The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Thanks, truthspeaker, for admitting that you are running on faith alone. That's OK, as long as you admit instead of play the pseudo-scientific games you simply can't win. Faith away!

I think you think I'm talking about the exodus of Lehi and his company from Jerusalem to the New World. I was clearly, however, talking about the famous exodus led by Moses through the red sea and the 40 years of wilderness wandering.

I officially stated that like bread alone, I do not live by faith alone. I have knowledge of what church's teachings claim.

I'm not trying to tear down anyone else's religion. Simply stating that I know mine is true. You should all feel the same way about your religions. Even the religion of irreligion.

 

[Valerie]

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

Yep, and double-yep.

Ok wise guy, so you do realize there is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

>

IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt

 

[Truthspeaker]

None of that is evidence, because none of it support the speculation. Just doesn't work. Don't believe me, then talk to the folks at archaeology at BYU, speaker, because you are dead wrong. Move along.

And yet you didn't address a single one of those 20 points I brought up. How many more do you need? You don't have a clue how to respond to any of them so you just deflect. Great job You should be a dodgeball player and not a debater.

They are only a list, truth, nothing more: no evidence, no connections, no nothing. Just a bunch of words not linked to support, son.

Which one would you like me to support with links first? Please call me out on each and every one of them one at a time. Which one first?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yep, and double-yep.

Ok wise guy, so you do realize there is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

>

IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt

Very interesting. I skimmed through the site and would be happy to read it later since it is so long. Do you know where these artifacts were found? When were they found? If it was very recently then you would see my point. For thousands of years this evidence was not known to science. But as time goes by, the faith of those who always believed is ratified. some may have even known although the scientific evidence may not have been found. Much of the Scientific community would still dismiss this evidence as inconclusive, even if it is evidenciary.

Now with these shards and stellae being used as evidence for the Bible, why wouldn't the same type of evidence be admitted for the Book of Mormon? I can show pictures and stellae as well for the book of mormon. More and more will continue to manifest themselves to the point where The Book of Mormon will become undeniable. But sadly, by then it will be too late. for faith was never excercised.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Go ahead and show the connections scientifically if you can, truth. That is all anyone can ask for. But please don't think lists make evidence.

 

[nraforlife]

Y'all claim Joseph Smith as a Prophet. True? Turns out the bulk of his 'prophecy' turned out to be hot air. Sooooo then are you surprised that he ended up getting what God Says should be dealt to false prophets?

 

[Eightball]

There is no archaeological evidence, period, to clearly indicate any support for BoM geography.

Yep, and double-yep.

Ok wise guy, so you do realize their is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

Oh...........we can't find the Egyptian Army stuff in the Red or "Reed" Sea area? Oh........here we go with the "Straw Man" defense.

Biblical archeology has been unearthing myriads of artifacts in the Middle East that substantiate both OT and NT historicity.

Not one little iota of substantiated evidence confirming Book of Mormon ancient N. American/S. American historicity is or has been found.

Faith?...........Faith needs to be based on evidences or sound data. Both Jewish, Christian, and secular archeology has proven over and over again the accuracy of the OT and NT accounts.

You pick the chariots of the Red Sea exodus and it's "non find" as a defense for an entire religion with not one iota of creedence or support for it's book of faith............Namely the "book of Mormon".

One episode in the OT that archeological evidence hasn't unearthed, to defend an entire history of and you use that as your defense?

This is laughable if it wasn't so sad...................Truth.....You fill the perfect qualifications of a cultist. You believe, because you "want" to believe...........Faith is based on evidences, or proofs.

The bible is the most published/printed piece of literary work in the world.

Wonder why? I'm sure you have a good old Mormon defense for that statistic.

I trully believe that one day Truth, you will see the light, and it will be the kind of light that is substantiated by the Word of God.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God..."Not by burning bosums, dreams, nor asking the Mormon "g"od if "h"e is the real and true "G"od.


Celestial sex(Mormon teaching)...................77 Virgins to ravage(Islamic teaching).????????????????????????????????? Hmmm?...similar finger or foot prints. Wonder who author'd this striking similarity............?

 

[Skeptik]

Yep, and double-yep.

Ok wise guy, so you do realize their is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

Oh...........we can't find the Egyptian Army stuff in the Red or "Reed" Sea area? Oh........here we go with the "Straw Man" defense.

Biblical archeology has been unearthing myriads of artifacts in the Middle East that substantiate both OT and NT historicity.

Not one little iota of substantiated evidence confirming Book of Mormon ancient N. American/S. American historicity is or has been found.

Faith?...........Faith needs to be based on evidences or sound data. Both Jewish, Christian, and secular archeology has proven over and over again the accuracy of the OT and NT accounts.

You pick the chariots of the Red Sea exodus and it's "non find" as a defense for an entire religion with not one iota of creedence or support for it's book of faith............Namely the "book of Mormon".

One episode in the OT that archeological evidence hasn't unearthed, to defend an entire history of and you use that as your defense?

This is laughable if it wasn't so sad...................Truth.....You fill the perfect qualifications of a cultist. You believe, because you "want" to believe...........Faith is based on evidences, or proofs.

The bible is the most published/printed piece of literary work in the world.

Wonder why? I'm sure you have a good old Mormon defense for that statistic.

I trully believe that one day Truth, you will see the light, and it will be the kind of light that is substantiated by the Word of God.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God..."Not by burning bosums, dreams, nor asking the Mormon "g"od if "h"e is the real and true "G"od.


Celestial sex(Mormon teaching)...................77 Virgins to ravage(Islamic teaching).????????????????????????????????? Hmmm?...similar finger or foot prints. Wonder who author'd this striking similarity............?

Well, there is some evidence for some of the stories in the Bible, as you said. At least part of the Exodus story, for example, is based on real history, although some was made up after the children of Israel were taken to Babylon.

Other stories in the Bible, particularly in the OT are simply stories. The notion that there could have actually been a universal flood, for example, is not something to be taken as historical fact. There are remains of chariots, of course, but none at the bottom of the Red Sea. Much of the Bible is simply tall tales and fables.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ok wise guy, so you do realize their is no scientific evidence of the exodus right? Not a single shard. Not a single chariot has been found at the bottom of the red sea. No egyptian artifacts. Nothing left behind by the Jews in 40 years of desert roaming. How do you justify to the secular minded person that it ever did happen?

I have my justifications. What are yours? Hear me now! all who have ears to hear or eyes to read. 8-ball will refuse to answer this question. It would take a true miracle for him to directly respond to this statement.

Oh...........we can't find the Egyptian Army stuff in the Red or "Reed" Sea area? Oh........here we go with the "Straw Man" defense.

Biblical archeology has been unearthing myriads of artifacts in the Middle East that substantiate both OT and NT historicity.

Not one little iota of substantiated evidence confirming Book of Mormon ancient N. American/S. American historicity is or has been found.

Faith?...........Faith needs to be based on evidences or sound data. Both Jewish, Christian, and secular archeology has proven over and over again the accuracy of the OT and NT accounts.

You pick the chariots of the Red Sea exodus and it's "non find" as a defense for an entire religion with not one iota of creedence or support for it's book of faith............Namely the "book of Mormon".

One episode in the OT that archeological evidence hasn't unearthed, to defend an entire history of and you use that as your defense?

This is laughable if it wasn't so sad...................Truth.....You fill the perfect qualifications of a cultist. You believe, because you "want" to believe...........Faith is based on evidences, or proofs.

The bible is the most published/printed piece of literary work in the world.

Wonder why? I'm sure you have a good old Mormon defense for that statistic.

I trully believe that one day Truth, you will see the light, and it will be the kind of light that is substantiated by the Word of God.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God..."Not by burning bosums, dreams, nor asking the Mormon "g"od if "h"e is the real and true "G"od.


Celestial sex(Mormon teaching)...................77 Virgins to ravage(Islamic teaching).????????????????????????????????? Hmmm?...similar finger or foot prints. Wonder who author'd this striking similarity............?

Well, there is some evidence for some of the stories in the Bible, as you said. At least part of the Exodus story, for example, is based on real history, although some was made up after the children of Israel were taken to Babylon.

Other stories in the Bible, particularly in the OT are simply stories. The notion that there could have actually been a universal flood, for example, is not something to be taken as historical fact. There are remains of chariots, of course, but none at the bottom of the Red Sea. Much of the Bible is simply tall tales and fables.

Much of the OT is indeed myth and creation stories for an explanation of an unique people. I suggest that much of the BoM "is simply tall tales and fables," but a story that I nevertheless enjoy reading. JS has always gotten the short end when it comes to his credit and the BoM.

 

[Sublimating]

Why do Mormons try to convert Christians, I mean what do they think Christians need to do other have faith in Christ, repent and be baptized and born again of the holy spirit and follow the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Do they teach that there are some other requirements and if so what are they?

I have more questions but I'll start with this one.

 

[Avatar4321]

Go ahead and show the connections scientifically if you can, truth. That is all anyone can ask for. But please don't think lists make evidence.

I suggest you look up the definition of evidence.

Evidence doesn't have to be strong or overwhelming in order to be evidence. In fac,t evidence can be fairly weak. But weak evidence is evidence nonetheless.

Here I am not assessing any part of the list TS provided. Quite honestly, I don't particularly care about it. My decision to believe in Jesus Christ and His Church comes because of the Whisperings of the Holy Ghost and not due to archaelogy. I've seen more than enough in my own researching to convince me it's correct.

However, i hate when people pretend as though evidence doesnt exist simply because they don't believe it. It's dishonest. So I figured I'd speak up.

 

[Avatar4321]

Y'all claim Joseph Smith as a Prophet. True? Turns out the bulk of his 'prophecy' turned out to be hot air. Sooooo then are you surprised that he ended up getting what God Says should be dealt to false prophets?

I've found his prophecies have been fairly accurate. How many people predicted where the beginning of the Civil War happened 30 years before it starts? How many people knew Stephen A Douglas would seek to become President and be crushed if he spoke evil of the Saints 20 years before it happened? Or prophecied that the Book of Enoch would decades before it was found? Or accurately predict their death?

Then, of course, there are the Book of Mormon prophecies. Which, while technically not made by Joseph, if he made the book up, he was pretty lucky with as accurate as they are.

I've also found that most people who say that his prophecies havent been fulfilled are generally mistaken as to what a prophecy, when a prophecy is conditional, and completely ignore when it's been fulfilled.

But hey. Belieive what you want. Ill trust what the Lord has told me and what I've read for myself.

 

[Avatar4321]

Oh...........we can't find the Egyptian Army stuff in the Red or "Reed" Sea area? Oh........here we go with the "Straw Man" defense.

Stop using straw men then.

Biblical archeology has been unearthing myriads of artifacts in the Middle East that substantiate both OT and NT historicity.

Sighs. You don't get it do you? Archaelogy doesnt prove jack. It can't prove the resurrection and that's one of the center points of the Gospel.

No one disputes that the places mentioned in the Bible are real. Why would they? It's an ancient document. Finding sites doesnt prove it any more than finding the sites in the Oddysey prove that the greek gods existed.

No. Evidence of the scriptures must come from the Spirit of Truth. How else can you know the Doctrine of Christ if not by the whispering of the Holy Spirit? You think archaelogy can prove the Doctrine of Christ? I don't. You don't know the Doctrines until you have lived them and searched through them. You learn of the Spirit by the Spirit.

Not one little iota of substantiated evidence confirming Book of Mormon ancient N. American/S. American historicity is or has been found.

Keep telling yourself that. Let's just ignore NHM and Bountiful.

Faith?...........Faith needs to be based on evidences or sound data. Both Jewish, Christian, and secular archeology has proven over and over again the accuracy of the OT and NT accounts.

Show me the archaelogy that has proved the Resurrection. I dont think you can. Yet it is real. It's more real than anything archaelogy can every substantiate.

You pick the chariots of the Red Sea exodus and it's "non find" as a defense for an entire religion with not one iota of creedence or support for it's book of faith............Namely the "book of Mormon".

Not one iota of creedence or support? I understand disagreeing with it. But why lie about it? You don't have to believe the evidence, but pretending it isnt there is just dishonest.

One episode in the OT that archeological evidence hasn't unearthed, to defend an entire history of and you use that as your defense?

That one episode shows the complete inconsistancy in your argument. You want to say that it's true despite being archaelogy hasnt been unearth. Yet you want to say the Book of Mormon isn't true because Archaelogy hasnt been unearthed (completely untrue, but that's still your argument).

You can't have it both ways. Arguments from silence don't prove anything is untrue, It just proves we dont have enough information.

But then as I've pointed out, you still have the NHM and Bountiful issues that you pretend don't exist. How does a 24 year old with no formal education describe a route through Arabia perfectly including names and descriptions of places that actually exist and that were completely unknown at the time it was written? I haven't heard a credible answer to that.

This is laughable if it wasn't so sad...................Truth.....You fill the perfect qualifications of a cultist. You believe, because you "want" to believe...........Faith is based on evidences, or proofs.

Faith is a gift from God the Father. It comes from knowing His will and having the courage to live it. It doesnt come from any sort of science.

The bible is the most published/printed piece of literary work in the world.

Completely irrelevant. Besides, I dont read the Bible because it's a literary work. I read it because it contains the words of Christ.

Wonder why? I'm sure you have a good old Mormon defense for that statistic.

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to link the fact that Christian societies were the first ones to really use the printing press and the Bible was the book that most Christians would want to read. Not to mention that the Bible was made available to literate people for nearly 300 years more than the Book of Mormon.

Not to mention the Book of Mormon encourages it's readers to read the Bible.

As I've said your point is completely irrelevant and easy to understand with some common sense analysis.

I trully believe that one day Truth, you will see the light, and it will be the kind of light that is substantiated by the Word of God.

And I believe that one day you will see the Light. Because you just aren't getting it right now. And it has nothing to do with your belief or lack of belief in the Book of Mormon and your complete reliance

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God..."Not by burning bosums, dreams, nor asking the Mormon "g"od if "h"e is the real and true "G"od.

You really should read Luke sometime.

Celestial sex(Mormon teaching)...................77 Virgins to ravage(Islamic teaching).????????????????????????????????? Hmmm?...similar finger or foot prints. Wonder who author'd this striking similarity............?

What exactly is evil about sex?

 

[Avatar4321]

Why do Mormons try to convert Christians, I mean what do they think Christians need to do other have faith in Christ, repent and be baptized and born again of the holy spirit and follow the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Do they teach that there are some other requirements and if so what are they?

I have more questions but I'll start with this one.

I think you've summed them up rather succinctly. Exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Repent of your sins. Be baptized by water and recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost as done in the NT.

But recieving the Holy Ghost is only the beginning of our walk with Christ. It seems silly to accept Christ and then when He wants to bless you with more, you tell Him "No, I have enough." Id like everything God wants to bless me with. And that is what the Church of Jesus Christ does. We invite people to walk closer to Christ. We are trying to help bad men become good and good men become better. Christ raises the standard of living for people.

If God wants to give you more scripture, why fight it? Why wouldnt you want every single revelation from God you can get your hands on? I want to know Christ. And I want to learn as much as i can from reading and through personal experiences with Him.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You already have all blessings in Christ, Avatar, if you are a true believer. No church or priesthood needs to mediate between man and god. His grace is sufficient for each and every one of us.

Beforre you get started on grace, you better understand election and sanctification.

 

[nraforlife]

........................
I've found his prophecies have been fairly accurate. How many people predicted where the beginning of the Civil War happened 30 years before it starts? ..............QUOTE]




The prophecy given 25 December 1832 reads:

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. (D&C 87:1-8)


this is what the JS 'prophecy' was referring to. Old JS was just indulging in a bit of newspaper fueled pontificating which turned out 99.9% wrongunless spun at more than 100,000,000 rpm

On July 14, 1832, after Calhoun had resigned his office in order to run for the Senate where he could more effectively defend nullification[4], Jackson signed into law the Tariff of 1832. This compromise tariff received the support of most northerners and half of the southerners in Congress.[5] The reductions were too little for South Carolina, and in November 1832 a state convention declared that the tariffs of both 1828 and 1832 were unconstitutional and unenforceable in South Carolina after February 1, 1833. Military preparations to resist anticipated federal enforcement were initiated by the state.[6] In late February both a Force Bill, authorizing the President to use military force against South Carolina, and a new negotiated tariff satisfactory to South Carolina were passed by Congress. The South Carolina convention reconvened and repealed its Nullification Ordinance on March 11, 1833.

Nullification Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sublimating]

Why do Mormons try to convert Christians, I mean what do they think Christians need to do other have faith in Christ, repent and be baptized and born again of the holy spirit and follow the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Do they teach that there are some other requirements and if so what are they?

I have more questions but I'll start with this one.

I think you've summed them up rather succinctly. Exercise faith in Jesus Christ. Repent of your sins. Be baptized by water and recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost as done in the NT.

But recieving the Holy Ghost is only the beginning of our walk with Christ. It seems silly to accept Christ and then when He wants to bless you with more, you tell Him "No, I have enough." Id like everything God wants to bless me with. And that is what the Church of Jesus Christ does. We invite people to walk closer to Christ. We are trying to help bad men become good and good men become better. Christ raises the standard of living for people.

If God wants to give you more scripture, why fight it? Why wouldnt you want every single revelation from God you can get your hands on? I want to know Christ. And I want to learn as much as i can from reading and through personal experiences with Him.

I would never refuse the blessings of Christ. I read everyday and pray. I also attend church services as much as my health allows. I've been doing great since I was born again but I ran into some Mormons who implied that I wasn't doing all that the father would have me do. Just curious...thanks.

 

[Sublimating]

You already have all blessings in Christ, Avatar, if you are a true believer. No church or priesthood needs to mediate between man and god. His grace is sufficient for each and every one of us.

Beforre you get started on grace, you better understand election and sanctification.

Is this what Mormons teach...that Christians need another man or a priest? Kind of like being Catholic...?

 

[JakeStarkey]

........................
I've found his prophecies have been fairly accurate. How many people predicted where the beginning of the Civil War happened 30 years before it starts? ..............QUOTE]




The prophecy given 25 December 1832 reads:

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. (D&C 87:1-8)


this is what the JS 'prophecy' was referring to. Old JS was just indulging in a bit of newspaper fueled pontificating which turned out 99.9% wrongunless spun at more than 100,000,000 rpm

On July 14, 1832, after Calhoun had resigned his office in order to run for the Senate where he could more effectively defend nullification[4], Jackson signed into law the Tariff of 1832. This compromise tariff received the support of most northerners and half of the southerners in Congress.[5] The reductions were too little for South Carolina, and in November 1832 a state convention declared that the tariffs of both 1828 and 1832 were unconstitutional and unenforceable in South Carolina after February 1, 1833. Military preparations to resist anticipated federal enforcement were initiated by the state.[6] In late February both a Force Bill, authorizing the President to use military force against South Carolina, and a new negotiated tariff satisfactory to South Carolina were passed by Congress. The South Carolina convention reconvened and repealed its Nullification Ordinance on March 11, 1833.

Nullification Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sigh. How many other Americans were predicting Civil War in 1832 as the South was once again acting stupid? JS was one of many talking about right then, not 29 years in the future. Your context historically is wrong.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You already have all blessings in Christ, Avatar, if you are a true believer. No church or priesthood needs to mediate between man and god. His grace is sufficient for each and every one of us.

Beforre you get started on grace, you better understand election and sanctification.

Is this what Mormons teach...that Christians need another man or a priest? Kind of like being Catholic...?

In an alternate universe sort of way as the Catholics, but I certainly don't doubt the sincerity of either LDS or Catholics. Nice people, bad people, just like the rest of us.