The Palestine Solution -- Why not the Olmert Plan?

[Phoenall]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

Doesn't answer the question - could Olmert have pulled it off, particularly given the climate in Israel at the time?

It was all down to the Palestinians to find out, and as always they refused to talk. How many times have they walked out on peace talks now, showing they have no intentions to ever be at peace with Israel.

What kind of statement is that?

Could Olmert have pulled it off? No leader is going to enter into a deal that is likely to go bad - they keep one eye on the political situation.

A truthful one that is proven by the number of times they have walked away from peace talks. Now the Israelis are not even meeting with the Palestinians and the Palestinians are not sure on what to do.

 

[Phoenall]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

Nope! I disagree wholeheartedly with the One State solution. I believe that the two-state solution, with the Jewish nation-State of Israel as it is, and an independent, sovereign nation-state for the Palestinians alongside Israel, that's comprised of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (Jerusalem was originally supposed to be a shared Capitol between two states: Jewish West Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel, and Arab East Jerusalem the Capitol of Palestine.) is the safest, sanest and most sensible solution to the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian debacle. That's how it was supposed to be, under the UN partition, and that's how it should be and must be. It's not too late, and Israel must do her part by evacuating her troops and right-wing Israeli Jewish settlers from West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem...now!!

No settlers in gaza and the Jews are only settling Jewish owned land in the west bank and East Jerusalem.

The rest of your post points to you being a sock puppet for team palestine

 

[Phoenall]

Netanyahu is Likud. The Likud Charter makes it impossible for him to agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state.


"a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”


b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

- See more at: Netanyahu’s party platform ‘flatly rejects’ establishment of Palestinian state

And what official government report is this taken from ?



And is a piece of islamonazi propaganda from 2011 the best you can do. A manipulated political parties charter

 

[independent minded]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

Nope! I disagree wholeheartedly with the One State solution. I believe that the two-state solution, with the Jewish nation-State of Israel as it is, and an independent, sovereign nation-state for the Palestinians alongside Israel, that's comprised of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (Jerusalem was originally supposed to be a shared Capitol between two states: Jewish West Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel, and Arab East Jerusalem the Capitol of Palestine.) is the safest, sanest and most sensible solution to the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian debacle. That's how it was supposed to be, under the UN partition, and that's how it should be and must be. It's not too late, and Israel must do her part by evacuating her troops and right-wing Israeli Jewish settlers from West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem...now!!

No settlers in gaza and the Jews are only settling Jewish owned land in the west bank and East Jerusalem.

The rest of your post points to you being a sock puppet for team palestine

Okay, so there are no more settlers in Gaza Strip. I do think, however, that the Israeli Jewish settlers, as well as Israeli troops must be evacuated from West Bank and East Jerusalem, because they don't belong in those areas. West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem were designated for the Palestinians so that they could create an independent, sovereign state of their own right alongside Israel, under the UN Partition, which should be complied with. One value of Zionism, as it's really supposed to be would be to have the land partitioned into two states, with Jerusalem as a shared capitol between Israel and Palestine. Ever heard the expression "Good fences make good neighbors"? That applies here, perfectly.

One does not have to be uncritical of the Palestinians and exonerate then (they, too, have done some awful things.), to realize that both peoples (i. e. the Israelil Jews and the Palestinians) need self-determination and normalization in the form of having their very own independent, sovereign nation-states alongside each other.

 

[Shusha]

Okay, so there are no more settlers in Gaza Strip.

There are no more Jewish communities in Gaza, though there used to be. There are no more Jews in Gaza, though thereused to be.

I do think, however, that the Israeli Jewish settlers ... must be evacuated from West Bank and East Jerusalem, because they don't belong in those areas.

So you believe in ethnic cleansing -- the forced removal of people from their homes based on their ethnicity.

Do you also believe that the Palestinian Arab Muslims should be cleansed from Israel?

Why or why not?

 

[montelatici]

The Jews came from outside Palestine, from other continents, and ethnically cleansed the native inhabitants. You seem to support the ethnic cleansing of those non-Jews. Hypocrite.

 

[Shusha]

The Jews came from outside Palestine, from other continents, and ethnically cleansed the native inhabitants. You seem to support the ethnic cleansing of those non-Jews. Hypocrite.

Don't be ridiculous, of course I don't support ethnic cleansing. And I have consistently supported both the rights of the Jewish people and the Palestinian people, including the right of return for both peoples. We do disagree about who the "native inhabitants" actually are, though.

 

[montelatici]

The native inhabitants have to inhabit the land, by definition. That is what is meant by native inhabitant. Native inhabitants of Palestine can't be inhabitants of another continent.

 

[Phoenall]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

Nope! I disagree wholeheartedly with the One State solution. I believe that the two-state solution, with the Jewish nation-State of Israel as it is, and an independent, sovereign nation-state for the Palestinians alongside Israel, that's comprised of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (Jerusalem was originally supposed to be a shared Capitol between two states: Jewish West Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel, and Arab East Jerusalem the Capitol of Palestine.) is the safest, sanest and most sensible solution to the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian debacle. That's how it was supposed to be, under the UN partition, and that's how it should be and must be. It's not too late, and Israel must do her part by evacuating her troops and right-wing Israeli Jewish settlers from West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem...now!!

No settlers in gaza and the Jews are only settling Jewish owned land in the west bank and East Jerusalem.

The rest of your post points to you being a sock puppet for team palestine

Okay, so there are no more settlers in Gaza Strip. I do think, however, that the Israeli Jewish settlers, as well as Israeli troops must be evacuated from West Bank and East Jerusalem, because they don't belong in those areas. West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem were designated for the Palestinians so that they could create an independent, sovereign state of their own right alongside Israel, under the UN Partition, which should be complied with. One value of Zionism, as it's really supposed to be would be to have the land partitioned into two states, with Jerusalem as a shared capitol between Israel and Palestine. Ever heard the expression "Good fences make good neighbors"? That applies here, perfectly.

One does not have to be uncritical of the Palestinians and exonerate then (they, too, have done some awful things.), to realize that both peoples (i. e. the Israelil Jews and the Palestinians) need self-determination and normalization in the form of having their very own independent, sovereign nation-states alongside each other.

Who designated these lands to the arab muslims then as I can not find any international treaty that delineates the land as being arab muslim. The only one I can find states that the land was for the Jewish NATIONal home and that was dated 1923



Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory


PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.


Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.







Since the time of the ottomans the Jews have always been the majority in the west bank and Jerusalem and it was only in 1949 that the arab muslims forcibly evicted the Jews from lands they owned and had title to. Over 1 million Jews were thus expelled illegally from their homes.

The UN partition was not law it was a recommendation that the UN put forward that they had no legal right to implement. They later realised this and so changed the UN charter to reflect their error.

The Palestinians have had the chance of their own state since 1921 when 78% of Palestine was set aside for them and called trans Jordan. Even then they screwed up and tried to take Jordan by force and were subsequently evicted from Jordan after 50,000 were massacred in the concentration camps.


The Jews have shown self determination since 1948 and the world has accepted this. The arab muslims will never show self determination while the world pays for illegal weapons to fire at Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

The Jews came from outside Palestine, from other continents, and ethnically cleansed the native inhabitants. You seem to support the ethnic cleansing of those non-Jews. Hypocrite.

The arab muslims, hence their name, also came from outside of Palestine and ethnically cleansed the Jews from their lands. These Jews moved to bordering nations until the Ottomans invited them back.

The majority of non Jews are illegal immigrants and deserters from the arab league armies, so have no legal right to be there.

 

[Coyote]

This thread is becoming derailed by Mandate discussions - we have a thread for that. Let's get back to the Olmert plan.

 

[Shusha]

Does anyone think that the Olmert Plan, or something close to it, is still viable?