The Ultimate Tool for Redemption

[thebrucebeat]

Like Abram's culture? Surrounded by idolatry. Dad being an idol manufacturer. That kind of inevitable?
Are you afraid, not very bright and easily influenced, or are you the exception?

Sorry.
Taking a thousands of years old myth as the exception isn't documentation.
Look around you today and find the cultural exception. You will be hard pressed to do so.
Afraid? Sure. But not why you might imagine.
Bright? Incorrigibly.
Easily influenced? Not like when I was younger.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

You're still not getting this. The fact that he offered us a potential way out of punishment does -not- change anything that I've said.

An infallible and all-powerful creator -knew- he was creating creatures that would inevitably sin and -could have- built them without that capacity.

He did not. He -intentionally- designed a species that wouldn't be able to avoid sin, and then decided later down the line that he'd offer them a way out, but that they had to guess without conclusive proof that the guy they were praying to was the correct way out.

He designed us for failure, is willing to punish us for that failure, and demands that we guess correctly who his kid is to avoid that punishment. Also, that punishment is ETERNAL TORTURE!

How is that love or justice?

He designed a species of billions of sentient beings that he -knew- he would ultimately end up subjecting to eternal torture. Whether he intended it mostly for Satan or not doesn't change the fact that

Also, on a side note, what of those people who had to exist between Genesis and Jesus? Those people who didn't have the Christ way out, and had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their inevitable sins? Did God take a break from love and justice during that period?

Next, when you say he didn't hold Adam or Eve accountable for their sin, HOLY SHIT WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

He kicked them out of the garden of Eden and cursed the Earth. That wasn't meant to be punishment? Was that just God's version of punching a wall to vent his frustration?

I'm not saying that he "can't wait for me to screw up so he can devour me". I'm saying he designed me knowing I would screw up from the get-go, sent me out into the cursed Earth that Adam and Eve's sin gained us even before I'd had a chance to sin, and he's down to punish me for the failures that he INTENTIONALLY BUILT INTO ME!

Again, a human living by the example of your God would give birth to a child, have an eye removed from that child, then pick a person who that child would have to apologize to for being half blind. IF the child didn't figure out who to say sorry to, the Godly parent would torture that child as horribly and for as long as was possible, and with ultimate finality (only death, no chance for future redemption). That would be the just act of a loving parent, assuming that your God is just and loving.

When God created man 2 things existed, good, and evil. He could have created us to do His will only. If He had, you'd be here screaming foul because He didn't let you decide for yourself. He stole your free will. He's not fair.
He is willing to let us make mistakes as part of our growth as a human. Then He forgives and truly forgets our immature mistakes. If we are weak in an area, and adversity builds character in that area, are we too precious to stub our toe while learning to walk?

If you had children, did you demand perfection or else? Neither does our heavenly Father. Did you forgive your kids when they messed up and show them how to avoid calamity in the future? Did you have rules? Did you ever have to punish your children? For their sake or for yours? Did they make mistakes even though they had you for a father? So do we. Do you hold their mistakes against them? Neither does God.

Who had to guess who they were dealing with? God walked on this earth with Adam and Eve. They didn't have to figure out who He was. Neither did their kids. They knew Him. God placed the blame for Adam being deceived directly on Satan. What He did for Adam and Eve was to cover them to prevent their sin from separating them from Him. He removed them from the sin free zone of the Garden, and went with them.

In His time, not yours, He intends to restore this earth to it's original splendor. And remove us from Satan's grasp completely. And instead of turning His children into robokids, He gave us the ability to decide for ourselves where we would best enjoy eternity.

So, are you mad at God for offering the gift of eternal life in His presence, or are you mad that the gift of life is necessary to begin with?
Are you mad about not being born in more palatable surroundings like Heaven, instead of having to endure down here on earth for a moment?

And,
He is NOT down to punish you for being human. To the extent that you are flawed, He is perfect in that area. Let Him help . Where you are weakest, He is at His strongest. Let Him.......

If God created me to act specifically according to his will, I probably -wouldn't- be here crying foul. I can't imagine that's specifically what he'd want of me.

He does let us make mistakes. He then forgives us for those mistakes -if- we accept, and -truly- accept, that Jesus is our lord and savior. This implies honestly believing it. What of those of us who are incapable of truly believing that word without proof? How do I get forgiven if I don't even believe that the guy I'm asking to forgive me is in any position to do so. especially when everything about that guy's book says he's pretty insecure about whether or not I guessed his identity correctly? Am I a bad person for having a brain that demands a greater level of proof than I've ever been given to truly -feel- like there's a God up there at all and truly -feel- love for that God? I don't get to choose the level of proof at which I find evidence compelling: nobody does. You either find something compelling or you don't. This must be by God's design, so how could I be less forgivable for having this trait that he intentionally built into me?

Next, very little about God's punishments are akin to stubbing one's toe while learning to walk. God's punishments are death and eternal torture. That's got a good deal more finality to it than a spanking. The idea of stubbing your toe while learning to walk is experience a minor amount of discomfort that helps you realize your mistake. Eternal torture doesn't give you the opportunity to learn from that mistake and better yourself. It's final. Murdering your child doesn't help it learn to walk.

Now when you say that what God did for Adam and Eve was to prevent their sin from separating them from him, why is it possible that their sin could do this in the first place? God created creation. All of it. If he is infallible, then that separation is by his design. If he didn't want that for Adam and Eve, why did he program it into the system?

Also, he did not place all blame on Satan. You know how I know? HE EXPELLED ADAM AND EVE FROM THE GARDEN! THEN HE CURSED THE EARTH THAT HE SENT THEM INTO!

If Satan bears all responsibility, why the punishment for Adam and Eve? Is it just to punish someone for that for which they aren't responsible?

I really love this little bit about giving us the choice to decide where we'd rather spend eternity. By that you mean he gave us the opportunity to guess his true identity, in which case we'd experience eternal bliss, or he gave us the choice to be one of the vast, vast, VAST majority that the bible says will guess wrong based on our intentionally designed propensity for failure, and then we have decided that we'd rather spend eternity in inhuman agony. Yeah. . . choose where we'd rather spend eternity. LMFAO!

Lastly, I'm not mad at your God. I don't believe your God exists. I don't believe he doesn't, necessarily, but I do believe that your God's existence in the form in which you've illustrated him is highly unlikely. Way too many obvious contradictions in your basic definitions.

I am glad that your God's existence is unlikely, though. The God of the Old Testament is a psychopath, and the Jesus path makes him a psychotic version of Rumplestiltzkin. It's my belief that eternal agony is a HOLY SHIT excessive punishment for -anything-, let alone something that you predicted would happen to MOST of us, especially considering that you're INFALLIBLE AND ALL POWERFUL! That means you designed this species specifically so that most of them would be tortured eternally. OMFG, I can't imagine a sicker purpose for creating life.

 

[Newby]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

You're still not getting this. The fact that he offered us a potential way out of punishment does -not- change anything that I've said.

An infallible and all-powerful creator -knew- he was creating creatures that would inevitably sin and -could have- built them without that capacity.

He did not. He -intentionally- designed a species that wouldn't be able to avoid sin, and then decided later down the line that he'd offer them a way out, but that they had to guess without conclusive proof that the guy they were praying to was the correct way out.

He designed us for failure, is willing to punish us for that failure, and demands that we guess correctly who his kid is to avoid that punishment. Also, that punishment is ETERNAL TORTURE!

How is that love or justice?

He designed a species of billions of sentient beings that he -knew- he would ultimately end up subjecting to eternal torture. Whether he intended it mostly for Satan or not doesn't change the fact that

Also, on a side note, what of those people who had to exist between Genesis and Jesus? Those people who didn't have the Christ way out, and had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their inevitable sins? Did God take a break from love and justice during that period?

Next, when you say he didn't hold Adam or Eve accountable for their sin, HOLY SHIT WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

He kicked them out of the garden of Eden and cursed the Earth. That wasn't meant to be punishment? Was that just God's version of punching a wall to vent his frustration?

I'm not saying that he "can't wait for me to screw up so he can devour me". I'm saying he designed me knowing I would screw up from the get-go, sent me out into the cursed Earth that Adam and Eve's sin gained us even before I'd had a chance to sin, and he's down to punish me for the failures that he INTENTIONALLY BUILT INTO ME!

Again, a human living by the example of your God would give birth to a child, have an eye removed from that child, then pick a person who that child would have to apologize to for being half blind. IF the child didn't figure out who to say sorry to, the Godly parent would torture that child as horribly and for as long as was possible, and with ultimate finality (only death, no chance for future redemption). That would be the just act of a loving parent, assuming that your God is just and loving.

I guess it all depends upon the purpose of us being here is doesn't it? If it's a test, then yes he would create us with free will to choose, and give us enough information and intelligence to choose correctly, or not hold us accountable. In your earlier response to my post you mentioned that He has given you a brain and intelligence to discern therefore He shouldn't hold you accountable whenever 'logic' doesn't add up. Especially since He created you that way. Yet He is clearly telling you with His word that your logic is flawed or that there is more to it than your 'logic' and you are still not willing to have faith in that. Many other people are willing to have faith in that, in spite of the many questions and the many things we don't understand completely. So do you explain that by telling yourself that they're just stupid, or that they're just despearate? How can other people have faith when you find that you cannot?

 

[DriftingSand]

I was exposed to my neighbor who was Jewish, my other neighbors who were Mormon, a Christian Scientist, my Father and the rest of my family who doesn't believe in God and I had a school mate who was a Jehovah's Witness. My class in elementary school was divided and they talked about religion in school and there was always argumentation.

I was sympathetic but didn't want any parts of a lot of it as I was always stubborn.

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

I agree that most folks don't "become" Christians as a result of attending a particular church. I came to believe in Christ and the Bible in a roundabout way. I used to drink and drug heavily. At age 24 I had developed the early signs of cirrhosis of the liver (I didn't know that at the time but realized it later on). My 1st wife had left with another man and I was drunk and alone. One night after work I opened a fifth of vodka and drank about half of it. I was depressed and wanted to die. That's when I begged for God's help on my knees. I was drunk but I still knew I needed help.

A couple of days later a coworker approached me and asked if I wanted to go to an AA meeting with him. I didn't realize until a couple of years later that God had answered my prayer by sending this person. Anyway, I started attending AA meetings and remained sober. About 4 years into sobriety I realized that there was a greater meaning to life and I began to read the Bible (from the very beginning). I accepted Christ at some point during that period of life.

I am not a denominational Christian. I believe that the Bible contains all that is necessary to lead a man to Christ and eternal life. I don't need to follow any particular traditions or partake in any particular rituals. I simply need to embrace the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and try to live by the tenets of the New Testament. I fall short daily but I'm covered by Christ's sacrifice. He died on my behalf and in my stead. He's quick to forgive.

Anyway ... sorry for rambling.

 

[Newby]

With your propensity for being influenced and your desperate need for answers, there is absolutely no question you would have become a devout Islamist.

With your propensity to judge and your desperate need to ridicule those of faith, I wonder if your civility was discarded with your faith? Is it your disbelief that promotes such contempt for those that don't follow your opinions? Why so nasty???

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

And you are an ass, not worthy of anyone's time or response.

 

[DriftingSand]

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

You, too, are a victim of your surroundings. I'm guessing that you were raised by atheists but if not, I'd be willing to bet that you went through the public fool system and perhaps the University system both of which are aggressively anti-religion. You've most certainly been influenced by people whom you respect and who say what your ears want to hear.

But history shows that entire peoples that were NOT raised in a Christian culture have become Christians en masse. The Vikings and other pagans of that region come to mind. Many Chinese who were raised under eastern-religion influence. Many Africans raised in areas that had never heard of Christ. And the list goes on.

 

[thebrucebeat]

With your propensity to judge and your desperate need to ridicule those of faith, I wonder if your civility was discarded with your faith? Is it your disbelief that promotes such contempt for those that don't follow your opinions? Why so nasty???

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

And you are an ass, not worthy of anyone's time or response.

So why do you keep doing it?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

I agree that most folks don't "become" Christians as a result of attending a particular church. I came to believe in Christ and the Bible in a roundabout way. I used to drink and drug heavily. At age 24 I had developed the early signs of cirrhosis of the liver (I didn't know that at the time but realized it later on). My 1st wife had left with another man and I was drunk and alone. One night after work I opened a fifth of vodka and drank about half of it. I was depressed and wanted to die. That's when I begged for God's help on my knees. I was drunk but I still knew I needed help.

A couple of days later a coworker approached me and asked if I wanted to go to an AA meeting with him. I didn't realize until a couple of years later that God had answered my prayer by sending this person. Anyway, I started attending AA meetings and remained sober. About 4 years into sobriety I realized that there was a greater meaning to life and I began to read the Bible (from the very beginning). I accepted Christ at some point during that period of life.

I am not a denominational Christian. I believe that the Bible contains all that is necessary to lead a man to Christ and eternal life. I don't need to follow any particular traditions or partake in any particular rituals. I simply need to embrace the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and try to live by the tenets of the New Testament. I fall short daily but I'm covered by Christ's sacrifice. He died on my behalf and in my stead. He's quick to forgive.

Anyway ... sorry for rambling.

Glad to hear you recovered.
However, you make the point perfectly.
When at your point of crisis, the cultural availability of another dominant faith tradition was nearly non-existent and when you reached for a theological answer to your pain it was inevitable it was going to be the bible.
What else would it have been?
Your family edition of the Bhagavad Gita? The Qur'an?

 

[thebrucebeat]

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

You, too, are a victim of your surroundings. I'm guessing that you were raised by atheists but if not, I'd be willing to bet that you went through the public fool system and perhaps the University system both of which are aggressively anti-religion. You've most certainly been influenced by people whom you respect and who say what your ears want to hear.

But history shows that entire peoples that were NOT raised in a Christian culture have become Christians en masse. The Vikings and other pagans of that region come to mind. Many Chinese who were raised under eastern-religion influence. Many Africans raised in areas that had never heard of Christ. And the list goes on.

Went to church and Sunday school as a boy. Sang in the choir. Became a pastor later in life. Left it when I left the faith.
Sorry.
In any given culture you will find around 80% of the people adhere to the local theological custom.
Statistically, your faith was never your decision. Your recovery story is a perfect example.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

You, too, are a victim of your surroundings. I'm guessing that you were raised by atheists but if not, I'd be willing to bet that you went through the public fool system and perhaps the University system both of which are aggressively anti-religion. You've most certainly been influenced by people whom you respect and who say what your ears want to hear.

But history shows that entire peoples that were NOT raised in a Christian culture have become Christians en masse. The Vikings and other pagans of that region come to mind. Many Chinese who were raised under eastern-religion influence. Many Africans raised in areas that had never heard of Christ. And the list goes on.

Went to church and Sunday school as a boy. Sang in the choir. Became a pastor later in life. Left it when I left the faith.
Sorry.
In any given culture you will find around 80% of the people adhere to the local theological custom.
Statistically, your faith was never your decision. Your recovery story is a perfect example.

Gotta agree with Bruce, here. The fact that people all over the world are converted doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is just naturally more compelling. I'm not sure if you've heard any of the stories, but Christian missionary tactics right up until midway through the 20th century were pretty hardcore, and often coupled with colonization and forced suppression of what were previously the local culture and traditions.

Many of the native cultures that the Christian missionaries hit up also got hit with new, unidentified European diseases when the missionaries hit their shores, giving a lot of the more superstitious cultures more incentive to believe that some sort of powerful juju was with them on those ships.

So you combine competent, military dominance, an influx of new sickness -perfectly- synchronized with the arrival of Christian missionaries, and the suppression of the old religions with the aggressive promotion of Christianity, and yeah. . . cultures eventually ate that shit up. That doesn't imply an inherent correctness to the faith, it implies effective sales tactics.

If you need proof that dominant local customs are the ones people are most likely to adopt, just look at the regional dominance of religions. You combine an ethnic culture and a geographical region, and the religion practiced by the vast, VAST majority of that combination is typically common knowledge.

Italians on the East coast of the US mostly observe Catholicism. Persians in Iran mostly observe Islam. Samoans in Hawaii mostly observe Mormonism. Mexicans from Mexico tend to observe Catholicism.

This isn't a crazy coincidence. The reasoning's actually very basic. When a human's in its formative years, it tends to believe that the older humans its regularly in contact with are valid sources of information. Depending on your ethnicity and geographical region, members of one's family are highly likely to practice the dominant ethnic/geographical faith if any faith at all. Thus, even if the child isn't actively brought up in that faith by its parents, future faith choices will all have been lubricated by the formative experience wherein the most compelling sources of information promoted the dominant faith. Combine that with the ready availability and continued promotion of that faith based on continued residence in the region in question, and it's no -wonder- people adopt the religion that's popular.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

You're still not getting this. The fact that he offered us a potential way out of punishment does -not- change anything that I've said.

An infallible and all-powerful creator -knew- he was creating creatures that would inevitably sin and -could have- built them without that capacity.

He did not. He -intentionally- designed a species that wouldn't be able to avoid sin, and then decided later down the line that he'd offer them a way out, but that they had to guess without conclusive proof that the guy they were praying to was the correct way out.

He designed us for failure, is willing to punish us for that failure, and demands that we guess correctly who his kid is to avoid that punishment. Also, that punishment is ETERNAL TORTURE!

How is that love or justice?

He designed a species of billions of sentient beings that he -knew- he would ultimately end up subjecting to eternal torture. Whether he intended it mostly for Satan or not doesn't change the fact that

Also, on a side note, what of those people who had to exist between Genesis and Jesus? Those people who didn't have the Christ way out, and had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their inevitable sins? Did God take a break from love and justice during that period?

Next, when you say he didn't hold Adam or Eve accountable for their sin, HOLY SHIT WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

He kicked them out of the garden of Eden and cursed the Earth. That wasn't meant to be punishment? Was that just God's version of punching a wall to vent his frustration?

I'm not saying that he "can't wait for me to screw up so he can devour me". I'm saying he designed me knowing I would screw up from the get-go, sent me out into the cursed Earth that Adam and Eve's sin gained us even before I'd had a chance to sin, and he's down to punish me for the failures that he INTENTIONALLY BUILT INTO ME!

Again, a human living by the example of your God would give birth to a child, have an eye removed from that child, then pick a person who that child would have to apologize to for being half blind. IF the child didn't figure out who to say sorry to, the Godly parent would torture that child as horribly and for as long as was possible, and with ultimate finality (only death, no chance for future redemption). That would be the just act of a loving parent, assuming that your God is just and loving.

I guess it all depends upon the purpose of us being here is doesn't it? If it's a test, then yes he would create us with free will to choose, and give us enough information and intelligence to choose correctly, or not hold us accountable. In your earlier response to my post you mentioned that He has given you a brain and intelligence to discern therefore He shouldn't hold you accountable whenever 'logic' doesn't add up. Especially since He created you that way. Yet He is clearly telling you with His word that your logic is flawed or that there is more to it than your 'logic' and you are still not willing to have faith in that. Many other people are willing to have faith in that, in spite of the many questions and the many things we don't understand completely. So do you explain that by telling yourself that they're just stupid, or that they're just despearate? How can other people have faith when you find that you cannot?

The test is my favorite apologist argument to shit all over, no offense.

God is all-knowing and infallible. That means when he created each one of us, he knew from the get-go whether or not we were going to pass his "test".

Now, you do understand the purpose of a test, yes? A test is designed to answer a question. "Test a hypothesis" to decide if the hypothesis is true. Essentially, a test implies that you don't know the result. Otherwise, there is literally no reason to run a test.

Therefore, if God created us and put us here to test us, but he already knows the answer to the test, then he's literally acting with no reasonable purpose. It would be intellectual masturbation. It'd be like a grown adult testing whether or not pissing into a wind storm would get his pants wet. It's not even a question, you're just being silly.

So if God is testing us to decide the answer to a question he already knows, it's mental masturbation. Given that his highest commandment (therefore the value most important to Him that humans are able to offend) is that no other Gods are worshipped, only him, then his second commandment is that no Idols are worshipped, only him, then his THIRD commandment is that you don't take his name in vain, AND the pathway to heaven involves guessing the correct guy to give credit to for your existence and salvation, I'd have to say that the mental masturbation is stroking his ego, in particular; The guy's obviously very concerned that everybody acknowledge that he's awesome, that he's the best, and that nobody else is as awesome as Him, and also never ever say anything bad about him. That's how you pass his "test". LMFAO!

That wouldn't be so bad. The idea that we're put here for the sake of validating our creator's shaky, malnourished ego wouldn't be so bleak if it weren't for the fact that failure of his "test" results in eternal agony, and the vast, VAST majority of us are destined for that failure. That gives the mental masturbation of this "test" a distinctly psychotic, malicious edge.

I often wonder if people think about this shit when they read the commandments. Psychoanalyze the source of those -particular- rules some time. It's pretty fuckin hilarious.

 

[Newby]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

 

[GISMYS]

GOD IS OUTSIDE TIME! TIME FOR GOD IS LIKE A LINE ON PAPER. GOD now sees the beginning to the end today=now. GOD IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA,to GOD a thousand years is like a day and a day like a 1000 years. Just because GOD sees NOW what your choice was,is and will be,does not change the fact that what you choose to do ia all your choice!! TRY TO THINK!

 

[thebrucebeat]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

Why do you come on here to bash people that don't share your faith?
Two sides of the same coin.
Everyone is finding the entertainment they seek.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

In all fairness, I do very little bashing of anyone's faith or ideals, even here on this forum. I'm sorry that I used the term "shit all over" and it clearly struck you as something malicious, but for me this philosophical debate is like a mental sport.

If you and I were playing basketball and I dunked on you, I'd probably drop off the rim and talk some friendly shit right into your face while backpedaling to the other side of the court to defend. There's no maliciousness in it, it's part of the fun of competition.

Humans have both eyes in the front of their head to accurately judge distance so we can effectively target prey on the move. We have incisors to rend flesh. We have a brain that requires something as energy efficient as complex proteins to effectively power and maintain. Everything about us says that we're predators. The passion about competition comes with the territory. Don't suppress it, REVEL IN IT!

As far as your thoughts on tolerance, I'm actually very tolerant. I've got friends and family who are devout Christians, my mother included. I never, -ever- argue the particulars of my mother's faith with her. She doesn't appreciate it and I grant her that.

Here, however, in -this- environment, we are here SPECIFICALLY to argue philosophy. This is a platform SPECIFICALLY designed to facilitate discussions that help the more open-minded of us discover and update our definitions of philosophical truth, or at least render our philosophical opinions more thought-out by tempering them with the conflicting arguments of people with opposing viewpoints. Me arguing with you about your religion only happened because you voluntarily came here to argue it. Don't get defensive just because I responded in kind, it has nothing to do with me "allowing" you your view. If my pointing out logical fallacies feels like I'm not "allowing" you your view, maybe you should reanalyze how compelling you actually find your own beliefs.

Questioning what you believe is psychologically and emotionally healthy. I look at this, aside from sport, as being an opportunity to both help others question their beliefs and an opportunity to acquire their voluntary help in questioning my own. Why take offense when what this forum allows is so intellectually beneficial?

 

[Newby]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

Why do you come on here to bash people that don't share your faith?Two sides of the same coin.
Everyone is finding the entertainment they seek.

I've never done that, ever. All you have is lies, I pity you.

 

[Newby]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

In all fairness, I do very little bashing of anyone's faith or ideals, even here on this forum. I'm sorry that I used the term "shit all over" and it clearly struck you as something malicious, but for me this philosophical debate is like a mental sport.

If you and I were playing basketball and I dunked on you, I'd probably drop off the rim and talk some friendly shit right into your face while backpedaling to the other side of the court to defend. There's no maliciousness in it, it's part of the fun of competition.

Humans have both eyes in the front of their head to accurately judge distance so we can effectively target prey on the move. We have incisors to rend flesh. We have a brain that requires something as energy efficient as complex proteins to effectively power and maintain. Everything about us says that we're predators. The passion about competition comes with the territory. Don't suppress it, REVEL IN IT!

As far as your thoughts on tolerance, I'm actually very tolerant. I've got friends and family who are devout Christians, my mother included. I never, -ever- argue the particulars of my mother's faith with her. She doesn't appreciate it and I grant her that.

Here, however, in -this- environment, we are here SPECIFICALLY to argue philosophy. This is a platform SPECIFICALLY designed to facilitate discussions that help the more open-minded of us discover and update our definitions of philosophical truth, or at least render our philosophical opinions more thought-out by tempering them with the conflicting arguments of people with opposing viewpoints. Me arguing with you about your religion only happened because you voluntarily came here to argue it. Don't get defensive just because I responded in kind, it has nothing to do with me "allowing" you your view. If my pointing out logical fallacies feels like I'm not "allowing" you your view, maybe you should reanalyze how compelling you actually find your own beliefs.

Questioning what you believe is psychologically and emotionally healthy. I look at this, aside from sport, as being an opportunity to both help others question their beliefs and an opportunity to acquire their voluntary help in questioning my own. Why take offense when what this forum allows is so intellectually beneficial?

I wasn't speaking of you specifically, what little I've seen of your posting, I don't think you do that. I'm very willing to offer respect to those that provide it in return, so as long as that is the case, I'm willing to discuss any topic. I'm referring to those such as Bruce, Daws, etc... that use this as a forum to ridicule and bait. They have no true interest in any type of understanding and they have to lie about those they wish to debase because they can't use facts. And I never said that it couldn't be debated, I'm fine with debate. But that's not what you see on here from the majority of atheists, you see arrogance, belittling, gotchya games, etc... So once a person goes down that road, I can have no respect, nor take them seriously any longer. And you typically see it as a pattern in their posting. I can predict what Bruce will respond even before he does, it's a broken record of the same pattern that I've seen hundreds of times before from others just like him.

For us, it just boils down to the fact that we see things differently, and I'm respectful of that, I understand where you're coming from, I have a lot of the same questions that you do. But there's also something else, instinct perhaps, that guides my beliefs and the fact that the human mind is far from capable of understanding much about the universe and our existance. So there is a lot of room for many different possibilities to rule anything out completely.

And I'm guessing you'd kick my ass in basketball...

 

[DriftingSand]

The God of Christianity is regarded as all-merciful and is touted as being slow to anger but fast to forgive. Why then is the punishment for eighty years of misdeeds an eternity in eternal suffering? Even the US government would not be so harsh- protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Why then is God? It should stand to reason that Hell would be some kind of final redeemer, where the amount of time spent there is equivalent to the amount of time it takes one to repent truly, ie, the ultimate tool for redemption. People face unimaginable pain and torture until they realize their sins. And once they realize their wrongs, would a true God of compassion who cares for all of his creation leave them to continue to suffer?

The punishment isn't for eighty years.

The angels had full knowledge. Why isn't there redemption for angels? Because they knew?
There seems to be redemption for man because man didn't have full knowledge.

You're the judge. Everyone's name was written in the book of life until they were blotted out. You're the judge. What do you think of Jesus? When you judge Jesus you are judging yourself.

You misunderstood my point with the eighty years thing. It should read as "the punishment for living a life (about eighty years) full of wrongdoing..."
The angels should have redemption too, if they repented.
What do I think of Jesus? I think that God actually does have power over Jesus, and that the universe would be a much nicer place if Jesus ran it.
But you never gave a clear answer, do you believe that after being sent to Hell, someone who truly repents should be released back into Heaven?

The key word? IF! There is no indication that the rebellious angels ever repented or ever plan to. God transcends time and knows the outcome of His Story (history). There is no indication in the prophetic portions of the Bible that the fallen angels will ever turn from the path that they chose in the beginning (biblically speaking).

 

[thebrucebeat]

I would say that since we're given free will, He doesn't know what you will end up chosing until you chose it. Otherwise, it's not free will, is it? The beauty of it is that no one is forcing you to believe anything, it's your own choice. If it doesn't make sense to you, then don't believe in it. If others find merit in it, then be tolerant enough to allow them their beliefs. What do unbelievers get out of constantly bashing those that believe? A sense of superiority? Do they have to put others down in order to lift themselves up? As much as non-believers can't understand how others believe, I have the same difficulty understanding why others would waste their time bashing people of faith. It's illogical, it's only emotional, yet they take the stance that they are the only 'logical' ones in the debate. I see it as just the opposite. There is order, it wasn't created out of chaos. Whether that order was creating by a loving or malevolent being is moot since there's nothing any of us can do to change it.

Why do you come on here to bash people that don't share your faith?Two sides of the same coin.
Everyone is finding the entertainment they seek.

I've never done that, ever. All you have is lies, I pity you.

You do it all the time, and with a crudeness and vulgarity that is among the worst on these threads.
We all rationalize our behavior.
No one ever thinks THEY are the bad seed.

 

[Newby]

Why do you come on here to bash people that don't share your faith?Two sides of the same coin.
Everyone is finding the entertainment they seek.

I've never done that, ever. All you have is lies, I pity you.

You do it all the time, and with a crudeness and vulgarity that is among the worst on these threads.
We all rationalize our behavior.
No one ever thinks THEY are the bad seed.

Oooookay, whatever you say little Brucie...