The Truth about Mormons

[JakeStarkey]

Re geographic distribution of Lehi's seed in the New World. Several pooh pooh'd the idea that the LDS church would have to be moving to a much more limited geography for the children of Lehi in the new world, instead of the general belief that the Native Americans are all their descedents. I told the nay sayers they were wrong. Any interested can read at Debate on Mormons' geographic origins heats up | Religion | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

 

[Skeptik]

Re geographic distribution of Lehi's seed in the New World. Several pooh pooh'd the idea that the LDS church would have to be moving to a much more limited geography for the children of Lehi in the new world, instead of the general belief that the Native Americans are all their descedents. I told the nay sayers they were wrong. Any interested can read at Debate on Mormons' geographic origins heats up | Religion | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

 

[Truthspeaker]

First, we need to be careful as to when and how we use the word evidence. Evidence is not judgment. It is not final. Not even in a court of law. God knows.

As to evidence of cites, it is mountainous. The topography discussed in detail matches identically with Meso America. There are many who have jumped to conclusions which have not been revealed. both parties are guilty of this. What is completely conclusive is that the results are not entirely conclusive. So what's the point of the argument? That's not the point of this thread. Those who want to believe one way will find "evidences" of their point of view. There is so much for both sides that really the only way to truly know is to pray for revelation privately and personally.

and btw, the book of mormon description of the "narrow neck of land" is not the Panama Isthmus as many had previously thought. Because of the description of the seas in the text as being "sea west", "sea east", "Sea North", and "Sea South". the only place for that to be possible would be the Isthmus of Tehuantepec in Mexico/Guatemala. Joseph Smith knew little of this geography as an unlearned farm boy, yet somehow seemed to hit every evidencial nail on the head, so to speak.

 

[Truthspeaker]

We also need to be careful when ascribing the words of Joseph Smith to any geographical implications. The few things he did say about what happened to descendants of Lehi in the heartland area were of names of men not mentioned in the Book of Mormon therefore suggesting they may not have happened in the same time or place as book of mormon peoples. People such as Onandagus and Zelph were not mentioned in the Book of Mormon but were at least descended from those people. The book of mormon itself claims that "not even a hundredth part" of the doings of the children of Lehi were recorded.

Later when he described "Central America" he was referring specifically to the book of Mormon.

but again. It is irrelevant to our current discussion. It's a separate debate altogether.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks to you two for demonstrating that your earlier comments in this thread are merely speculative and that a change in geographical distribution of Lehi's descendents will be coming from your church's historians.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Thanks to you two for demonstrating that your earlier comments in this thread are merely speculative and that a change in geographical distribution of Lehi's descendents will be coming from your church's historians.

I've said all along that the comments were speculative. However in light of the evidence shown, my opinion is that Book of Mormon events took place largely in Mesoamerica. Revelation on exact locations of cities is not on the priority list of God's revelations. He has much more pertinent information to reveal. We can connect those scientific dots on our own. But He wants us to focus on building character and keeping his commandments more than focusing on trivia.

We could know all the exact locations and he could unearth all the ancient artifacts we could ask for but still that wouldn't help any of his children come home to Him. Knowledge is trivia. Faith leads back to Heavenly Father and eternal certainty. You can't learn any faith from knowledge.

 

[Dr Gregg]

"joseph smith found a golden tab, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb"

 

[Douger]

I like Mormons.
Myself ? I'm a moron.
Marie swallows, so I'm good with that.

 

[Dr Gregg]

I like Mormons.
Myself ? I'm a moron.
Marie swallows, so I'm good with that.

They are really good people. I know someone who wasn't even a mormon and when his dad got very sick when he was a kid, all the mormons in the neighborhood came over to help out taking care of the kids, cooking meals, etc.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Re geographic distribution of Lehi's seed in the New World. Several pooh pooh'd the idea that the LDS church would have to be moving to a much more limited geography for the children of Lehi in the new world, instead of the general belief that the Native Americans are all their descedents. I told the nay sayers they were wrong. Any interested can read at Debate on Mormons' geographic origins heats up | Religion | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks to you two for demonstrating that your earlier comments in this thread are merely speculative and that a change in geographical distribution of Lehi's descendents will be coming from your church's historians.

I've said all along that the comments were speculative. However in light of the evidence shown, my opinion is that Book of Mormon events took place largely in Mesoamerica. Revelation on exact locations of cities is not on the priority list of God's revelations. He has much more pertinent information to reveal. We can connect those scientific dots on our own. But He wants us to focus on building character and keeping his commandments more than focusing on trivia.

We could know all the exact locations and he could unearth all the ancient artifacts we could ask for but still that wouldn't help any of his children come home to Him. Knowledge is trivia. Faith leads back to Heavenly Father and eternal certainty. You can't learn any faith from knowledge.

Then "the glory of God is knowledge" is trivia. Got it.

 

[Eightball]

Re geographic distribution of Lehi's seed in the New World. Several pooh pooh'd the idea that the LDS church would have to be moving to a much more limited geography for the children of Lehi in the new world, instead of the general belief that the Native Americans are all their descedents. I told the nay sayers they were wrong. Any interested can read at Debate on Mormons' geographic origins heats up | Religion | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

Yep, and double-yep.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Re geographic distribution of Lehi's seed in the New World. Several pooh pooh'd the idea that the LDS church would have to be moving to a much more limited geography for the children of Lehi in the new world, instead of the general belief that the Native Americans are all their descedents. I told the nay sayers they were wrong. Any interested can read at Debate on Mormons' geographic origins heats up | Religion | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

No archaeological evidence? Really? Again? Really? My how in just a few short weeks some can forget amazing things like:
1.horse bones dated to book of mormon times
2. Egyptian figurines found in Guatemala dated to Book of Mormon times.
3. Mayan culture said to have started around 500 BC(Nat. Geo. 2009) coincidentally similar to Book of Mormon times.
4. Archaeological sites dating to Book of Mormon times.
5. Quetzalcoatl legend exactly the same as Jesus christ's appearance in Book of Mormon.
6. Bedouin Arab literary writing style found in Joseph's writings.
7. The Lachish letters
8. The fortress of Lachish
9. The mound builders
10. Stella 5' vision of the tree of life
11. The Toltec Calendar stone(please call me out on it)
12. 12 steps leading to Mayan temples pinnacle representing the 12 disciples of Quetzalcoatl.
13.Algonkin legend of "Chee Zoos" sounds remarkably like Jesus
14. The statement of "steel bow" as described by Nephi.
15. Swords "stained" as indicated in the Book of Mormon.
16. Ritual of human sacrifice accurately described by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Mesoamerican history.
17. Accurate path described through Arabian dessert by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Bedouin culture and Arabian topography or geography.
18. The grave of Ishmael.
19. The Kentucky Egyptian style Mummies found
20. Every ancient pyramid built in America.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Thanks to you two for demonstrating that your earlier comments in this thread are merely speculative and that a change in geographical distribution of Lehi's descendents will be coming from your church's historians.

I've said all along that the comments were speculative. However in light of the evidence shown, my opinion is that Book of Mormon events took place largely in Mesoamerica. Revelation on exact locations of cities is not on the priority list of God's revelations. He has much more pertinent information to reveal. We can connect those scientific dots on our own. But He wants us to focus on building character and keeping his commandments more than focusing on trivia.

We could know all the exact locations and he could unearth all the ancient artifacts we could ask for but still that wouldn't help any of his children come home to Him. Knowledge is trivia. Faith leads back to Heavenly Father and eternal certainty. You can't learn any faith from knowledge.

Then "the glory of God is knowledge" is trivia. Got it.

don't go down a slippery slope now... We all know that man can be saved no faster than he gains knowledge. but trivial knowledge is different from eternal knowledge. Knowing when a rock from a castle is carbon dated is not going to give you a full knowledge of the people who once lived there.

Only if you excercise faith and test God, will he undoubtedly confirm knowledge to you. There are lots of things we can learn on our own. But they are all trivial if they don't teach us how to gain salvation.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I like Mormons.
Myself ? I'm a moron.
Marie swallows, so I'm good with that.

They are really good people. I know someone who wasn't even a mormon and when his dad got very sick when he was a kid, all the mormons in the neighborhood came over to help out taking care of the kids, cooking meals, etc.

There's a method to the "madness"

 

[JakeStarkey]

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

No archaeological evidence? Really? Again? Really? My how in just a few short weeks some can forget amazing things like:
1.horse bones dated to book of mormon times
2. Egyptian figurines found in Guatemala dated to Book of Mormon times.
3. Mayan culture said to have started around 500 BC(Nat. Geo. 2009) coincidentally similar to Book of Mormon times.
4. Archaeological sites dating to Book of Mormon times.
5. Quetzalcoatl legend exactly the same as Jesus christ's appearance in Book of Mormon.
6. Bedouin Arab literary writing style found in Joseph's writings.
7. The Lachish letters
8. The fortress of Lachish
9. The mound builders
10. Stella 5' vision of the tree of life
11. The Toltec Calendar stone(please call me out on it)
12. 12 steps leading to Mayan temples pinnacle representing the 12 disciples of Quetzalcoatl.
13.Algonkin legend of "Chee Zoos" sounds remarkably like Jesus
14. The statement of "steel bow" as described by Nephi.
15. Swords "stained" as indicated in the Book of Mormon.
16. Ritual of human sacrifice accurately described by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Mesoamerican history.
17. Accurate path described through Arabian dessert by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Bedouin culture and Arabian topography or geography.
18. The grave of Ishmael.
19. The Kentucky Egyptian style Mummies found
20. Every ancient pyramid built in America.

None of that is evidence, because none of it support the speculation. Just doesn't work. Don't believe me, then talk to the folks at archaeology at BYU, speaker, because you are dead wrong. Move along.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The United States East of the Mississippi? But there are no archeological ruins there to indicate there have ever been cities prior to modern times.

Moreover, where is the "narrow neck of land"?

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

Yep, and double-yep.

Ok wise guy, so you do realize their is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks, truthspeaker, for admitting that you are running on faith alone. That's OK, as long as you admit instead of play the pseudo-scientific games you simply can't win. Faith away!

 

[Truthspeaker]

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

No archaeological evidence? Really? Again? Really? My how in just a few short weeks some can forget amazing things like:
1.horse bones dated to book of mormon times
2. Egyptian figurines found in Guatemala dated to Book of Mormon times.
3. Mayan culture said to have started around 500 BC(Nat. Geo. 2009) coincidentally similar to Book of Mormon times.
4. Archaeological sites dating to Book of Mormon times.
5. Quetzalcoatl legend exactly the same as Jesus christ's appearance in Book of Mormon.
6. Bedouin Arab literary writing style found in Joseph's writings.
7. The Lachish letters
8. The fortress of Lachish
9. The mound builders
10. Stella 5' vision of the tree of life
11. The Toltec Calendar stone(please call me out on it)
12. 12 steps leading to Mayan temples pinnacle representing the 12 disciples of Quetzalcoatl.
13.Algonkin legend of "Chee Zoos" sounds remarkably like Jesus
14. The statement of "steel bow" as described by Nephi.
15. Swords "stained" as indicated in the Book of Mormon.
16. Ritual of human sacrifice accurately described by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Mesoamerican history.
17. Accurate path described through Arabian dessert by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Bedouin culture and Arabian topography or geography.
18. The grave of Ishmael.
19. The Kentucky Egyptian style Mummies found
20. Every ancient pyramid built in America.

None of that is evidence, because none of it support the speculation. Just doesn't work. Don't believe me, then talk to the folks at archaeology at BYU, speaker, because you are dead wrong. Move along.

And yet you didn't address a single one of those 20 points I brought up. How many more do you need? You don't have a clue how to respond to any of them so you just deflect. Great job You should be a dodgeball player and not a debater.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No archaeological evidence? Really? Again? Really? My how in just a few short weeks some can forget amazing things like:
1.horse bones dated to book of mormon times
2. Egyptian figurines found in Guatemala dated to Book of Mormon times.
3. Mayan culture said to have started around 500 BC(Nat. Geo. 2009) coincidentally similar to Book of Mormon times.
4. Archaeological sites dating to Book of Mormon times.
5. Quetzalcoatl legend exactly the same as Jesus christ's appearance in Book of Mormon.
6. Bedouin Arab literary writing style found in Joseph's writings.
7. The Lachish letters
8. The fortress of Lachish
9. The mound builders
10. Stella 5' vision of the tree of life
11. The Toltec Calendar stone(please call me out on it)
12. 12 steps leading to Mayan temples pinnacle representing the 12 disciples of Quetzalcoatl.
13.Algonkin legend of "Chee Zoos" sounds remarkably like Jesus
14. The statement of "steel bow" as described by Nephi.
15. Swords "stained" as indicated in the Book of Mormon.
16. Ritual of human sacrifice accurately described by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Mesoamerican history.
17. Accurate path described through Arabian dessert by a farmboy who had less than zero knowledge of Bedouin culture and Arabian topography or geography.
18. The grave of Ishmael.
19. The Kentucky Egyptian style Mummies found
20. Every ancient pyramid built in America.

None of that is evidence, because none of it support the speculation. Just doesn't work. Don't believe me, then talk to the folks at archaeology at BYU, speaker, because you are dead wrong. Move along.

And yet you didn't address a single one of those 20 points I brought up. How many more do you need? You don't have a clue how to respond to any of them so you just deflect. Great job You should be a dodgeball player and not a debater.

They are only a list, truth, nothing more: no evidence, no connections, no nothing. Just a bunch of words not linked to support, son.