The True Root of All Evil...

[KevinWestern]

Not too self righteous, are we?

Here's a little parable for you:

That is certainly not my intention.

But may I ask, how did you derive that from me starting a thread about selfishness being the root of all evil? In this post of mine you quoted, I asked "what would the world be like if everyone was completely unselfish"? I don't think that's "self righteous", but I may be wrong.

I've clearly stated that I'm far from an unselfish person, and that I (like most others) have a long, long way to go.

 

[KevinWestern]

No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.

Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?

Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly.

This passage, I believe, is from the Christian Bible...

PHILIPPIANS 2:3-4
Selfishness, not hate, is the opposite of divine love.

Kinda interesting, huh? Selfishness isn't the symptom, it IS the actual problem (as Jesus taught).



.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why do we lust RKM? Lust is an uncontrolled craving for making oneself "feel good". How is that not a selfish activity?

Again, it's actually interesting you brought up the 7 deadly sins because every single one is clearly traceable to selfish roots.

Ayup... and one could also argue that anything is traceable to anything within a certain number of degrees. Call it the kevin bacon effect.

Well, if that's the case it should be no problem tracing back greed - for instance - to complete unselfish love for all things.

Can you?

To easy: Greed the desire to accumulate things... love, the deep attraction one has for the companionship provided by another. Early on children learn that if they want to accumulate things they need to receive things from others. For example, gifts given at christmas. More particularly one finds out that if they are selfless others will be selfless in return showering them with gifts. Thus through learning the greedy learn to be completely unselfish in their love for all things... results in massive accumulation of things. The more you give the more they and others give back. Aka. the heaven complex.

Parable. Heaven and hell, at dinner everyone is seated at a table in front of a banquet of food, but your arms are extended in front of you to where you can't feed yourself. In hell everyone is starving. In heaven everyone is feeding each other.

 

[RKMBrown]

No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.

Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?

Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).


.

Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?

 

[RKMBrown]

No dear.
I actually know what a strawman is, and his argument wasn't one.
You on the other hand changed the goalposts when the rest of us were talking about the root of a concept and you cite linguistics, a complete and utter tangent that was completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I'll go real slow fer ya, cause you seem nice and lost

The statement "widgets are the root of all evil because they are" is my strawman.
The statement "selfishness is the root of all evil because they are" is the OP's strawman.

As to the root of words in linguistics being a slight deflection. Duh I suppose you could say I was being selfish.

My proof that the very same desires could root from self-less acts, being ignored. Gave me the motive for selfish revenge

Neither of those are strawman arguments.
They are circular reasoning.
Do you know what a strawman is?

yes I do. About time someone figured it out. Yes, I was the one using a strawman to show why the circular argument was false. Guilty. More importantly the discussion has moved somewhat to the metaphysical realm from which said desires actually derive, and away from the argument that all sin is based on selfishness because it is.

 

[KevinWestern]

No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.

Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?

Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).


.

Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?

It is absolutely possible for a man to become totally selfless. Just extremely difficult and requires a person to have complete control over their emotions. I definitely can't speak from experience on this, lol.

 

[RKMBrown]

Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?

Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).


.

Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?

It is absolutely possible for a man to become totally selfless. Just extremely difficult and requires a person to have complete control over their emotions. I definitely can't speak from experience on this, lol.

Agreed. More to the point, even those that can sometimes fail again and again.

Just as you believe it to be possible, but extremely difficult to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone. I also believe it to be possible, but extremely difficult for the seven deadly sins to originate not from selfishness, but by will alone. This using the apparent definition of selflessness as a biological decision made by our brains for our benefit instead of soulful decision that may be in conflict with our body's desires.

IOW I agree with your op for the majority of biologic based decisions but also believe our souls are capable of much more, I believe we are capable of doing the extremely difficult.

You should try it sometime. You may find it enlightening. I've learned to do a great many things that I would not have thought possible. For example, on command I can make the hair stand up on my arms by commanding my body to generate adrenaline. Simple example, but it shows that you can have command over your body, and not be driven by it. Once you learn to separate soul from body... a great many things become possible.

 

[KevinWestern]

To easy: Greed the desire to accumulate things... love, the deep attraction one has for the companionship provided by another.

Are you sure you’re describing wholly unselfish love here RKM? “Deep attraction for companionship”? Is that truly selfless or are you – instead - seeking companionship to fulfill one’s own personal needs?

Early on children learn that if they want to accumulate things they need to receive things from others. For example, gifts given at christmas. More particularly one finds out that if they are selfless others will be selfless in return showering them with gifts. Thus through learning the greedy learn to be completely unselfish in their love for all things... results in massive accumulation of things.

Giving with the EXPECTATION that you will receive something back is definitely, definitely not unselfish love. In your scenario, if the child knew he wasn't going to receive any gifts for HIMSELF, he would never give in the first place! You're describing a selfish activity here; I do X not because it betters the whole but rather because it leads to ME receiving Y for MYSELF.

The more you give the more they and others give back. Aka. the heaven complex.

Children must learn to give with no expectation to receive anything in return. That is true love (because you're truly doing something for someone else and not yourself). And again, “selflessness” is not giving with the expectation of getting something back.

 

[KevinWestern]

but also believe our souls are capable of much more, I believe we are capable of doing the extremely difficult.

Why don't you think I believe this as well?

 

[RKMBrown]

To easy: Greed the desire to accumulate things... love, the deep attraction one has for the companionship provided by another.

Are you sure you’re describing wholly unselfish love here RKM? “Deep attraction for companionship”? Is that truly selfless or are you – instead - seeking companionship to fulfill one’s own personal needs?

Early on children learn that if they want to accumulate things they need to receive things from others. For example, gifts given at christmas. More particularly one finds out that if they are selfless others will be selfless in return showering them with gifts. Thus through learning the greedy learn to be completely unselfish in their love for all things... results in massive accumulation of things.

Giving with the EXPECTATION that you will receive something back is definitely, definitely not unselfish love. In your scenario, if the child knew he wasn't going to receive any gifts for HIMSELF, he would never give in the first place! You're describing a selfish activity here; I do X not because it betters the whole but rather because it leads to ME receiving Y for MYSELF.

The more you give the more they and others give back. Aka. the heaven complex.

Children must learn to give with no expectation to receive anything in return. That is true love (because you're truly doing something for someone else and not yourself). And again, “selflessness” is not giving with the expectation of getting something back.

The request was to tie greed... I suppose you could provide the definition of the terms you want me to tie together, rather than me defining and tying them together.

 

[RKMBrown]

but also believe our souls are capable of much more, I believe we are capable of doing the extremely difficult.

Why don't you think I believe this as well?

I do believe you think so as well. But, you did leave that part out of the OP.

IOW the true root of all evil is not selfishness, but choosing selfishness over selflessness by will alone vs. merely following biologic desires. I would have been satisfied and agreed with that as the OP's argument. That my friend is true evil. Knowing what you are doing is pure selfishness, knowing it and still doing it. Not just merely following biologic desires, but more to the point, when you realize it's just a biologic desire and you may be harming others by following... yet you do it anyways for your own selfish desire instead of choosing the selfless route.. yeah there you go. IOW you choose to eat steak when you are full anyway and know your neighbor is going hungry that night. Yeah that's evil. If you are both hungry, cut it in half and share. Simple concept.

 

[KevinWestern]

The request was to tie greed... I suppose you could provide the definition of the terms you want me to tie together, rather than me defining and tying them together.

Let me clarify. The request is to show unselfish love being the ROOT of someone being “greedy”. I don’t think it’s possible, by the way.

It’s easy to demonstrate that selfishness being at the root of greed; take for instance a man who cares only about making as much money as possible with no regard to the repercussions to others or the whole. He’s accumulating money for the sake of accumulating money (because it gives him pleasure, either from the things he can buy or the power it brings).

But an unselfishly loving man? What would be his purpose to accumulate money for the sake of accumulating money? He would only need EXACTLY as much money it would take to maximize his effectiveness on making the world a better place for all. Greed serves no purpose for this person, because they do not focus on their own personal pleasures.

 

[KevinWestern]

I do believe you think so as well. But, you did leave that part out of the OP.

IOW the true root of all evil is not selfishness, but choosing selfishness over selflessness by will alone vs. merely following biologic desires. I would have been satisfied and agreed with that as the OP's argument. That my friend is true evil. Knowing what you are doing is pure selfishness, knowing it and still doing it. Not just merely following biologic desires, but more to the point, when you realize it's just a biologic desire and you may be harming others by following... yet you do it anyways for your own selfish desire instead of choosing the selfless route.. yeah there you go. IOW you choose to eat steak when you are full anyway and know your neighbor is going hungry that night. Yeah that's evil.

Ok, so we’re at some common ground here. I think we agree on the general concept. That's cool

But you’re kind of saying that as long as you don’t realize you’re being selfish, then it’s not bad. I don’t think that’s the case. While I think it’s much “eviler” for a person to be wholly aware of his/her selfishness and indulge in it, the person who is ignorant is still doing the world harm. That's an inescapable fact. A man who drinks water freely and abundantly but doesn't realize that it's depleting a source that others rely on is STILL creating a problem.

This is when it goes into the spiritual discussion. We think we're all separate parts, and when we are unenlightened we are unable to know (in our physical bodies) what others are doing or thinking so obviously these occurrences happen all the time.

We may differ here, but I believe that it’s possible – but rare – to transcend the ego (through meditation, spiritual evolution) and elevate your thinking to a higher plane where you are tuned into, and guided (much as Christians say “by the hand of God&#8221 to the universal consciousness. If we can do this, we (through this universal guidance) will know not to consume the water beyond what we need (in the example above). I believe Jesus reached this height, the Buddha, and many others throughout history.

Again, I can’t describe it personally – it’s never happened to me – however these occurrences have been recorded all throughout history in practically every major world culture.

 

[RKMBrown]

The request was to tie greed... I suppose you could provide the definition of the terms you want me to tie together, rather than me defining and tying them together.

Let me clarify. The request is to show unselfish love being the ROOT of someone being “greedy”. I don’t think it’s possible, by the way.

It’s easy to demonstrate that selfishness being at the root of greed; take for instance a man who cares only about making as much money as possible with no regard to the repercussions to others or the whole. He’s accumulating money for the sake of accumulating money (because it gives him pleasure, either from the things he can buy or the power it brings).

But an unselfishly loving man? What would be his purpose to accumulate money for the sake of accumulating money? He would only need EXACTLY as much money it would take to maximize his effectiveness on making the world a better place for all. Greed serves no purpose for this person, because they do not focus on their own personal pleasures.

That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.

 

[RKMBrown]

I do believe you think so as well. But, you did leave that part out of the OP.

IOW the true root of all evil is not selfishness, but choosing selfishness over selflessness by will alone vs. merely following biologic desires. I would have been satisfied and agreed with that as the OP's argument. That my friend is true evil. Knowing what you are doing is pure selfishness, knowing it and still doing it. Not just merely following biologic desires, but more to the point, when you realize it's just a biologic desire and you may be harming others by following... yet you do it anyways for your own selfish desire instead of choosing the selfless route.. yeah there you go. IOW you choose to eat steak when you are full anyway and know your neighbor is going hungry that night. Yeah that's evil.

Ok, so we’re at some common ground here. I think we agree on the general concept. That's cool

But you’re kind of saying that as long as you don’t realize you’re being selfish, then it’s not bad. I don’t think that’s the case. While I think it’s much “eviler” for a person to be wholly aware of his/her selfishness and indulge in it, the person who is ignorant is still doing the world harm.

We may differ here, but I believe that it’s possible – but rare – to transcend the ego (through meditation, spiritual evolution) and elevate your thinking to a higher plane where you are tuned into, and guided (much as Christians say “by the hand of God&#8221 to the universal consciousness. I believe Jesus reached this height, the Buddha, and many others throughout history.

Again, I can’t describe it personally – it’s never happened to me – however these occurrences have been recorded all throughout history in practically every major world culture.

That you can consider it possible... means you are on the road. I separate bad decisions from evil decisions. I separate doing harm on accident or by coincidence or ignorance, from doing harm on purpose, perhaps even enjoying the harm done to others for your benefit.

Running over a kid on accident is not the same as doing it on purpose, one is stupid and regretful, the other true evil. Choosing to run over a kid to save yourself.. same thing true evil. Making a selfish choice that in hindsight results in the kid getting run over.. not true evil.

 

[KevinWestern]

That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.

Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish. Greed is the sin the child is guilty of, and the child's selfishness is at the root.

Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?

I think the answer to that question is important.

 

[KevinWestern]

That you can consider it possible... means you are on the road. I separate bad decisions from evil decisions. I separate doing harm on accident or by coincidence or ignorance, from doing harm on purpose, perhaps even enjoying the harm done to others for your benefit.

Running over a kid on accident is not the same as doing it on purpose, one is stupid and regretful, the other true evil. Choosing to run over a kid to save yourself.. same thing true evil. Making a selfish choice that in hindsight results in the kid getting run over.. not true evil.

But again, although we disagree here a bit, I think we can both agree that we should all strive to live our lives as unselfishly as possible.

That would solve a great deal of the world's problems.

And here’s when the spiritual stuff comes into play; if we had a means to tap into everyone else's consciousness and become One, that would solve ALL of the world's problems. We could see the repercussions of every single one of our actions, and would only take actions that would result in the best outcome for the whole. Again, is this something I know how to achieve? Absolutely not, lol.

 

[RKMBrown]

That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.

Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish.

Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?

I think the answer to that question is important.

You defined the terms I tied them together. The child's selfishness is the result of the parents unselfish love. Thus unselfish love of one person led to selfishness in another and showing itself in the form of greed and other undesirable traits in the child. IOW the apple got pulled from the tree.

Your new definition is circular. You are asking me if no one is selfish how can anyone be selfish. It's circular.

 

[KevinWestern]

That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.

Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish.

Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?

I think the answer to that question is important.

You defined the terms I tied them together. The child's selfishness is the result of the parents unselfish love. Thus unselfish love of one person led to selfishness in another and showing itself in the form of greed and other undesirable traits in the child. IOW the apple got pulled from the tree.

Your new definition is circular. You are asking me if no one is selfish how can anyone be selfish. It's circular.

But RKM, if everyone on the planet was completely and utterly unselfish, in what form would greed exist? How could it exist?

If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be greedy. That's a fact.
If you are an unselfish person in every way imaginable, you are not going to be a glutton, or a sloth, or envious. That is a fact.

Selfishness is the root of those evils because in the absence of selfishness they do not exist.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

That you can consider it possible... means you are on the road. I separate bad decisions from evil decisions. I separate doing harm on accident or by coincidence or ignorance, from doing harm on purpose, perhaps even enjoying the harm done to others for your benefit.

Running over a kid on accident is not the same as doing it on purpose, one is stupid and regretful, the other true evil. Choosing to run over a kid to save yourself.. same thing true evil. Making a selfish choice that in hindsight results in the kid getting run over.. not true evil.

But again, although we disagree here a bit, I think we can both agree that we should all strive to live our lives as unselfishly as possible. <Yes, and as you say that is extremely hard.>

That would solve a great deal of the world's problems. <Perhaps, being completely selfless and loving sometimes results in bad things. Sometimes you have to be hard on someone to teach them right from wrong.>

And here&#8217;s when the spiritual stuff comes into play; if we had a means to tap into everyone else's consciousness and become One, that would solve ALL of the world's problems.
<Or it would cause the end times when we expose true evil.>

We could see the repercussions of every single one of our actions, and would only take actions that would result in the best outcome for the whole.
<I don't assume that everyone would make good decisions for the whole. Sadly, I think some would choose hell over the heaven you describe.>

Again, is this something I know how to achieve? Absolutely not, lol.

Again, that you ask the question means you are on the road. You already know how to achieve that which you seek, you just have to believe it and do it.