The Root of the Problem.

[Hum Dinger]

The root cause of this whole mess is the obscene wealth distribution in this country.

While executives compensation has been soaring beyond belief. Workers wages have been frozen for years.

Imagine if all those people that took out sub-prime mortgages had had something called a "RAISE" every now and then? There wouldn't have been a sub-prime mortgage crisis. There wouldn't have been a real estate crash.

Anti-inflation obsession has been the right-wing economists excuse for holding workers wages down at all costs. Yet during the years of highest inflation (1960s & 70s), the gap between the rich and the poor narrowed. We had a evry robust economy.

Economic for and by the wealthy wil always end in disaster.

 

[Bern80]

The root cause of this whole mess is the obscene wealth distribution in this country.

While executives compensation has been soaring beyond belief. Workers wages have been frozen for years.

Imagine if all those people that took out sub-prime mortgages had had something called a "RAISE" every now and then? There wouldn't have been a sub-prime mortgage crisis. There wouldn't have been a real estate crash.

Anti-inflation obsession has been the right-wing economists excuse for holding workers wages down at all costs. Yet during the years of highest inflation (1960s & 70s), the gap between the rich and the poor narrowed. We had a evry robust economy.

Economic for and by the wealthy wil always end in disaster.

Another pass the buck excuse. Have been following headlines at all. There isn't a soul that buys into this shit your spewing. I'll get to your raise BS in a second. The reason we are this mess is because a lot of people took risks they couldn't afford to take, that includes home buyers and morrgage sellers.

Raises? As my good buddy Shogun has said a 5% percent raise these days isn't gonna do shit for people. And newsflash: You don't get a raise just for ding the stuff outlined in your job functions for another year. Employees have a contract with their employer that says for doing these tasks you get paid X. If you do more than X then you can ask for a raise.

 

[bush lover]

You are obviously a Marxist class-warfare Dem tool. Our next President McCain has pledged an additional tax CUT to the productive class in America, in addition to making our current President's tax CUTS permanent. Your Messiah wants to RAISE taxes so the Dems, who have run up the deficits with their wild Socialist spending programs, can have even more of my money to give to lazy bums who vote for them.

 

[Hum Dinger]

You are obviously a Marxist class-warfare Dem tool. Our next President McCain has pledged an additional tax CUT to the productive class in America, in addition to making our current President's tax CUTS permanent. Your Messiah wants to RAISE taxes so the Dems, who have run up the deficits with their wild Socialist spending programs, can have even more of my money to give to lazy bums who vote for them.

So I guess that what your saying is that instead of balancing the wealth distribution, by giving well earned pay raises to the productive people in soceity, and thereby reducing the amount of debt throughout the country. You feel that the government should solely manage the economy by manipulating the taxes. The private sector should not be responsible for the economics of this country.

Wow, and you call me a Marxist? That's just plain dumb.

I guess that, from your point of view, the 1940s thru the 1980s, when large pay raises were common, we were a Marxist country, huh? Dumb as shit!

The overwhelming greed of the Capitalist ideology has at this point betrayed capitalism itself.

BTW, red baiting went out of style 50 years ago, nowadays it just makes you sound like an

 

[Hum Dinger]

Another pass the buck excuse. Have been following headlines at all. There isn't a soul that buys into this shit your spewing. I'll get to your raise BS in a second. The reason we are this mess is because a lot of people took risks they couldn't afford to take, that includes home buyers and morrgage sellers.

Raises? As my good buddy Shogun has said a 5% percent raise these days isn't gonna do shit for people. And newsflash: You don't get a raise just for ding the stuff outlined in your job functions for another year. Employees have a contract with their employer that says for doing these tasks you get paid X. If you do more than X then you can ask for a raise.

I got news for you - there are millions of people, probably the majority, that feel the same way as me.

Second, a 5% raise every year does help out an awful lot (Do the math). It at least will about keep up with the increases in the cost of living each year.

Third, employeers don't limit employee responsibilties to a simple unchanging lists of tasks. Employers are constantly changing employees 'Job Function'. Almost every employee grows in his job and their responsibilties grow with them. A experienced employee is worth a lot more than an inexperienced one. But despite ever growing executives compensation (usually for doing NOTHING productive) and ever growing profits, employees wages are held to below the increase in the cost of living. An ever decreasing real wage.

Finally, CAPITALISM is based on TRUST and GOOD WILL between an employer and an employee. Hard working, good employees must be rewarded. They will respond with increased productivity and good will to the employer, without which the business won't survive.

This country has been a capitalist country, because the WORKING PEOPLE have chosen capitalism. Because the employee/ employer relationships from the 1940s thru the 1980s were excellent. Because the 'American Dream' was a reality.

Nowadays, the wealthiest people in this country have betrayed capitalism, replacing it with pure greed and undoing the Good Will that this nation was built upon.

Without that good will the working people can and will turn this country socialist, and there's not a damn thing the wealthy can do to stop it.

 

[Bern80]

I got news for you - there are millions of people, probably the majority, that feel the same way as me.

I actually do believe that and it is unfortunate. We have bread a new generation of people that believe they are owed and entitled to things not for any extra productivity, not from earning them, but just because they breathe. Companies purchase labor just like consumers purchase goods and services and what is scarce (i.e. skills sets and increased productivity will usually be rewarded.

Second, a 5% raise every year does help out an awful lot (Do the math). It at least will about keep up with the increases in the cost of living each year.

Cost of living or the Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA) is based the CPI index released in the third quarter of each year. The CPI is measure of the change in price of given basket of goods. The last year I could find records for was up to 2006 where the figure was given as a whopping 4.1%, I suspect very much that '07 and '08 may see maybe close to a 10% The link below notes what the COLA has been since 2000

Cost Of Living Adjustment

Do you honestly want your pay fluctuating with this index? What if the cost of living actually decreased? Fair is fair, right? I assume you would not complain if the adjusted your pay down to reflect the COLA.

Third, employeers don't limit employee responsibilties to a simple unchanging lists of tasks. Employers are constantly changing employees 'Job Function'. Almost every employee grows in his job and their responsibilties grow with them. A experienced employee is worth a lot more than an inexperienced one. But despite ever growing executives compensation (usually for doing NOTHING productive) and ever growing profits, employees wages are held to below the increase in the cost of living. An ever decreasing real wage.

I don't know what world you live in, but it isn't the one I have witnessed in my 5 years in the job market. Do you not receive job descriptions where you work?

Let's talk about the employer/employee relationship for a second. There seems to be this overarching theme or notion these days that empoyers really have their workers over a barrel. It really shows all the things that employers do now that people have simply come to expect and take for granted. Everything the government takes out in taxes your employer has to match. People with even the most semi-valuable skills get amazing benefits from their employers. Mathching 401k, discounted gym memberships, on site daycare. All in an attempt to attract quality employees. Not to mention the stuff we really take for granted. Employers, not you, usually pay the bulk of your healthcare costs. They pay you to take vacation for 2 weeks out of the year AT MINIMUM. If I stay at my company for 10 years I could be eligible to take 2 months off PAID to not work.

Finally, CAPITALISM is based on TRUST and GOOD WILL between an employer and an employee. Hard working, good employees must be rewarded. They will respond with increased productivity and good will to the employer, without which the business won't survive.

This country has been a capitalist country, because the WORKING PEOPLE have chosen capitalism. Because the employee/ employer relationships from the 1940s thru the 1980s were excellent. Because the 'American Dream' was a reality.

Nowadays, the wealthiest people in this country have betrayed capitalism, replacing it with pure greed and undoing the Good Will that this nation was built upon.

Without that good will the working people can and will turn this country socialist, and there's not a damn thing the wealthy can do to stop it.

And you are apparently another person that doesn't know shit about the wealthy. You look at Enron execs or maybe the Paris Hiltons of the world and think that's really an accurate picture of what constitutes the majority of the wealthy. It would absolutely kill you to find out how many of the rich out there are self made. You don't like the big wigs at your company because they won't give you a raise, THEN DON'T FUCKING WORK FOR THEM. Find someone else who places more value in your skills or do what so many of those CEO's and wealthy did, take a real risk and go into business for yourself.

 

[Hum Dinger]

I don't know what world you live in, but it isn't the one I have witnessed in my 5 years in the job market. Do you not receive job descriptions where you work?

If your not constantly having your responsibilities increased, it's probably because your boss thinks your an incompetent boob. Job descriptions are only a start for most employees.

And you are apparently another person that doesn't know shit about the wealthy.

I grew up in a town that has six railroad stations connecting the residents directly to Wall St. A town concieved and founded for the wealthy (Garden City, N.Y.). My father is a retired Wall St. executive. I am someone that very close to being a person Obama would classify as 'Wealthy'. A few years ago I lived in a town that CNN declared to be the wealthiest town in America (New Canaan, CT.)

It is YOU that doesn't know SHIT about the wealthy. The vast majority of the wealth in this country is obtained through INHERITANCE. The vast majority of executive jobs are given based on SOCIAL STATUS and POWER MARRAIGES.

Risk in business (was until a few days ago), almost non-existant.

Most CEOs have not done a hard days work in they're lives. (O.K. maybe they, like the other wealthy in this country work hard at STEALING ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH!)

...in my 5 years in the job market...

Oh, so you're an inexperienced little boy, that's bought into the BIG LIE. That explains it.

Bet your attitude is a bit different in ten years.

 

[Bern80]

I grew up in a town that has six railroad stations connecting the residents directly to Wall St. A town concieved and founded for the wealthy (Garden City, N.Y.). My father is a retired Wall St. executive. I am someone that very close to being a person Obama would classify as 'Wealthy'. A few years ago I lived in a town that CNN declared to be the wealthiest town in America (New Canaan, CT.)

What exactley is your point with this? That what's true for you is true of the majority?

It is YOU that doesn't know SHIT about the wealthy. The vast majority of the wealth in this country is obtained through INHERITANCE. The vast majority of executive jobs are given based on SOCIAL STATUS and POWER MARRAIGES.

Prove it. I have my evidence. Where is yours? The following are just some of the results of a study conducted by Thomas J. Stanley PhD and William D. Danko PhD. For purposses of their study thy defined wealthy as haveing a net worth (assetts minus liabilities) of 1 million dollars which comprises apprixmately 3.5% of the 100 million households in America.

- about two thirds are self employed

- Many of their businesses could be considered dull or boring. They include contractors, auctioners, rice farmers, owndes of mobile home parks, too name just a few


- Avg. Household total taxable income is $131,000, while avg. income is roughly $247,000.

- They have an avg. net worth of $3.7 million.

- Total avg. realized income is approximately 7%, that is they live on roughly 7% of their wealth

- 97% are homeowners w/ avg. home value of $320,000.

My personal favorite:

-MOST HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANY INHERITANCE. 80% ARE FIRST GENERATION MILLIONAIRES.

- Our wives are meticulous budgeters

- We are well educated. Only about 1 in 5 are non-college grads. Most hold advanced degrees. 18% have a masters. 8% law degrees, 6% medical degrees and 6% PhD's.

- Believe that education is important for their children and spend heavily on it.

- Two thirds work between forty-five and fifty-five hourse per week.

- On average invest nearly %20 of household taxable income.

For Shogun as well since you wanted evidence from the works I cited. These are paraphrased form the 'The Millionaire Next Door' by the authors above. If you think you can disprove it, by all means do so. Though I have a decent guess as to what your rebuttal will be.

Risk in business (was until a few days ago), almost non-existant.

Most CEOs have not done a hard days work in they're lives. (O.K. maybe they, like the other wealthy in this country work hard at STEALING ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH!)

You don't know too many private business owners apparently or run one yuorself obviously. No risk in making decisions when the buck stops with you? When the future of your company and it's employees rests with your decisions? ooookaaay

 

[Charles_Main]

So I guess that what your saying is that instead of balancing the wealth distribution, by giving well earned pay raises to the productive people in soceity, and thereby reducing the amount of debt throughout the country. You feel that the government should solely manage the economy by manipulating the taxes. The private sector should not be responsible for the economics of this country.

Exactly, it is not the place of the Federal government to be dictating Wages in the first place.

 

[Zoomie1980]

The root cause of this whole mess is the obscene wealth distribution in this country.

While executives compensation has been soaring beyond belief. Workers wages have been frozen for years.

Imagine if all those people that took out sub-prime mortgages had had something called a "RAISE" every now and then? There wouldn't have been a sub-prime mortgage crisis. There wouldn't have been a real estate crash.

Anti-inflation obsession has been the right-wing economists excuse for holding workers wages down at all costs. Yet during the years of highest inflation (1960s & 70s), the gap between the rich and the poor narrowed. We had a evry robust economy.

Economic for and by the wealthy wil always end in disaster.

In a FREE and OPEN marketplace, business pays whatever the going rate for a particular skill commands. It is most a supply and demand thing. If you are a degreed medical professional or a programmer or engineer you have seen a very robust increase in your income the past 10 years. If all you know how to do is pick up garbage, then no, you aren't any more valued today than you were 10 years ago.

and if you are still picking up garbage after 10 years......why?

 

[Zoomie1980]

If your not constantly having your responsibilities increased, it's probably because your boss thinks your an incompetent boob. Job descriptions are only a start for most employees.



I grew up in a town that has six railroad stations connecting the residents directly to Wall St. A town concieved and founded for the wealthy (Garden City, N.Y.). My father is a retired Wall St. executive. I am someone that very close to being a person Obama would classify as 'Wealthy'. A few years ago I lived in a town that CNN declared to be the wealthiest town in America (New Canaan, CT.)

It is YOU that doesn't know SHIT about the wealthy. The vast majority of the wealth in this country is obtained through INHERITANCE. The vast majority of executive jobs are given based on SOCIAL STATUS and POWER MARRAIGES.

Risk in business (was until a few days ago), almost non-existant.

Most CEOs have not done a hard days work in they're lives. (O.K. maybe they, like the other wealthy in this country work hard at STEALING ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH!)



Oh, so you're an inexperienced little boy, that's bought into the BIG LIE. That explains it.

Bet your attitude is a bit different in ten years.

90% of those with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more are FIRST GENERATION wealth. Only a VERY TINY MINORITY of today's wealthy were born with it.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I got news for you - there are millions of people, probably the majority, that feel the same way as me.

Second, a 5% raise every year does help out an awful lot (Do the math). It at least will about keep up with the increases in the cost of living each year.

Third, employeers don't limit employee responsibilties to a simple unchanging lists of tasks. Employers are constantly changing employees 'Job Function'. Almost every employee grows in his job and their responsibilties grow with them. A experienced employee is worth a lot more than an inexperienced one. But despite ever growing executives compensation (usually for doing NOTHING productive) and ever growing profits, employees wages are held to below the increase in the cost of living. An ever decreasing real wage.

Finally, CAPITALISM is based on TRUST and GOOD WILL between an employer and an employee. Hard working, good employees must be rewarded. They will respond with increased productivity and good will to the employer, without which the business won't survive.

This country has been a capitalist country, because the WORKING PEOPLE have chosen capitalism. Because the employee/ employer relationships from the 1940s thru the 1980s were excellent. Because the 'American Dream' was a reality.

Nowadays, the wealthiest people in this country have betrayed capitalism, replacing it with pure greed and undoing the Good Will that this nation was built upon.

Without that good will the working people can and will turn this country socialist, and there's not a damn thing the wealthy can do to stop it.

This country is no closer to becoming socialist now than at any time. We rejected almost ALL the only socialist policies this country tried when we scrapped all of the New Deal following WWII with only Social Security surviving. I've seen idiots trying to equate American society today with French society in the late 18th Century. We bear NO similarity to that time at all and will not any time in your life time.

If you want more money, quit your job and take one somewhere else that pays better or improve your skill set and become more marketable. If you don't want to do either of those, then tough, learn to live on what you make now because you will NEVER make anything more and that is perfectly justifiable and moral.

 

[editec]

It does NOT matter whether the wealthy are wealthy by dint of their hard work and brains, or they got that way by birth.

What DOES matter is that the economy game has systematically been rigged in the last thirty years to give CAPITAL enormous advantages over LABOR.

The absolute worst CEO of the top 25 derevitives houses made more than the worlds leading heart or brain surgeon.

The average salary of the top 25 derevative houses was $700,000,000 in 2006 according to something I saw on one of the business networks recently.

Are you going to try to tell us that those fat salaries are justified by their brains or hard work, Bern?

Do you honestly believe they are worth more to this world than the world's top heart and brain specialists?

The fucking market does.

But as we are now seeing the fucking market is run by men driven insane by greed.

The enormous income disparity now between the SUPER rich, and the merely very rich (leaving out anyone at all who actually lives from his labors, no matter how much they make..I mean coupon clippers, mostly) has distorted not only financial markets, but pretty much every aspect of our society.


So my complaint here is not with the petty wealthy.

As much as you would like to dismiss people like Brian and Sho and Seeley as merely being class envious, that is not what any of us are saying.

My complaint is with the masters of the our universe whose wealth is so grand that it is basically a theoretical number, wealth beyond accounting, in other words.

They have rigged the game for them and at the expensive of EVERYONE.

The poor, the workers, the modestly affluent, the very affluent, the truly rich, ALL of us are at risk when the control of wealth falls into the hands of a handful of people in the world.

The income disparity between the top 10% and the top 1/10% is so vast as to make it seem like you're comparing a citizen's worth to a nations.

NOBODY should have that much power, Bern.

 

[Bern80]

It does NOT matter whether the wealthy are wealthy by dint of their hard work and brains, or they got that way by birth.

What DOES matter is that the economy game has systematically been rigged in the last thirty years to give CAPITAL enormous advantages over LABOR.

What are these CAPITAL advantages you speak of? Please be specific.

It matters a great deal how people get rich. That you think it doesn't shows that you still dont' ackowledge that there is a major factor in wealth accumulation beyond market forces or these advantages for the wealthy. It is atitude and human behavior. How many people got rich with atitudes like yours do you suppose?

You can not change what you don't acknowledge. If you don't acknowledge that you have ownership in why you are where you are, then where you are financially is not going to change. I suspect you never have acknowledged that. You complain about huge salaries for CEOs, advantages for them, etc. and you honestly have the balls to blame them for the fact that you aren't independently wealthy?

Isn't your goal to improve the standard of living of these poor people? Why have you come up with such an ass backwards way of doing it then? Logic to me would dictate that if that was the goal we figure things they can do to meet that goal. Instead it is you contention that somehow how this poor middle classers are going to be brought up by the mere act of bringing the wealthy down. A huge part of your problem is that you have simply reconciled yourslef to being an employee. Well as the statistics I gave show that becoming even mildly wealthy is going to be tough if that is the fate you have reconciled yourself to.

You see editec what I think of greedy CEO's and I will grant you they are out there, just not in the number you believe, is really irrelevant because at the end of the day I KNOW they have little do with whether or not I accumalte wealth for myself. Of those greedy CEOs that put themselves ahead to the detrimant of their companies and employees I would agree with you. The problem is I find it a useless exercise complaining about it. It isn't getting me anywhere,and I don't see how it will, in my goal to improve my wealth and standard of living. Do you?

The absolute worst CEO of the top 25 derevitives houses made more than the worlds leading heart or brain surgeon.

The average salary of the top 25 derevative houses was $700,000,000 in 2006 according to something I saw on one of the business networks recently.

Are you going to try to tell us that those fat salaries are justified by their brains or hard work, Bern?

Do you honestly believe they are worth more to this world than the world's top heart and brain specialists?

The fucking market does.

One could make arguments both ways. How many people does a brain surgeon employ? How many people does your avg. CEO employ? If you are the owner of a company, whether it be little mom and pop or Fortune 500, you have decisions to make about what to do with your profits, hard decisions. You can give raises if you deem employees deserv them, you can reinvest into the company or you can take some extra home for yourself or combinations of all of those.

As much as you would like to dismiss people like Brian and Sho and Seeley as merely being class envious, that is not what any of us are saying.

My complaint is with the masters of the our universe whose wealth is so grand that it is basically a theoretical number, wealth beyond accounting, in other words.

They have rigged the game for them and at the expensive of EVERYONE.

The poor, the workers, the modestly affluent, the very affluent, the truly rich, ALL of us are at risk when the control of wealth falls into the hands of a handful of people in the world.

The income disparity between the top 10% and the top 1/10% is so vast as to make it seem like you're comparing a citizen's worth to a nations.

NOBODY should have that much power, Bern.

So it would seem in summarization that you believe their should be some other entity other than the market that sets value of labor and that you believe a cap should mandates on how much someone can make, correct? I don't believe those are unreasonable conclusions.

You claim it hurts the middle class and poor that the ultra wealthy are, well, so ultra wealthy I guess. Fine, tell me how. BE SPECFIC. What did those CEO's of those derivatives companies do to you that kept you from becoming wealthy?

 

[Bern80]

It appears as though some of the Dem's have the very same plans. Limiting what someone can make is going to be a very slippery slope

Democrats want pay limits, loan aid in bailout - Yahoo! News

 

[Care4all]

In a FREE and OPEN marketplace, business pays whatever the going rate for a particular skill commands. It is most a supply and demand thing. If you are a degreed medical professional or a programmer or engineer you have seen a very robust increase in your income the past 10 years. If all you know how to do is pick up garbage, then no, you aren't any more valued today than you were 10 years ago.

and if you are still picking up garbage after 10 years......why?[/QUOTE]

one of the BEST paying jobs in most any city, especially new york city....people would die for a sanitation job, and get well ahead of most of the rest of society!!!!

 

[TopGunna]

I agree with a lot of what Bern said. Wealth isn't created solely from capital and labor: the two are worthless in the absence of human ingenuity. The mind is what creates new technologies, new products, new business models, new productivity enhancements.... in short, everything that creates wealth. Labor or capital without a mind behind it is useless.

Also, editec, in your example, I would argue that the leading heart and brain surgeons are limited in how much they can do, because their work isn't scalable. One operation of heart surgery is extraordinarily valuable to the individual being treated, but an innovation that improves the lives of millions (incrementally) creates more value in the aggragate.

 

[Hum Dinger]

First of all, who cares about a 'Free and open Market'? How about a "Fair" market. The economic 'free for all' that has gone on in this country is the cause of the present and many past economic crisises. It is nothing but legalized thievery. The creation of wealth, the value of services and the distribution of capital are completetly unrelated in this country.

Secondly, engineering innovation is extremely important to a dynamic economy and their is no doubt it may be the most valuable commodity that any soceity may have. But engineers are not very well paid as compared to doctors, lawyers, accountants or business execs., etc...They are the bottom of the barrel of the white collar workers. The only engineering field that has seen considerable growth in the last ten years is in the IT field. Hell, that's why I switched from electronics to IT. I don't even think that IT work should be considered 'engineering', except for a tiny number of microprocessor designers and the like.

Thirdly, engineers are most closely related to labor and are part of the production process. In fact they are the leaders of production.

Fourth, the distribution of wealth in this country is based on maintaining the socio-economic order and has NOTHING to do with the real wealth that a person contributes to society. The economically advantaged taking advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Houses are wealth, cars wealth, sewers are wealth...etc. All are made by labor intensive production.

Lawyers, accountants and business people do not create wealth, they just suck it up. Doctors potentially have huge value to a society, but do not create wealth. Unfortunately, the quality of health care in this country is so poor that Doctors are only worth about one tenth of what they are paid.


The Russian empire was a capitalist country, with wealth distribution very similar to the present day U.S. It was an economic disaster. The Soviets shot & imprisoned the wealthiest and reordered the distribution of wealth in favor of labor. The Soviet Union quickly became one of the most economically powerful societies the world has ever known.

If it weren't for the rise of LIBERAL democracy, which also heavily favored labor, the Soviet Union WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATEST ECONOMIC SUCCES IN HISTORY.

It was only the rise of labor friendly liberalism ,that was so incredibly successful, that the success of the Soviet Union was entirely overshadowed.

If we had stayed with Free Market supply side economics from 1930s thru 1970s, we'd all be calling each other 'Comrade' right now.

 

[Bern80]

First of all, who cares about a 'Free and open Market'? How about a "Fair" market. The economic 'free for all' that has gone on in this country is the cause of the present and many past economic crisises. It is nothing but legalized thievery. The creation of wealth, the value of services and the distribution of capital are completetly unrelated in this country.

Please define 'fair economy'. How would such an economy work. Am I to believe you would rather we stand in queues?

Whether you care to admit it or not, like or hate the mortgage companies, like or hate the bailout of these companies, nothing changes the fact that a hell of lot of people took out home loans that had absolutely no business taking out and failed to pay them. That is not he fault of a free market system. We have a lot of bright people in this country, but far, far too many don't know shit about money. THAT is a very big reason why we are in the situation we are in. We are an extremely financially illiterate country. Your solution to that is to apparently set up a system that protects people from their own stupidity.

Fourth, the distribution of wealth in this country is based on maintaining the socio-economic order and has NOTHING to do with the real wealth that a person contributes to society. The economically advantaged taking advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Houses are wealth, cars wealth, sewers are wealth...etc. All are made by labor intensive production.

I refer you to the FACTS posted earlier in the thread, none of which supports this notion at all. As a typical leftist you point the finger every place you can possibly think of BEFORE pointing it at yourself as either the solution to or cause of a problem. I will ask you as I asked editec. What SPECIFICALLY did the AIG's of the world do to you to prevent you from achieving financial independence?

Lawyers, accountants and business people do not create wealth, they just suck it up. Doctors potentially have huge value to a society, but do not create wealth. Unfortunately, the quality of health care in this country is so poor that Doctors are only worth about one tenth of what they are paid.

I have to ask again, what is your goal? It would seem that raising on the whole our countries standard of living requires would require wealth accumulation. Your plan is simply to take wealth from those that have earned and give it to those that haven't. Your excuse of course you will be that most wealthy people didn't earn their wealth, which again is factually incorrect.

What jobs have more value to people? Despite their knowledge and ability to heal and save lives, brain surgery is not all that valueable to society because, again, brain surgeons don't exactley provide jobs for many people. CEO's do.

The Russian empire was a capitalist country, with wealth distribution very similar to the present day U.S. It was an economic disaster. The Soviets shot & imprisoned the wealthiest and reordered the distribution of wealth in favor of labor. The Soviet Union quickly became one of the most economically powerful societies the world has ever known.

If it weren't for the rise of LIBERAL democracy, which also heavily favored labor, the Soviet Union WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATEST ECONOMIC SUCCES IN HISTORY.

It was only the rise of labor friendly liberalism ,that was so incredibly successful, that the success of the Soviet Union was entirely overshadowed.

If we had stayed with Free Market supply side economics from 1930s thru 1970s, we'd all be calling each other 'Comrade' right now.

Well at least your not a commie who isn't afraid to admit he is one. I don't recall a lot fo Russians coming out of the cold war era proclaiming how dandy their lives were, if not but for the U.S.

 

[Odd1_Out]

The root cause of this whole mess is the obscene wealth distribution in this country.

While executives compensation has been soaring beyond belief. Workers wages have been frozen for years.

Imagine if all those people that took out sub-prime mortgages had had something called a "RAISE" every now and then? There wouldn't have been a sub-prime mortgage crisis. There wouldn't have been a real estate crash.

Anti-inflation obsession has been the right-wing economists excuse for holding workers wages down at all costs. Yet during the years of highest inflation (1960s & 70s), the gap between the rich and the poor narrowed. We had a evry robust economy.

Economic for and by the wealthy wil always end in disaster.

Even that may not have helped. My brother worked in the mortgage industry at the time that all of these neg-am loans were being doled out, and he said that it was really fraud on the part of the mortgage companies and their employees.

They were told to "talk the number up" when asking people about their salaries, in order to make sure the buyers would qualify for the homes they were trying to get in to. And, the brokers did as they were told because a large part of their salary depended on commission.

It all comes down to unethical business practices and greed, something that has been wrong in this country for a long time.