The value of slavery?

[Asclepias]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

That’s gonna be a trick.

Whats gonna be a trick?

The White trash that owned slaves did not keep records like the uber educated and organized Germans.

Typically it wasnt white trash that owned slaves. They couldnt afford it. It was wealthy white men that kept records.

 

[Indeependent]

Just like most Black areas today with all of their freedoms going to waste.
I’m not denying slavery; I’m denying the revisionist view of it lying only on all White people and asking why they haven’t taken advantage of the opportunity to catch up.

Whites were totally in control of this country when chattel slavery was practiced.
Dont ask why. Just understand if you had 3 centuries of white only AA then we only need half that time to surpass you if given Black only AA.

Are you inebriated?
Seriously, WTF are you babbling about?
Until the late 90s I couldn’t wear a yalmulke on Wall Street and get a job.
It’s 2018.

I bet you could get a job easier than a Black guy even if you wore a yarmulke.

Probably; that’s racist and assumptions based on Jews being productive and living in thriving neighborhoods.

Nope. Its just based on present day Jews being white europeans and benefiting from white AA.

Do you know why so many Jews own businesses?
No one would hire us for 50 years.

Do you see Jewish areas in Flatbush, Boro Park, Williamsburg and Nassau County?
We don’t live for ourselves, we live for our children.

 

[Indeependent]

My restitution to Blacks is my tax dollars that I want to have police provide a safe school and home environment and a neighborhood I can go to after work and shop.
A neighborhood that will produce well educated adults and add to Americans greatness.

That does nothing for the lost interest and immediate benefit to Black wealth. its like trying to water the Sahara desert with a drop of spit.

You’ve had 50 years.

You've had 300 years of white only AA. We only need half that and again those 50 years dont count since it was never Black only.

You are a crybaby racist.
You could have developed the areas you live in and people would run to shop.

 

[Asclepias]

Whites were totally in control of this country when chattel slavery was practiced.
Dont ask why. Just understand if you had 3 centuries of white only AA then we only need half that time to surpass you if given Black only AA.

Are you inebriated?
Seriously, WTF are you babbling about?
Until the late 90s I couldn’t wear a yalmulke on Wall Street and get a job.
It’s 2018.

I bet you could get a job easier than a Black guy even if you wore a yarmulke.

Probably; that’s racist and assumptions based on Jews being productive and living in thriving neighborhoods.

Nope. Its just based on present day Jews being white europeans and benefiting from white AA.

Do you know why so many Jews own businesses?
No one would hire us for 50 years.

Do you see Jewish areas in Flatbush, Boro Park, Williamsburg and Nassau County?
We don’t live for ourselves, we live for our children.

Of course I do. You were helped When Blacks had their own businesses whites like you burned them to the ground.

 

[Indeependent]

Jews couldn’t get into medical school and so was born Einstein Medical School.

 

[Indeependent]

Are you inebriated?
Seriously, WTF are you babbling about?
Until the late 90s I couldn’t wear a yalmulke on Wall Street and get a job.
It’s 2018.

I bet you could get a job easier than a Black guy even if you wore a yarmulke.

Probably; that’s racist and assumptions based on Jews being productive and living in thriving neighborhoods.

Nope. Its just based on present day Jews being white europeans and benefiting from white AA.

Do you know why so many Jews own businesses?
No one would hire us for 50 years.

Do you see Jewish areas in Flatbush, Boro Park, Williamsburg and Nassau County?
We don’t live for ourselves, we live for our children.

Of course I do. You were helped When Blacks had their own businesses whites like you burned them to the ground.

How many Black businesses have been burnt to the ground in NYC since 1967?

 

[Asclepias]

My restitution to Blacks is my tax dollars that I want to have police provide a safe school and home environment and a neighborhood I can go to after work and shop.
A neighborhood that will produce well educated adults and add to Americans greatness.

That does nothing for the lost interest and immediate benefit to Black wealth. its like trying to water the Sahara desert with a drop of spit.

You’ve had 50 years.

You've had 300 years of white only AA. We only need half that and again those 50 years dont count since it was never Black only.

You are a crybaby racist.
You could have developed the areas you live in and people would run to shop.

We did develop our areas. Whites burned them to the ground when they became more affluent than white areas. Thats how I know we only need half the time with Black only AA to surpass you whites.

 

[Indeependent]

I’m getting bored.
I’ll be back later to read more bullshit.

 

[Asclepias]

I’m getting bored.
I’ll be back later to read more bullshit.

Youre getting owned.

Take some time off and come back with a better argument.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Because the Jew were citizens, they were highly educated and contributed to every facet of society at every level and their property, assets and possessions were stolen.

That’s why they received payment.

So if they received payment already why would their descendants get anything? What kind of idiot makes that comparison with the enslaved that never got their wages?

Their descendents are not getting anything...descendents should not.

Why should the descendants not get anything? It was owed to the survivors who were unable to pass it on to their descendants.

Will you inherit the monies your parents paid into Social Security if your parents never lived long enough to collect what they paid into that fund? Why not? That was money earned by your parents and contributed to a fund intended for their "retirement". Why should the descendants of those contributors not inherit the money left unpaid?

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

 

[Asclepias]

So if they received payment already why would their descendants get anything? What kind of idiot makes that comparison with the enslaved that never got their wages?

Their descendents are not getting anything...descendents should not.

Why should the descendants not get anything? It was owed to the survivors who were unable to pass it on to their descendants.

Will you inherit the monies your parents paid into Social Security if your parents never lived long enough to collect what they paid into that fund? Why not? That was money earned by your parents and contributed to a fund intended for their "retirement". Why should the descendants of those contributors not inherit the money left unpaid?

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

 

[gallantwarrior]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

 

[Asclepias]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Their descendents are not getting anything...descendents should not.

Why should the descendants not get anything? It was owed to the survivors who were unable to pass it on to their descendants.

Will you inherit the monies your parents paid into Social Security if your parents never lived long enough to collect what they paid into that fund? Why not? That was money earned by your parents and contributed to a fund intended for their "retirement". Why should the descendants of those contributors not inherit the money left unpaid?

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

I hadn't had time to get your definition of who, but have responded since then. I started this thread to discuss the who should pay, who should get, and how much. You have now identified who should pay: taxpayers; who should receive: all who identify and can prove being of slave-descended stock. "In the billions" may be true, but how would you derive the amount paid to each individual? What basis would you use to calculate that amount?

 

[Asclepias]

Why should the descendants not get anything? It was owed to the survivors who were unable to pass it on to their descendants.

Will you inherit the monies your parents paid into Social Security if your parents never lived long enough to collect what they paid into that fund? Why not? That was money earned by your parents and contributed to a fund intended for their "retirement". Why should the descendants of those contributors not inherit the money left unpaid?

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

I hadn't had time to get your definition of who, but have responded since then. I started this thread to discuss the who should pay, who should get, and how much. You have now identified who should pay: taxpayers; who should receive: all who identify and can prove being of slave-descended stock. "In the billions" may be true, but how would you derive the amount paid to each individual? What basis would you use to calculate that amount?

I said in the trillions. I would leave those decisions on "how much" etc up to the Black people that are currently fighting for reparations as they have all the data. I'm good with whatever they decide. The main point is that my people could then move on instead of wasting time trying to convince whites to like them. Once empowered economically they could sink or swim on their own.

 

[gallantwarrior]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

 

[Asclepias]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

 

[TNHarley]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Will you inherit the monies your parents paid into Social Security if your parents never lived long enough to collect what they paid into that fund? Why not? That was money earned by your parents and contributed to a fund intended for their "retirement". Why should the descendants of those contributors not inherit the money left unpaid?

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

I hadn't had time to get your definition of who, but have responded since then. I started this thread to discuss the who should pay, who should get, and how much. You have now identified who should pay: taxpayers; who should receive: all who identify and can prove being of slave-descended stock. "In the billions" may be true, but how would you derive the amount paid to each individual? What basis would you use to calculate that amount?

I said in the trillions. I would leave those decisions on "how much" etc up to the Black people that are currently fighting for reparations as they have all the data. I'm good with whatever they decide. The main point is that my people could then move on instead of wasting time trying to convince whites to like them. Once empowered economically they could sink or swim on their own.

Sorry...trillions. Dude, I thought you were at the forefront of this fight, you are pretty passionate.
Now you bring up a new facet of your proposal. How would the repayment of reparations empower the black community to move on and change their communities when AA (Affirmative Action), and other programs have not?

 

[Asclepias]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.