The word "period"

[mudwhistle]

What exactly does it mean when obama said " if you like your health plan, you can keep it, period" "if you like your doctor, you can keep him, period"

no "ifs", no conditions, no "if it isn't changed"

You can keep it, PERIOD!

Was that a lie? Yes, and he knew it was when he said it. He lied to the american people in order to pass a bill that a majority of americans did not want.

Grounds for impeachment????????

Yes it was a lie. A bald faced lie. A big lie.

No, you can't be impeached for lying during a campaign. Otherwise, no one would ever make it past Inauguration Day without immediately being impeached.

You can be impeached for fraud.

If your lie leads people to do something (vote for your lying ass) and it causes them harm (losing health insurance, loss of life or limb, bankruptcy, etc.) then he can be impeached for the crime of fraud. If the right owned both houses they would be drawing up articles of impeachment as we speak.

 

[mudwhistle]

Let's set the framework for this debate. Were Bush's lies that got us into Iraq impeachable offenses?

How about not. What does Bush have to do with this discussion?

He was president. The topic is, what are impeachable offenses for presidents. Plus I get to make monkeys out of you two-faced phonies.

Name the crime.

Clinton was impeached on several charges. Perjury, obstruction of justice, etc. Those are specific charges. You can't impeach somebody just because he couldn't catch Saddam with the goods.

 

[BlindBoo]

A lie is defined thusly:

If you know what you're saying is untrue that is a lie.


Explain how what Bush said could be verified before we entered Iraq.

However, what Obama said was known to be a lie by everyone in the White House.

You proved the point. Bush and his administration said with certainty that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat.

Since, as you admit, they cannot have known that to be true, to state it as fact constitutes a lie.

Sorry, not knowing doesn't make it a lie.

BTW, you totally ignored what was found in Iraq. Captured documents showed, and this was testified before Congress, that Iraq was a more dangerous place than they had thought before we invaded. We found evidence of binary delivery systems and we found tons of yellow cake uranium waiting to be refined. If Obama had been president that would have been enough for you to defend him to the ends of the Earth.

As if that Yellow Cake was being hidden from the world.

 

[NYcarbineer]

A lie is defined thusly:

If you know what you're saying is untrue that is a lie.


Explain how what Bush said could be verified before we entered Iraq.

However, what Obama said was known to be a lie by everyone in the White House.

You proved the point. Bush and his administration said with certainty that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat.

Since, as you admit, they cannot have known that to be true, to state it as fact constitutes a lie.

Wrong.

If you state something as fact based on information offered to you giving you reason to state it as fact, you did not lie.

You were misinformed.

Bush did not have that.

 

[mudwhistle]

You proved the point. Bush and his administration said with certainty that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat.

Since, as you admit, they cannot have known that to be true, to state it as fact constitutes a lie.

Sorry, not knowing doesn't make it a lie.

BTW, you totally ignored what was found in Iraq. Captured documents showed, and this was testified before Congress, that Iraq was a more dangerous place than they had thought before we invaded. We found evidence of binary delivery systems and we found tons of yellow cake uranium waiting to be refined. If Obama had been president that would have been enough for you to defend him to the ends of the Earth.

As if that Yellow Cake was being hidden from the world.

Uh....yes....it was.

It was found hidden in a vault in Iraq. The UN didn't find it during their inspections. We did.

What's your point....other than you can't accept anything as important unless the media says it's important?

 

[Flopper]

It has already been shown that Obama continued with the line AFTER the administration knew that some people would lose their plan.
Please stop covering for him.

When Obama said you can keep your plan, he was speaking for the government, not the insurance companies. There is nothing in the Affordable Care Act that forces people to give up their health plans. The president can't speak for what the insurance companies may or may not do.

Whether the insurance companies choose to cancel and reissue the plans with the required changes or revise the current plans, the end result is same.

Except there is something that forces insurance companies to drop the plans, and it was put in intentionally because, without it, no one would have bought the Obamacare plans.

When the bill was in Senate, I think most people assumed the grandfather clause would allow existing plans to be grandfathered in with only new plans reflecting the increased benefits. This would allowed a gradual phase-in of the changes. However, the HHS wrote the regulation based on an interpretation of the law and comments from group insurers. The result was most plans could not be grandfathered in. Health insurer in the individual market elected to cancel and reissue the plans rather than update them. I have no idea what their reasons for doing so were. In some states, the insurance commission requested they do so. However some issuers stated there were operations problems in just updating the plan.

I think it's questionable as what Obama actually knew when he made the two statements. Later when it became clear that a number of insurance companies would be cancelling and reissuing plans instead of updating them, he could have informed the public of this. However, what would be the point in doing so? Whichever way the insurance companies handled the situation, the outcome would have been same. Every one that had coverage would be able to keep their coverage in a plan with additional benefits..

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You proved the point. Bush and his administration said with certainty that Iraq had WMD's that were an imminent threat.

Since, as you admit, they cannot have known that to be true, to state it as fact constitutes a lie.

Wrong.

If you state something as fact based on information offered to you giving you reason to state it as fact, you did not lie.

You were misinformed.

Bush did not have that.

^ Obama lied, therefore Bush

 

[Againsheila]

What exactly does it mean when obama said " if you like your health plan, you can keep it, period" "if you like your doctor, you can keep him, period"

no "ifs", no conditions, no "if it isn't changed"

You can keep it, PERIOD!

Was that a lie? Yes, and he knew it was when he said it. He lied to the american people in order to pass a bill that a majority of americans did not want.

Grounds for impeachment????????

Let's set the framework for this debate. Were Bush's lies that got us into Iraq impeachable offenses?

Yes!

 

[BlindBoo]

Sorry, not knowing doesn't make it a lie.

BTW, you totally ignored what was found in Iraq. Captured documents showed, and this was testified before Congress, that Iraq was a more dangerous place than they had thought before we invaded. We found evidence of binary delivery systems and we found tons of yellow cake uranium waiting to be refined. If Obama had been president that would have been enough for you to defend him to the ends of the Earth.

As if that Yellow Cake was being hidden from the world.

Uh....yes....it was.

It was found hidden in a vault in Iraq. The UN didn't find it during their inspections. We did.

What's your point....other than you can't accept anything as important unless the media says it's important?

The yellowcake removed from Iraq in 2008 was material that had long since been identified, documented, and stored in sealed containers under the supervision of U.N. inspectors. It was not a "secret" cache that was recently "discovered" by the U.S, and the yellowcake had not been purchased by Iraq in the years immediately preceding the 2003 invasion. The uranium was the remnants of decades-old nuclear reactor projects that had put out of commission many years earlier: One reactor at Al Tuwaitha was bombed by Israel in 1981, and another was bombed and disabled during Operation Desert Storm in 1991. Moreover, the fact that the yellowcake had been in Iraq since before the 1991 Gulf War......

snopes.com: Yellowcake Uranium Removed from Iraq

Next!

 

[TemplarKormac]

Let's set the framework for this debate. Were Bush's lies that got us into Iraq impeachable offenses?

How about not. What does Bush have to do with this discussion?

He was president. The topic is, what are impeachable offenses for presidents. Plus I get to make monkeys out of you two-faced phonies.

Emphasis on 'was' president. Hence he cannot be impeached now since he is not president. Perhaps you should refrain from engaging people in wild goose chases.

 

[hjmick]

When Obama said you can keep your plan, he was speaking for the government, not the insurance companies. There is nothing in the Affordable Care Act that forces people to give up their health plans. The president can't speak for what the insurance companies may or may not do.

Whether the insurance companies choose to cancel and reissue the plans with the required changes or revise the current plans, the end result is same.

Except there is something that forces insurance companies to drop the plans, and it was put in intentionally because, without it, no one would have bought the Obamacare plans.

When the bill was in Senate, I think most people assumed the grandfather clause would allow existing plans to be grandfathered in with only new plans reflecting the increased benefits. This would allowed a gradual phase-in of the changes. However, the HHS wrote the regulation based on an interpretation of the law and comments from group insurers. The result was most plans could not be grandfathered in. Health insurer in the individual market elected to cancel and reissue the plans rather than update them. I have no idea what their reasons for doing so were. In some states, the insurance commission requested they do so. However some issuers stated there were operations problems in just updating the plan.

I think it's questionable as what Obama actually knew when he made the two statements. Later when it became clear that a number of insurance companies would be cancelling and reissuing plans instead of updating them, he could have informed the public of this. However, what would be the point in doing so? Whichever way the insurance companies handled the situation, the outcome would have been same. Every one that had coverage would be able to keep their coverage in a plan with additional benefits..

That's all good and well, Flopper, as it applies to what he said prior to his signing the bill in to law. But by the time the bill reached his desk the clause that has caused so much dismay and controversy with regard to keeping your plan was there. If he didn't know about it, what the hell is he doing signing the damn thing? Furthermore, he continued to proclaim that people who were happy with their plan, with their doctor, they would be able to keep them. No caveats, no exceptions. It was a line he continued to use through out 2012 and as recently as Sept. 26 of this year. You will not be able to convince me that, more than three years after signing that POS he didn't know...

Because if he didn't know three years in, he's not as smart as so many claim he is... Or he doesn't have a ******* clue as to what going on around him... Or he was flat out lying to the American people...

No matter how you slice it, it stinks.

We found 10 instances after the law was signed when Obama made the pledge again.

In remarks in Portland, Maine, on April 1, 2010, Obama said that "if Americans like their doctor, they will keep their doctor. And if you like your insurance plan, you will keep it. No one will be able to take that away from you. It hasn’t happened yet. It won’t happen in the future."

After the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services issued regulations for the law on June 14, 2010, HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius blogged: "The bottom line is that under the Affordable Care Act, if you like your doctor and plan, you can keep them."

Obama then repeated the remarks during several campaign events in 2012, as well as at the first presidential debate in Denver on Oct. 3, 2012: "If you've got health insurance, it doesn't mean a government takeover. You keep your own insurance. You keep your own doctor. But it does say insurance companies can't jerk you around."

Finally, as recently as a few weeks ago, Obama was playing down the impact.

"Now, let’s start with the fact that even before the Affordable Care Act fully takes effect, about 85 percent of Americans already have health insurance -– either through their job, or through Medicare, or through the individual market," he said in a speech in Largo, Md., on Sept. 26. "So if you’re one of these folks, it’s reasonable that you might worry whether health care reform is going to create changes that are a problem for you -- especially when you’re bombarded with all sorts of fear-mongering. So the first thing you need to know is this: If you already have health care, you don’t have to do anything."

Overall, we didn’t find one instance in which Obama offered a caveat that it only applies to plans that hadn’t changed after the law’s passage.


Politifact; Pants on Fire: Barack Obama says that what he'd said was you could keep your plan 'if it hasn’t changed since the law passed'

 

[Rozman]

What exactly does it mean when obama said " if you like your health plan, you can keep it, period" "if you like your doctor, you can keep him, period"

TK aptly illustrates the answer to that in this post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/8104809-post673.html

yeah, I know this has already been covered, but I am looking for one dem/lib who is honest enough to admit that obama lied. probably like looking for rubies in my garden.

good luck with that...

 

[Ame®icano]

It was an extraordinarily bold and foolish pledge. However, was it lie? A broken promise is only a lie when the person knows he can not fulfill the promise. When this pledge was made in 2009, it was before the law was passed and the bill was changing daily. When his second statement was made after the law was passed the regulations that governed grandfathering older plans had not been written. Most insurance companies and probably Obama assumed the older plans would be grandfather in, but the regulators did not believe they could meet the requirements of the law and other legislation if they allowed the old plans to stand as is. This forced many companies to cancel and reissue plans due to either state laws or internal problems.

As I said, I think Obama was foolish to make such bold statements because he could not control everything that went into the law or the regulations that came out of it.

BTW If we impeached every president that broke campaign promises, we would have impeached them all.

It has already been shown that Obama continued with the line AFTER the administration knew that some people would lose their plan.
Please stop covering for him.

When Obama said you can keep your plan, he was speaking for the government, not the insurance companies. There is nothing in the Affordable Care Act that forces people to give up their health plans. The president can't speak for what the insurance companies may or may not do.

Whether the insurance companies choose to cancel and reissue the plans with the required changes or revise the current plans, the end result is same.

Insurance companies were perfectly happy with plans they were offering.
Please explain, why would they "choose" to change plans at all?

 

[koshergrl]

When Obama, or any other progressive douchnozzle, makes a declarative sentence, I know they are willfully and intentionally lying.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Let's set the framework for this debate. Were Bush's lies that got us into Iraq impeachable offenses?

Let's put this in perspective, when Clinton lied under oath, was that an impeachable offense?

Yes it was as the House demonstrated. However he was not convicted or removed from office by the Senate.

Now, was President Obama under oath when he made that claim?

That doesn't matter either. Impeachment is an up/ down vote in the House. They could impeach him tomorrow if they so chose.

It does not ******* matter if he was under oath or not, does it? He lied, and you don't care because he is black. That makes you a racist scumbag.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Let's set the framework for this debate. Were Bush's lies that got us into Iraq impeachable offenses?

How about not. What does Bush have to do with this discussion?

He was president. The topic is, what are impeachable offenses for presidents. Plus I get to make monkeys out of you two-faced phonies.

Did you get back to me about the fake debate you created about the only way to impeach the president is if he commits a crime? Or did you give up on this monkey?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What exactly does it mean when obama said " if you like your health plan, you can keep it, period" "if you like your doctor, you can keep him, period"

no "ifs", no conditions, no "if it isn't changed"

You can keep it, PERIOD!

Was that a lie? Yes, and he knew it was when he said it. He lied to the american people in order to pass a bill that a majority of americans did not want.

Grounds for impeachment????????

Yes it was a lie. A bald faced lie. A big lie.

No, you can't be impeached for lying during a campaign. Otherwise, no one would ever make it past Inauguration Day without immediately being impeached.

Unless you are trying to say he was campaigning this year I don't see the point you are trying to make.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When Obama said you can keep your plan, he was speaking for the government, not the insurance companies. There is nothing in the Affordable Care Act that forces people to give up their health plans. The president can't speak for what the insurance companies may or may not do.

Whether the insurance companies choose to cancel and reissue the plans with the required changes or revise the current plans, the end result is same.

Except there is something that forces insurance companies to drop the plans, and it was put in intentionally because, without it, no one would have bought the Obamacare plans.

When the bill was in Senate, I think most people assumed the grandfather clause would allow existing plans to be grandfathered in with only new plans reflecting the increased benefits. This would allowed a gradual phase-in of the changes. However, the HHS wrote the regulation based on an interpretation of the law and comments from group insurers. The result was most plans could not be grandfathered in. Health insurer in the individual market elected to cancel and reissue the plans rather than update them. I have no idea what their reasons for doing so were. In some states, the insurance commission requested they do so. However some issuers stated there were operations problems in just updating the plan.

I think it's questionable as what Obama actually knew when he made the two statements. Later when it became clear that a number of insurance companies would be cancelling and reissuing plans instead of updating them, he could have informed the public of this. However, what would be the point in doing so? Whichever way the insurance companies handled the situation, the outcome would have been same. Every one that had coverage would be able to keep their coverage in a plan with additional benefits..

When the bill was in the Senate everybody knew that the phrase "The Secretary shall" meant that the law wasn't the final word. I provided a link to a GPO study, published in the Federal Register by the White House, that the Obamacare regulations written by "The Secretary" would end up kicking everyone in the country off their plans eventually.

If you don't like that, take it up with the lying ***** in the White House, especially Obama. If you prefer to stick your ignorant head up Obama's ass and defend him, stop trying to convince me I am stupid and ignorant for dealing with the screwed up world you support.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-06-17/pdf/2010-14488.pdf

Look at that, actual facts. Care to point out how Obama is lying about the plans not being grandfathered?

Defend him again and I will mock you like the racist scumbag you are for refusing to call a black man a liar for no other reason that that he is black.

 

[koshergrl]

This goes with the criminal left's insistence that the only time crimes are committed are IF a person is convicted of them.

In this instance, a lie hasn't been told UNLESS the prez was sworn in first.

Though of course, that doesn't wash, either...when the prez is caught perjuring himself, they find reasons why that is okay as well.

It's a criminal mentality. This is what they do. They are good progressive supporters.

 

[mudwhistle]

When Obama said you can keep your plan, he was speaking for the government, not the insurance companies. There is nothing in the Affordable Care Act that forces people to give up their health plans. The president can't speak for what the insurance companies may or may not do.

Whether the insurance companies choose to cancel and reissue the plans with the required changes or revise the current plans, the end result is same.

Except there is something that forces insurance companies to drop the plans, and it was put in intentionally because, without it, no one would have bought the Obamacare plans.

When the bill was in Senate, I think most people assumed the grandfather clause would allow existing plans to be grandfathered in with only new plans reflecting the increased benefits. This would allowed a gradual phase-in of the changes. However, the HHS wrote the regulation based on an interpretation of the law and comments from group insurers. The result was most plans could not be grandfathered in. Health insurer in the individual market elected to cancel and reissue the plans rather than update them. I have no idea what their reasons for doing so were. In some states, the insurance commission requested they do so. However some issuers stated there were operations problems in just updating the plan.

I think it's questionable as what Obama actually knew when he made the two statements. Later when it became clear that a number of insurance companies would be cancelling and reissuing plans instead of updating them, he could have informed the public of this. However, what would be the point in doing so? Whichever way the insurance companies handled the situation, the outcome would have been same. Every one that had coverage would be able to keep their coverage in a plan with additional benefits..

Problem being that internal documents back in 2010 show this isn't how it happened. They predicted as much as 51% of group plans would lose their insurance coverage due to the changing of the law.

June 12, 2010

Internal administration documents reveal that up to 51% of employers may have to relinquish their current health care coverage because of ObamaCare.

Small firms will be even likelier to lose existing plans.

The “midrange estimate is that 66% of small employer plans and 45% of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfathered status by the end of 2013,” according to the document.

In the worst-case scenario, 69% of employers — 80% of smaller firms — would lose that status, exposing them to far more provisions under the new health law.

The 83-page document, a joint project of the departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and the IRS, examines the effects that ObamaCare’s regulations would have on existing, or “grandfathered,” employer-based health care plans.​

It was actually in the law that this would happen, way back on page 34,000 or thereabouts. The law was originally around 2000 pages and when all was said and done it grew to more than 10 times that. A stack of new regulations was released last December 8 feet thick.

Administration Study: 51% Of Employers May Lose Their Health Coverage Plans Under Obamacare | Say Anything