhaps they felt taking that liberty made us more closely acquainted?.... I don't know; neither did I try to find out. ....At any rate, nothing could have been farther from the truth. It militated for my keeping them at a distance. I've never been slow to invite folks to use my given name, but I don't cotton to folks unbidden obliging themselves of doing so.
Hell, some of them neither asked nor were invented to refer to me by my first name, yet they took it upon themselves to do so. Perhaps they felt taking that liberty made us more closely acquainted?.... I don't know; neither did I try to find out. ....At any rate, nothing could have been farther from the truth. It militated for my keeping them at a distance. I've never been slow to invite folks to use my given name, but I don't cotton to folks unbidden obliging themselves of doing so.
I can't force folks to treat me the way I, anyone deserves to be treated. I can, however, keep them from ingratiating themselves with me. I learn a tiny bit about another's character based on, among other things, what liberties they take verus which they await being offered.
I'm not suggesting those fellows aren't nice people; they may well have been and be; I never let them get close enough to me to find out because they didn't see fit, as matter of course, to accord to me the level of respect I gave them. They just aren't the kind of people whom I want close in my life, and, for the purpose of keeping this digression in the context of this post, their ethnicity/race or social status had nothing to do with it.
Indeed, they each were white, upper class, well educated, intelligent, etc. They are ostensibly my social and intellectual peers. They just aren't of the right character. And, yes, I am sure that my disaffection with them has cost them nothing, and I wanted not that it cost them anything.
I'm not suggesting those fellows aren't nice people; they may well have been and be; I never let them get close enough to me to find out because they didn't see fit, as matter of course, to accord to me the level of respect I gave them. They just aren't the kind of people whom I want close in my life, and, for the purpose of keeping this digression in the context of this post, their ethnicity/race or social status had nothing to do with it.
Indeed, they each were white, upper class, well educated, intelligent, etc. They are ostensibly my social and intellectual peers. They just aren't of the right character. And, yes, I am sure that my disaffection with them has cost them nothing, and I wanted not that it cost them anything.
- 9:08 to 10:05 in the video -- In this part of the video
- 12:08to 12:19 -- The woman's statement points to the question "what, as whites, must we do earn the trust of non-whites such that when they encounter whites, among the thoughts in the back of their minds isn't, "Does this person view me as their peer, view me as being as "worthy" of their approbation, sympathy or benefit of the doubt as any white person whom they know as well or as little, or their subordinate, even just slightly subordinate?" That thought is the very same trepidation Brandon experienced upon arriving at an HBC.
- 18:13 - 20:30 -- Very eye opening discussion on whites and college scholarships. I was quite surprised by this. I've heard all the "hype" about how it's so hard for whites to get non-loan college financial assistance
- 22:00 -- 23:37 -- Katy: "I feel like you guys are attacking me now." I can tell she's sincere about what she's feeling. I don't know why she feels attacked. Nobody attacked her. I'm no "shrink," but it seems to me that Katy construed as an attack the mere act of having being shown that her preconceptions were mistaken or derived from misunderstanding the reality of the topic. She notes that her view is what it is because of her experiences. I think she's right about that, but I also think she has an obligation to look beyond her own experiences and find out whether her world view is indeed the way the world is. In some cases, it will be, in others it will not.
Interestingly, Katy is smart and very well educated, but she's nonetheless displayed precisely what I call cognitive/intellectual disingenuousness or a lack of intellectual integrity/objectivity. She's hardly the only smart person who has or does, nor will she be the last to do so. Moreover, I agree too that it's hard, and frightening to exercise intellectual integrity; it's also as disillusioning as is Katy's discovering that the "promises" her made may not come true. That's a big blow, for there she is having trusted them to guide her to "greatness," and now she's discovering their instructions/assertions weren't as valid as she and they thought they would/should be. I've had my share of "come to Jesus" moments too, but I have far fewer of them these days than I did in the past. - 24:00 - 24:23 -- Katy notes that because she didn't get the scholarship she hoped to get that she felt excluded because she is white. She's right that nobody should be excluded just for their race or be made to feel that way. White privilege is that thing which leads white folks to think we won't -- not "should not," but rather quite simply "won't" -- be excluded from anything due to the color of their skin. It's what creates surprise, or anger or disillusionment if/when it appears to happen, or when it really does happen. Non-whites, in contrast, are certain that sooner or later they will be denied something because they are not white. (This goes directly to points 14-16 in the OP.)
I give Katy credit. Though the scholarship she wanted didn't just fall into her lap because she asked for it -- the easy thing that could have happened -- she's going to do what it takes to effect her near term goal of going to the school she prefers. That is the right thing for her to do and it's the right attitude. It doesn't blame others for what she did not receive. And that is something that minorities do everyday. - 23:25 -- This segment discusses being colorblind to race.
What I found interesting is that the conversation the young guy had with his parents is similar to one I had with my own parents, and particularly with my father who, he and I both freely admit was a "dyed in the wool" Southern racist for the vast majority of his life. Is the guy's dad a racist as my father was (to some extent still is)? I doubt it, seriously doubt it.
Daddy's 97 and from a Southern "plantation" family that had indentured servants after the "War of Northern Aggression." Yet shockingly there are folks around today who have exactly the same concepts of race that Granddaddy did.
The guy's father says, "I don't want to feel ashamed of being white." I get that. He shouldn't. I don't feel ashamed of being white, white and from an old and well-to-do family, white and (formerly..LOL..too old for that to apply now LOL) good looking, or anything else. It is what it is; I don't need to deny that it is in order to feel comfortable in my own skin. All I need to do is eschew the arbitrariness that comes from my having the white privilege I have.
As I noted earlier, white privilege isn't something to be embarrassed about having. What one does with it is what one may or may not rightly be a source of chagrin. - 31:14 - 31:17 -- The guy asks his parents how they felt about the class session. His mother's reply, "You did good." She's complimentary, but that compliment doesn't directly address how she felt, which is what she was asked about. It definitely doesn't address the substantive content of the class. I'm sure it was a lot for her and her husband to take in and confront head-on; it's just not a thing they ever really had to deal with deal with it they did not. It's not easy to deal with it either.
Blue:
No, that's not about it. What you'e described is not "Martian privilege." That is called lack of motivation on the part of anyone. A person or class' (non-white or white) being unmotivated, uninnovative, poorly or uneducated (this being a function of what they actually learned, not what someone tried to teach them), unskilled, and unwilling to alter those existential traits is going to be unsuccessful and it won't matter what unearned privileges they were born with. If rich "trust fund" kids never apply themselves at anything, they may very well be able to live quite well, maybe even extravagantly, off their trust fund (if it produces enough income), but they will be neither more nor less successful than will far poorer persons who similarly fails to apply themselves. That "trust fund" kids is just "along for the ride," that someone who is/was successful gave them the trust fund merely makes the ride comfortable.
My colleague who bought the car (above) isn't unmotivated by any means. All he is is black, as was the salesman.
OldLady
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320, there is a show on CNN called "United Shades of America" which the couple times I've seen it explores "fringe" groups, or the road less traveled types. Last night I saw the episode on the KKK.
So many of the arguments I hear here were the same ones being voiced by the Grand Poobahs of an Arkansas KKK chapter.
What I'm wondering now is, are there a lot of people who share those beliefs without the hate? Who don't believe there is white privilege or believe in Affirmative Action but have nothing against blacks? Did those folks give the argument to the "New" Klan, which adopted them under the guise of being logical, or did the white supremacists formulate the stances and persuade a lot of unbiased people to think it was reasonable?
I absolutely refuse to believe that all conservatives are racist--I know better. But it is very hard to sort out people's intentions on this subject.
So many of the arguments I hear here were the same ones being voiced by the Grand Poobahs of an Arkansas KKK chapter.
What I'm wondering now is, are there a lot of people who share those beliefs without the hate? Who don't believe there is white privilege or believe in Affirmative Action but have nothing against blacks? Did those folks give the argument to the "New" Klan, which adopted them under the guise of being logical, or did the white supremacists formulate the stances and persuade a lot of unbiased people to think it was reasonable?
I absolutely refuse to believe that all conservatives are racist--I know better. But it is very hard to sort out people's intentions on this subject.
320 Years of History
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- Thread starter
- #239
I did because there was nothing indicating that I should not have: LOL, JK, etc.
I cannot read your mind or anyone else's. I'm very good, however, at applying the conventions and rules of standard English grammar and literary devices in order to comprehend what folks write. There's an element of ambiguity that accompanies one's scratching one's head.
- Sometimes folks do that when they don't understand at all and are trying to; this is usually accompanied by one's asking neutrally worded questions aimed at helping them gain an understanding of some sort.
- Other times they do that when they partially understand, but not completely.
- And on yet other occasions, folks scratch their head when they fully understand and are contemplating the validity and soundness of the implications they've drawn from what they read.
There are, of course, other reasons why folks scratch their head in response to stimuli; however, they aren't responses one makes if one is to engage in a mature discussion. I presumed you were inclined toward an adult conversation, thus my complimentary reply.
320 Years of History
Gold Member
- Thread starter
- #240
I've watched several episodes of that series.
Red:
They are, and I find that disconcerting.
Blue:
I don't know. I know that the difficulty in being able to confidently discern the answer is a huge part of why the race problems we have long faced persist. Further confounding the challenge(s) is that folks will aver that which is in fact true just as resolutely and repeatedly as they will that which is not true.
If you have no way to tell what the day of the week is and you ask me the day of the week, and it's Tuesday, I'm going to say it's Tuesday every time you ask because it is Tuesday and I'm being 100% honest. If I'm of a mind to mislead you into thinking it's Monday, I'll say it's Monday every time you ask because it doesn't serve my malfeasant end to change my answer.
Now if you were to know that I had a history of lying to you, deceiving you, harming you, even though you may ask me the day of the week, you're going to be very skeptical no matter what I say. The only think that will change your mind is my establishing with you a track record of integrity that over time erodes your lack of trust in my responses and stated intents.
It's quite the same factors in play as go race relations. People are willing to take one's word provided one doesn't have a history of being untrustworthy or unjust. Sadly, in the U.S. and colonies (prior to 1776 or 1788 if one prefers), white folks have nearly 500 years worth of being all sorts of despicable things toward minorities. Of course, there were and are exceptions within the white community, sometimes even a lot of them, but the trust lost over hundreds of years and millions of abused people isn't easily regained in 70 years.
Green:
I don't know. The only reformed, if you can call it that, racists I know really well are my father and a few kin on his side of the family. The thing is they don't articulate the sorts of things one hears from the GP of the KKK or from the folks on USMB to whom you alluded. They are okay with affirming that they have white privilege and have benefitted from it. They are of varying views about the idea/prospect of giving it up but they know they have it.
Acquaintances of my Southern kin know they have it too; they like that they do and think they deserve have it. They will tell you unabashedly they know damn well they have white privilege and that they not about to advocate yielding it. That, I think, is something that distinguishes my family and the people whom we invite to be a part of it (i.e., close family friends) from a lot of people.
To a person, not one of us is concerned about whether anyone else likes or agrees with what we think or do. We aren't ashamed of who we are and we aren't prevaricators. We are like that because we each have enough self-respect not to be, and enough respect for others, minorities or not, so they know where they stand with us and we with them. Everyone knows where the other stands and nobody wastes their time "winin' pinin' and wishin' all because they don't know 'this or that' about Billy Joe." I wish more folks were like that; we might then be able to answer your "blue" question.
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