The value of slavery?

[TNHarley]

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

 

[Asclepias]

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

 

[TNHarley]

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

They wont owe anything?

 

[Taz]

The value of slavery? it's called the minimum wage.

 

[Asclepias]

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

They wont owe anything?

No one owes anything. Its the debt of the US.

 

[Taz]

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

They wont owe anything?

No one owes anything. Its the debt of the US.

That's us, fool.

 

[TNHarley]

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

They wont owe anything?

No one owes anything. Its the debt of the US.

So will they have to pay their fair share like everyone else?

 

[Asclepias]

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

What about people that dont have jobs and get free shit from everyone else for existing? Do they have to pay?

I think you should have the intellect necessary to answer your own question on that one.

They wont owe anything?

No one owes anything. Its the debt of the US.

So will they have to pay their fair share like everyone else?

I dont think you have a grasp on the current tax laws. Please educate yourself and then get back to me on the answer.

 

[gallantwarrior]

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Truth is, reparations were already provided for freed slaves immediately following the conclusion of the Civil War. A large swath of real estate was confiscated from Southern landowners and earmarked for distribution to any freed slave who applied for a designated portion thereof. The apportioned land, and subsequent mule, was intended for the freed slave to establish himself and provide for his family. So, the opportunity for economic stability was available. Since the original freed slaves were already provided opportunity to claim some portion of real property "provided" by those assumed to have owned slaves, there is no need to pay descendants of slaves any amount of money, regardless of source.

"Today, we commonly use the phrase "40 acres and a mule," but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here. Section one bears repeating in full: "The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States."

Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves: " … on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such."

Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land: " … each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title."

With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — "a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John's River in Florida, including Georgia's Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast," as Barton Myers reports — would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves. The extent of this Order and its larger implications are mind-boggling, actually."
https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

 

[Asclepias]

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

 

[gallantwarrior]

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. [A debt is paid by those who owe it. My neighbor is not responsible to pay my mortgage or car payment. Therefore, it is disingenuous to demand that any who did not participate in owning or trading slaves in this country be forced to pay for that activity. Establishing a fund financed by those who did own or trade slaves is the only fair and equitable way to acquire funds to distribute to qualified recipients.] Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. [we apparently agree on this point.] The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later. [Interesting point, and I agree that the Civil War was about cession. There are factions who will argue that the division between the Southern states and the Northern was primarily based upon the North wishing to abolish slavery and the South maintaining their right to determine the status of slavery themselves. That argument goes either way, depending on who you want to believe.]

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations. [Then the proper action would be to file a class action suit: Plaintiff(s): all blacks qualified as defined vs. Defendant: all US taxpayers.]

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery. [I'd be most interested to know just how you think all the subsequent waves of immigrants, or Native Americans, have specifically benefited from black slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in. [I wasn't apologizing, I was telling you that I won't apologize because I, and my ancestors, have done nothing to apologize for. That being said, my descendants and I owe you and your descents nothing.]

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. [A debt is paid by those who owe it. My neighbor is not responsible to pay my mortgage or car payment. Therefore, it is disingenuous to demand that any who did not participate in owning or trading slaves in this country be forced to pay for that activity. Establishing a fund financed by those who did own or trade slaves is the only fair and equitable way to acquire funds to distribute to qualified recipients.] Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. [we apparently agree on this point.] The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later. [Interesting point, and I agree that the Civil War was about cession. There are factions who will argue that the division between the Southern states and the Northern was primarily based upon the North wishing to abolish slavery and the South maintaining their right to determine the status of slavery themselves. That argument goes either way, depending on who you want to believe.]

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations. [Then the proper action would be to file a class action suit: Plaintiff(s): all blacks qualified as defined vs. Defendant: all US taxpayers.]

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery. [I'd be most interested to know just how you think all the subsequent waves of immigrants, or Native Americans, have specifically benefited from black slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in. [I wasn't apologizing, I was telling you that I won't apologize because I, and my ancestors, have done nothing to apologize for. That being said, my descendants and I owe you and your descents nothing.]

Given the history and success of many government and charitable programs that were intended to help improve black economic advancement, to improve black communities and opportunities, I seriously doubt any additional free money in the form of reparations would be used for anything more than more drugs, booze, and other frivolous stupidity by the greater proportion of recipients. Those who really want to can break free and make more of themselves, regardless of perceived handicaps. Consider your black self as a modern day adventurer exploiting new, unexplored frontiers. Break you own chains, brother if no one else will.

 

[Coyote]

If tax payers pay...then payment is made by all, regardless of race.

 

[Coyote]

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

 

[Asclepias]

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. [A debt is paid by those who owe it. My neighbor is not responsible to pay my mortgage or car payment. Therefore, it is disingenuous to demand that any who did not participate in owning or trading slaves in this country be forced to pay for that activity. Establishing a fund financed by those who did own or trade slaves is the only fair and equitable way to acquire funds to distribute to qualified recipients.] Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. [we apparently agree on this point.] The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later. [Interesting point, and I agree that the Civil War was about cession. There are factions who will argue that the division between the Southern states and the Northern was primarily based upon the North wishing to abolish slavery and the South maintaining their right to determine the status of slavery themselves. That argument goes either way, depending on who you want to believe.]

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations. [Then the proper action would be to file a class action suit: Plaintiff(s): all blacks qualified as defined vs. Defendant: all US taxpayers.]

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery. [I'd be most interested to know just how you think all the subsequent waves of immigrants, or Native Americans, have specifically benefited from black slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in. [I wasn't apologizing, I was telling you that I won't apologize because I, and my ancestors, have done nothing to apologize for. That being said, my descendants and I owe you and your descents nothing.]

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. [A debt is paid by those who owe it. My neighbor is not responsible to pay my mortgage or car payment. Therefore, it is disingenuous to demand that any who did not participate in owning or trading slaves in this country be forced to pay for that activity. Establishing a fund financed by those who did own or trade slaves is the only fair and equitable way to acquire funds to distribute to qualified recipients.] Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. [we apparently agree on this point.] The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later. [Interesting point, and I agree that the Civil War was about cession. There are factions who will argue that the division between the Southern states and the Northern was primarily based upon the North wishing to abolish slavery and the South maintaining their right to determine the status of slavery themselves. That argument goes either way, depending on who you want to believe.]

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations. [Then the proper action would be to file a class action suit: Plaintiff(s): all blacks qualified as defined vs. Defendant: all US taxpayers.]

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery. [I'd be most interested to know just how you think all the subsequent waves of immigrants, or Native Americans, have specifically benefited from black slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in. [I wasn't apologizing, I was telling you that I won't apologize because I, and my ancestors, have done nothing to apologize for. That being said, my descendants and I owe you and your descents nothing.]

Given the history and success of many government and charitable programs that were intended to help improve black economic advancement, to improve black communities and opportunities, I seriously doubt any additional free money in the form of reparations would be used for anything more than more drugs, booze, and other frivolous stupidity by the greater proportion of recipients. Those who really want to can break free and make more of themselves, regardless of perceived handicaps. Consider your black self as a modern day adventurer exploiting new, unexplored frontiers. Break you own chains, brother if no one else will.

Since the US owes the debt then it will be paid by whoever currently pays taxes. Your analogy is an example in false logic. The US is not your neighbor. The only way that works is if I said Canada owed reparations to US Blacks.

I know you werent apologizing. I was just saying I would disregard it if you did. Correct. The US owes the debt. Not you specifically.

I'm not concerned with what you doubt. I'm not even concerned if you agree. My point is that the US owes the debt and therefore should pay. This probably wont happen for any and all of the excuses presented on this thread but no one will ever convince me to agree with such silly excuses.

 

[Asclepias]

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

 

[miketx]

What would you estimate the value of slavery in the US to have been?
Specifically, if reparations were to be made for slavery, how much would you estimate the value of lost wages plus interest to be? Please be specific. What pay scale would you propose be used, and what amount of interest?
Who would you propose be paid reparations for slavery in the US?
And, who would you propose pay into the fund to be dispersed to those deemed recipients of said reparations?

No one today was a slave. To hell with them.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

 

[Asclepias]

What would you estimate the value of slavery in the US to have been?
Specifically, if reparations were to be made for slavery, how much would you estimate the value of lost wages plus interest to be? Please be specific. What pay scale would you propose be used, and what amount of interest?
Who would you propose be paid reparations for slavery in the US?
And, who would you propose pay into the fund to be dispersed to those deemed recipients of said reparations?

No one today was a slave. To hell with them.

Your reading comprehension tests must have all been disasters? This is about the descendants of the enslaved.

 

[miketx]

What would you estimate the value of slavery in the US to have been?
Specifically, if reparations were to be made for slavery, how much would you estimate the value of lost wages plus interest to be? Please be specific. What pay scale would you propose be used, and what amount of interest?
Who would you propose be paid reparations for slavery in the US?
And, who would you propose pay into the fund to be dispersed to those deemed recipients of said reparations?

No one today was a slave. To hell with them.

Your reading comprehension tests must have all been disasters? This is about the descendants of the enslaved.

To hell with them too. We don't owe you anything.