The Ultimate Tool for Redemption

[thebrucebeat]

I've never done that, ever. All you have is lies, I pity you.

You do it all the time, and with a crudeness and vulgarity that is among the worst on these threads.
We all rationalize our behavior.
No one ever thinks THEY are the bad seed.

Oooookay, whatever you say little Brucie...

I accept your lack of defense as an admission.

 

[Newby]

You do it all the time, and with a crudeness and vulgarity that is among the worst on these threads.
We all rationalize our behavior.
No one ever thinks THEY are the bad seed.

Oooookay, whatever you say little Brucie...

I accept your lack of defense as an admission.

Do I look like I care? Seriously? You just can't help yourself, can you?

I whistle and like a good little puppy, you come running!

 

[koshergrl]

You people. You don't understand.

You see through a glass, darkly. You see your own pettiness, and maliciousness, and you assign it to Him because you refuse to engage in any meaningful dialogue with him. You think you have all the answers, and that you don't need God. The fact of the matter is, people without God are miserable creatures, and they see only misery around them. We are designed to love and follow God, and when we don't, we are unfulfilled and unhappy.

Sadly, misery loves company.

Stop trying to drag believers down to your level...it won't work, and it just further embitters you.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Oooookay, whatever you say little Brucie...

I accept your lack of defense as an admission.

Do I look like I care? Seriously? You just can't help yourself, can you?

I whistle and like a good little puppy, you come running!

We know you don't care.
The question is why?
You claim Christ as the leader of your life, and then ignore anything to do with him.
Why not just get it over with and leave the lie behind.
Be the unrepentent bully you want to be, and are, and don't be faced with the obvious hypocrisy of your online persona and your pretended beliefs.

 

[koshergrl]

Again, we don't answer to internet worms who think they have the answers for us. We answer to God, and to Him alone.

I don't think you truly conceive of how little your approval means to the people of God...or perhaps you do understand, and that's what makes you so batshit insane over the subject matter of religion.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Again, we don't answer to internet worms who think they have the answers for us. We answer to God, and to Him alone.

I don't think you truly conceive of how little your approval means to the people of God...or perhaps you do understand, and that's what makes you so batshit insane over the subject matter of religion.

I never ask why people don't conform to my vision.
I always ask why they jettison the vision described in their scriptures.
Mysteriously, they always get very offended by that.

 

[CorvusRexus]

The God of Christianity is regarded as all-merciful and is touted as being slow to anger but fast to forgive. Why then is the punishment for eighty years of misdeeds an eternity in eternal suffering? Even the US government would not be so harsh- protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Why then is God? It should stand to reason that Hell would be some kind of final redeemer, where the amount of time spent there is equivalent to the amount of time it takes one to repent truly, ie, the ultimate tool for redemption. People face unimaginable pain and torture until they realize their sins. And once they realize their wrongs, would a true God of compassion who cares for all of his creation leave them to continue to suffer?

You're talking about "ultimate reconciliation" which, unfortunately, isn't a biblical doctrine. Death and hell are literal consequences for man's sinful nature and actions. God is just. He gave man a choice in the very beginning. He laid out in simple terms what was necessary for eternal life and what would happen if man disobeyed Him. Man chose the latter. So mankind was doomed to certain death until God took mercy upon him and gave him a way out. He took on a flesh body and died in our stead thus paying the penalty for sins.

So the door is open to anyone who desires eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That door is Jesus Christ. Accept Him and claim entrance or deny/reject Him and suffer the consequences. This truly is a life or death decision.

I get that the bible says that God is just over and over, but if that's the case, then what is justice?

Your first premise here is that God gave "man" a choice in the beginning and "man" chose a sinful nature, thus death and hell are the consequences for mankind. What you are stating is that an entire species is being punished up to and including the potential for eternal torture beyond imagining, for the actions of the first man, i.e. actions that nobody else among the species, other than Eve, had any chance of preventing.

The implication you're making here is that justice includes punishing people for the actions of others over which they had -no- influence. Justice includes punishing someone for the actions of someone else, if we are to believe that the biblical God is the template for justice.

So the question must be asked: Is our idea of justice skewed? Is true justice the punishment of everyone for every transgression of anyone?

More to the point of the OP, however, the question of eternal punishment must be considered. The only reasoning you've offered for why eternal punishment is the norm is that God said we either obey him or we pay the consequences. The implication this time is that hell is a just punishment because it was included in God's this-or-that. Essentially, I must assume by your reasoning that if a figure of authority includes a punishment in his ultimatum, then that punishment is automatically a just one.

What you're saying, essentially, is that the guy with the gun is the guy who decides the nature of justice. Shall I assume this to be your view on the concept?

If that's not the case, then why is an eternity of torture a just punishment for not figuring out who the real God is?

Pretty much, yes. And nice analogy, FYI, I think I'll borrow it.

Imagine a world where one man had a gun and was armed to the teeth, whereas everyone simply lacked any capacity to fight back. Should that one person be treated as infallible simply because they have the gun pointed at you? Even if God is greater than us, who gave him the right to damn us for eternity?

 

[CorvusRexus]

Fair point, but light can't exist without darkness, love without hate, peace without war, etc. so I'll ignore that.
If Adam and Eve didn't sin, Adam would have replied, "No. My love is for God alone."
Speaking of the first sin, you seem to forget that eating the fruit also gave mankind knowledge of good. Thus, without the fruit, God could not be seen as good by us, because we couldn't comprehend it.

I disagree. Darkness is simply the absence of light. You seem to hold to the eastern Yin/Yang philosophy in which good and evil exist as equal counterparts. But the fact of the matter (from a biblical point of view) is that light can absolutely exist without darkness. Good can absolutely exist without evil. One is not at all dependent upon the other.

To the second point: God could absolutely see man as good if man had no evil. Man wouldn't necessarily have to have "knowledge of good and evil" in order to be good. He is "good" by default if he is not evil.

1. Nothing is "good" without the presence of "evil" there as well. Just as nothing is "light" without a counterbalancing "dark" to define it. It is simply the nature of those things. One gives shape and definition to the other" both are equally dependent on another.
In a perfect world without "evil", eventually some "good" acts would become seen as "evil" simply to redefine "good" and to give it structure again. One must have knowledge of both to understand them.
2.Good is not the absence of evil. Good is the work against evil. Thus, without knowledge of what evil was, man could not be "good".

 

[CorvusRexus]

That is the point. God came down as a man. Jesus was the second Adam and Jesus kept the whole law as the perfect law keeper so God is not fallible. The first Adam had only one commandment and that was to not eat of the one tree. Adam only had to keep one law.

All sin is willful. You don't have to sin but you do because you choose to.
You have the law. You don't have to sin. You have the information right there but you and many other people will sin because it is a choice you do.

Okay, this almost defeats part of my point. You still have to acknowledge, though, that if God is infallible, then it is not by accident that no human can go through life sinless. It is guaranteed, and by His own intentional design. An all-knowing, all-powerful God would, in fact, even have to have seen Adam's betrayal coming before it happened. Indeed, the infallible and all-powerful God would have to have -planned- it that way (if it were a mistake, he would be fallible).

How is it just to intentionally design a creature for failure and then punish it and all of its offspring for that failure? How is that love?

He didn't design everything for failure. He said everything He created was good.

Oh really? Well then in that case Satan is a good thing. And so is Hell.

 

[CorvusRexus]

The punishment isn't for eighty years.

The angels had full knowledge. Why isn't there redemption for angels? Because they knew?
There seems to be redemption for man because man didn't have full knowledge.

You're the judge. Everyone's name was written in the book of life until they were blotted out. You're the judge. What do you think of Jesus? When you judge Jesus you are judging yourself.

You misunderstood my point with the eighty years thing. It should read as "the punishment for living a life (about eighty years) full of wrongdoing..."
The angels should have redemption too, if they repented.
What do I think of Jesus? I think that God actually does have power over Jesus, and that the universe would be a much nicer place if Jesus ran it.
But you never gave a clear answer, do you believe that after being sent to Hell, someone who truly repents should be released back into Heaven?

The key word? IF! There is no indication that the rebellious angels ever repented or ever plan to. God transcends time and knows the outcome of His Story (history). There is no indication in the prophetic portions of the Bible that the fallen angels will ever turn from the path that they chose in the beginning (biblically speaking).

So God created them knowing they would rebel and they would corrupt humanity and damn themselves and so many others to eternal damnation?


Sure signs of a merciful and loving God right there!

 

[Chuckt]

Okay, this almost defeats part of my point. You still have to acknowledge, though, that if God is infallible, then it is not by accident that no human can go through life sinless. It is guaranteed, and by His own intentional design. An all-knowing, all-powerful God would, in fact, even have to have seen Adam's betrayal coming before it happened. Indeed, the infallible and all-powerful God would have to have -planned- it that way (if it were a mistake, he would be fallible).

How is it just to intentionally design a creature for failure and then punish it and all of its offspring for that failure? How is that love?

He didn't design everything for failure. He said everything He created was good.

Oh really? Well then in that case Satan is a good thing. And so is Hell.

And is being twisted with sin is so much better or would mankind prefer being robots so they weren't twisted with sin?

I'm free, I'm happy, I'm going some place fantastic where I will have worry free living and I'm not going to be bothered with hell.

 

[Chuckt]

You misunderstood my point with the eighty years thing. It should read as "the punishment for living a life (about eighty years) full of wrongdoing..."
The angels should have redemption too, if they repented.
What do I think of Jesus? I think that God actually does have power over Jesus, and that the universe would be a much nicer place if Jesus ran it.
But you never gave a clear answer, do you believe that after being sent to Hell, someone who truly repents should be released back into Heaven?

The key word? IF! There is no indication that the rebellious angels ever repented or ever plan to. God transcends time and knows the outcome of His Story (history). There is no indication in the prophetic portions of the Bible that the fallen angels will ever turn from the path that they chose in the beginning (biblically speaking).

So God created them knowing they would rebel and they would corrupt humanity and damn themselves and so many others to eternal damnation?


Sure signs of a merciful and loving God right there!

God did more than you by taking responsibility for Adam's sin by dying on the cross. What have you done to take responsibility for Adam's sin?

 

[Chuckt]

You misunderstood my point with the eighty years thing. It should read as "the punishment for living a life (about eighty years) full of wrongdoing..."
The angels should have redemption too, if they repented.
What do I think of Jesus? I think that God actually does have power over Jesus, and that the universe would be a much nicer place if Jesus ran it.
But you never gave a clear answer, do you believe that after being sent to Hell, someone who truly repents should be released back into Heaven?

The key word? IF! There is no indication that the rebellious angels ever repented or ever plan to. God transcends time and knows the outcome of His Story (history). There is no indication in the prophetic portions of the Bible that the fallen angels will ever turn from the path that they chose in the beginning (biblically speaking).

So God created them knowing they would rebel and they would corrupt humanity and damn themselves and so many others to eternal damnation?


Sure signs of a merciful and loving God right there!

Free will means what? It means making mistakes and damaging creation.
Having free will is very merciful because without it life might be meaningless or trivial to some people.
I get to escape my mistakes in life as if it almost didn't matter and that is merciful. Do you get to escape your mistakes in life?

I'm going to laugh it off and live forever and you can hang on to the injustice in the world.

My way is more productive than yours. God will remake me as new and none of it will matter because we will see things as they are.

 

[PainefulTruth]

The God of Christianity is regarded as all-merciful and is touted as being slow to anger but fast to forgive. Why then is the punishment for eighty years of misdeeds an eternity in eternal suffering? Even the US government would not be so harsh- protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Why then is God? It should stand to reason that Hell would be some kind of final redeemer, where the amount of time spent there is equivalent to the amount of time it takes one to repent truly, ie, the ultimate tool for redemption. People face unimaginable pain and torture until they realize their sins. And once they realize their wrongs, would a true God of compassion who cares for all of his creation leave them to continue to suffer?

Think of our time here as a test. When we die, we find ourselves in the undeniable light of Truth. We won't be able to lie, especially to ourselves. We will be our own judges. The pain of the realization of those who spent their time here being evil will be unbearable, and would be equivalent to living in a lake of fire. But everyone will have the oblivion option, which many will avail themselves of.

To believe in hell, you have to believe in the irrational tenets of revealed religion. Would God and the heavenly hosts (if those exist) want to listen to the crying and gnashing of teeth for all eternity. I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure nothing with any compassion would either. It's sadistic. The fly in the ointment, of course, is those with blind faith in the irrational Bible or other books of divine "revelation".

 

[Chuckt]

The God of Christianity is regarded as all-merciful and is touted as being slow to anger but fast to forgive. Why then is the punishment for eighty years of misdeeds an eternity in eternal suffering? Even the US government would not be so harsh- protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Why then is God? It should stand to reason that Hell would be some kind of final redeemer, where the amount of time spent there is equivalent to the amount of time it takes one to repent truly, ie, the ultimate tool for redemption. People face unimaginable pain and torture until they realize their sins. And once they realize their wrongs, would a true God of compassion who cares for all of his creation leave them to continue to suffer?

Think of our time here as a test. When we die, we find ourselves in the undeniable light of Truth. We won't be able to lie, especially to ourselves. We will be our own judges. The pain of the realization of those who spent their time here being evil will be unbearable, and would be equivalent to living in a lake of fire. But everyone will have the oblivion option, which many will avail themselves of.

To believe in hell, you have to believe in the irrational tenets of revealed religion. Would God and the heavenly hosts (if those exist) want to listen to the crying and gnashing of teeth for all eternity. I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure nothing with any compassion would either. It's sadistic. The fly in the ointment, of course, is those with blind faith in the irrational Bible or other books of divine "revelation".

Do you cry about those who are on death row? Do you stay up night worrying about their fate?

Do you think letting them out would be a good idea especially when some of them would kill again? If the answer is "No" then I'll assure you that most people aren't worrying.

 

[thebrucebeat]

The God of Christianity is regarded as all-merciful and is touted as being slow to anger but fast to forgive. Why then is the punishment for eighty years of misdeeds an eternity in eternal suffering? Even the US government would not be so harsh- protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Why then is God? It should stand to reason that Hell would be some kind of final redeemer, where the amount of time spent there is equivalent to the amount of time it takes one to repent truly, ie, the ultimate tool for redemption. People face unimaginable pain and torture until they realize their sins. And once they realize their wrongs, would a true God of compassion who cares for all of his creation leave them to continue to suffer?

Think of our time here as a test. When we die, we find ourselves in the undeniable light of Truth. We won't be able to lie, especially to ourselves. We will be our own judges. The pain of the realization of those who spent their time here being evil will be unbearable, and would be equivalent to living in a lake of fire. But everyone will have the oblivion option, which many will avail themselves of.

To believe in hell, you have to believe in the irrational tenets of revealed religion. Would God and the heavenly hosts (if those exist) want to listen to the crying and gnashing of teeth for all eternity. I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure nothing with any compassion would either. It's sadistic. The fly in the ointment, of course, is those with blind faith in the irrational Bible or other books of divine "revelation".

Do you cry about those who are on death row? Do you stay up night worrying about their fate?

Do you think letting them out would be a good idea especially when some of them would kill again? If the answer is "No" then I'll assure you that most people aren't worrying.

So they are simply refuse to you? What part of scripture says "When I am in prison discard Me. Weep not for Me."
The only options you see are execution or release?
Your cavalier attitude toward human life is surprising, to say the least.

 

[Chuckt]

Think of our time here as a test. When we die, we find ourselves in the undeniable light of Truth. We won't be able to lie, especially to ourselves. We will be our own judges. The pain of the realization of those who spent their time here being evil will be unbearable, and would be equivalent to living in a lake of fire. But everyone will have the oblivion option, which many will avail themselves of.

To believe in hell, you have to believe in the irrational tenets of revealed religion. Would God and the heavenly hosts (if those exist) want to listen to the crying and gnashing of teeth for all eternity. I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure nothing with any compassion would either. It's sadistic. The fly in the ointment, of course, is those with blind faith in the irrational Bible or other books of divine "revelation".

Do you cry about those who are on death row? Do you stay up night worrying about their fate?

Do you think letting them out would be a good idea especially when some of them would kill again? If the answer is "No" then I'll assure you that most people aren't worrying.

So they are simply refuse to you? What part of scripture says "When I am in prison discard Me. Weep not for Me."
The only options you see are execution or release?
Your cavalier attitude toward human life is surprising, to say the least.

I said, "Death Row".
I already work near "release". It is called a Methadon clinic and the judge gives people the choice to go to jail or the meth clinic. We had to put locks on the outside of the building because the customers near the local Methadon clinic were walking into our building saying they were looking for their bus pass and we put locks on the doors to keep them from being confrontational.
If you want to weep for them then you first.

 

[Chuckt]

Think of our time here as a test. When we die, we find ourselves in the undeniable light of Truth. We won't be able to lie, especially to ourselves. We will be our own judges. The pain of the realization of those who spent their time here being evil will be unbearable, and would be equivalent to living in a lake of fire. But everyone will have the oblivion option, which many will avail themselves of.

To believe in hell, you have to believe in the irrational tenets of revealed religion. Would God and the heavenly hosts (if those exist) want to listen to the crying and gnashing of teeth for all eternity. I wouldn't and I'm pretty sure nothing with any compassion would either. It's sadistic. The fly in the ointment, of course, is those with blind faith in the irrational Bible or other books of divine "revelation".

Do you cry about those who are on death row? Do you stay up night worrying about their fate?

Do you think letting them out would be a good idea especially when some of them would kill again? If the answer is "No" then I'll assure you that most people aren't worrying.

So they are simply refuse to you? What part of scripture says "When I am in prison discard Me. Weep not for Me."
The only options you see are execution or release?
Your cavalier attitude toward human life is surprising, to say the least.

As CBS 2’s Elise Finch reported Tuesday, a convicted criminal recently had been let out of prison, when he allegedly robbed the same store in Toms River, N.J. that put him there 15 years ago.

Cops: Man Robs Same NJ Store He Robbed 15 Years Earlier On Day After Release From Prison « CBS New York

This is the man you are trying to rehabilitate. Enlighten me.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Do you cry about those who are on death row? Do you stay up night worrying about their fate?

Do you think letting them out would be a good idea especially when some of them would kill again? If the answer is "No" then I'll assure you that most people aren't worrying.

So they are simply refuse to you? What part of scripture says "When I am in prison discard Me. Weep not for Me."
The only options you see are execution or release?
Your cavalier attitude toward human life is surprising, to say the least.

As CBS 2’s Elise Finch reported Tuesday, a convicted criminal recently had been let out of prison, when he allegedly robbed the same store in Toms River, N.J. that put him there 15 years ago.

Cops: Man Robs Same NJ Store He Robbed 15 Years Earlier On Day After Release From Prison « CBS New York

This is the man you are trying to rehabilitate. Enlighten me.

This doesn't begin to reply to my post.

 

[CorvusRexus]

He didn't design everything for failure. He said everything He created was good.

Oh really? Well then in that case Satan is a good thing. And so is Hell.

And is being twisted with sin is so much better or would mankind prefer being robots so they weren't twisted with sin?

I'm free, I'm happy, I'm going some place fantastic where I will have worry free living and I'm not going to be bothered with hell.

So you admit sin is a good thing? And it makes you happy to live in a world full of sin?
I admit living a sinful world makes life more exciting, but you didn't really answer my point. God created sin and evil by your reasoning, and liked it. If you follow that chain of reasoning, God is either not inherently good, or is a psychopath.