The Palestine Solution -- Why not the Olmert Plan?

[Coyote]

The plan was a good one ....

Thank you. We agree.

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

 

[Phoenall]

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

• Correct and it would not be Palestine would it. For 3000 years it was Jewish, then it was conquered by the Romans who shipped the Jews out as slaves to the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Leaving behind the ones they did not want. These pockets of Jews stayed and bred and became the Palestinians of the Romans. Then the Christian invaded and took the land as theirs, starting the BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews left to pave the way for the impending massacres. Still the Jews prevailed and lived in Palestine. Then the muslims invaded and took the land, forcing the Christians to convert or die. All through this the Jews lived and worked as best they could. So DNA sampling would show the Palestinians to be a mixture of Ancient Roman, Greek, Arab, Syrian, Persian and Assyrian DNA and very little if any Jewish. Why do you think that no Palestinians have DNA tests done as they show they are from other Islamic nations.

The people who lived in that region were a mixture of different peoples including Jews, peoples who preceded them, and peoples who succeeded them- who are lumped into the group Palestinians.

They include Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. Same people.

DNA would show a close relationship of all these people, with Palestinians showing a a closer relationship to Jews than some of the Jewish groups and to other Arab groups. But it would show nothing about national borders.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

If that was the case then how is it that DNA tests already done show no or very little Jewish admixture into the Palestinians DNA. What is shown is large amounts of Syrian, Iranian, Saudi, Yemeni and even Pakistani in large numbers of cases. The same studies have shown that the bodies in Jewish cemeteries have the same DNA as the modern day Jews from Europe, America, Africa and the middle east. They show definitive markers that are not present in the Palestinians

 

[Phoenall]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

Doesn't answer the question - could Olmert have pulled it off, particularly given the climate in Israel at the time?

It was all down to the Palestinians to find out, and as always they refused to talk. How many times have they walked out on peace talks now, showing they have no intentions to ever be at peace with Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

You can't claim withdrawal and continue to unilaterally control the borders, the air space and territorial sea, Hollow Holly.

You poor, name-caller. That's your best effort.

Israel unilaterally withdrew. Sorry that the history causes you such angst.

What pains me is to break the truth to you. Not only did Israel not withdraw, The International Court of Justice has determined that Israel still occupies Gaza. Oh dear, Hollie's feeling even more hollow. LOL

"All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power. "

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf

Oh my. The name-caller is getting quite desperate.

If knew any of the history surrounding your Islamic terrorist heroes you would have learned that Israel was finalizing its withdrawal from Gaza in August of 2005. By September, your Islamic terrorist heroes were already committing acts of war with rockets striking Israeli territory.

It's a case of your Islamic terrorist heroes doing what is expected of Islamic terrorists. For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for your Islamic terrorist heroes, it must be a shared pathology of self-hate that binds you to them.

I wonder what the separation wall in Jerusalem has to do with gaza ? As that is what the link is about.


From the link

Scope of question posed - Request for opinion limited to the legal consequences of the construction of those parts of the wall .situated in Occupied Palestinian Territory

 

[Phoenall]

The plan was a good one ....

Thank you. We agree.

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

WHY ? a change of leader does not always mean a change of view by the incoming leader. How many times have the Palestinians refused to negotiate peace now ? 10 or even more, 50 maybe ?

 

[Phoenall]

Sharon's plan was not extreme at all. It reduced the cost of protecting a few thousand settlers by turning Gaza into a large concentration camp (in the original British definition of the word which meant concentrating belligerent native populations into easily guarded camps) that is easily ruled over by controlling the land border, the air space and territorial sea and maintaining taxing authority, power distribution etc.

Their power comes from Egypt or is self generated. They raise their own taxes and rule the people with an iron fist. Under the terms of international law Israel has no control over gaza so it is no longer occupied.

 

[Phoenall]

It's not what the people of Gaza do, it's what the Israelis do. They control the territory.

Not according to international law

 

[Phoenall]

It's not what the people of Gaza do, it's what the Israelis do. They control the territory.

That's just more of the stereotypical excuses from the Islamic terrorist huggers. What a shame that those like you are so quick to make excuses for Islamic-retrogrades.

Your Islamic terrorist heroes were given an opportunity to make a first attempt at building a functioning society when Israel withdrew from Gaza'istan. But, given the ideology of islamo-fascism and an unlimited UN sponsored welfare program designed to maintain Islamic terrorists, it should not have been a surprise that Islamic terrorists behaved the way one would expect Islamic terrorists to behave.

What is interesting to watch is the deepening pathology of the Islamic terrorist huggers as their heroes suffer one self-inflicted disaster after another.

Israel never withdrew. They just positioned their troops and Navy around Gaza and created a convenient easy to guard prison.

And yet they still fire illegal weapons at Israeli children, proving that gaza is not occupied. We don't see illegal wepons being deployed from the west bank do we ?

 

[Phoenall]

You can't claim withdrawal and continue to unilaterally control the borders, the air space and territorial sea, Hollow Holly.

hamas controls the borders as well so it is not unilateral. Just as the USA controls its borders with Canada and Mexico, does that mean that the US is occupying Canada and Mexico

 

[Coyote]

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

• Correct and it would not be Palestine would it. For 3000 years it was Jewish, then it was conquered by the Romans who shipped the Jews out as slaves to the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Leaving behind the ones they did not want. These pockets of Jews stayed and bred and became the Palestinians of the Romans. Then the Christian invaded and took the land as theirs, starting the BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews left to pave the way for the impending massacres. Still the Jews prevailed and lived in Palestine. Then the muslims invaded and took the land, forcing the Christians to convert or die. All through this the Jews lived and worked as best they could. So DNA sampling would show the Palestinians to be a mixture of Ancient Roman, Greek, Arab, Syrian, Persian and Assyrian DNA and very little if any Jewish. Why do you think that no Palestinians have DNA tests done as they show they are from other Islamic nations.

The people who lived in that region were a mixture of different peoples including Jews, peoples who preceded them, and peoples who succeeded them- who are lumped into the group Palestinians.

They include Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. Same people.

DNA would show a close relationship of all these people, with Palestinians showing a a closer relationship to Jews than some of the Jewish groups and to other Arab groups. But it would show nothing about national borders.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

If that was the case then how is it that DNA tests already done show no or very little Jewish admixture into the Palestinians DNA. What is shown is large amounts of Syrian, Iranian, Saudi, Yemeni and even Pakistani in large numbers of cases. The same studies have shown that the bodies in Jewish cemeteries have the same DNA as the modern day Jews from Europe, America, Africa and the middle east. They show definitive markers that are not present in the Palestinians

If you look at the groupings you will see that Palestinians are right in the middle of a circle where the closest groups to them are 4 Jewish groups and Syrians - all about equidistant. That puts them pretty close to Jews, and closer to those Jewish groups than some of the other Jewish groups. The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

 

[Coyote]

The plan was a good one ....

Thank you. We agree.

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

WHY ? a change of leader does not always mean a change of view by the incoming leader. How many times have the Palestinians refused to negotiate peace now ? 10 or even more, 50 maybe ?

A change in government to a far right leader most certainly would mean a change of view, as can be seen.

 

[Coyote]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

Doesn't answer the question - could Olmert have pulled it off, particularly given the climate in Israel at the time?

It was all down to the Palestinians to find out, and as always they refused to talk. How many times have they walked out on peace talks now, showing they have no intentions to ever be at peace with Israel.

What kind of statement is that?

Could Olmert have pulled it off? No leader is going to enter into a deal that is likely to go bad - they keep one eye on the political situation.

 

[Lipush]

Thank you. We agree.

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

WHY ? a change of leader does not always mean a change of view by the incoming leader. How many times have the Palestinians refused to negotiate peace now ? 10 or even more, 50 maybe ?

A change in government to a far right leader most certainly would mean a change of view, as can be seen.

That is not going to happen. Israel has no far-right leader with enough voters to shake Netanyahu's leadership (Netanyahu is not far-right). Bennett doesn't have this much popularity to pull something like this off.

 

[Lipush]

It's not what the people of Gaza do, it's what the Israelis do. They control the territory.

We control the Palestinian votes?

Nice to know. I didn't get that memo.

 

[independent minded]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

Nope! I disagree wholeheartedly with the One State solution. I believe that the two-state solution, with the Jewish nation-State of Israel as it is, and an independent, sovereign nation-state for the Palestinians alongside Israel, that's comprised of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (Jerusalem was originally supposed to be a shared Capitol between two states: Jewish West Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel, and Arab East Jerusalem the Capitol of Palestine.) is the safest, sanest and most sensible solution to the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian debacle. That's how it was supposed to be, under the UN partition, and that's how it should be and must be. It's not too late, and Israel must do her part by evacuating her troops and right-wing Israeli Jewish settlers from West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem...now!!

 

[independent minded]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

Doesn't answer the question - could Olmert have pulled it off, particularly given the climate in Israel at the time?

Didn't Sharon pull off something much more extreme, with minimal support?

Sharon was the next thing to a war criminal. He was way too extreme and too right-wing for Israel's own good.

 

[montelatici]

Netanyahu is Likud. The Likud Charter makes it impossible for him to agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state.


"a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”


b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

- See more at: Netanyahu’s party platform ‘flatly rejects’ establishment of Palestinian state

 

[Coyote]

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

WHY ? a change of leader does not always mean a change of view by the incoming leader. How many times have the Palestinians refused to negotiate peace now ? 10 or even more, 50 maybe ?

A change in government to a far right leader most certainly would mean a change of view, as can be seen.

That is not going to happen. Israel has no far-right leader with enough voters to shake Netanyahu's leadership (Netanyahu is not far-right). Bennett doesn't have this much popularity to pull something like this off.

What do you consider Netanyahu? He seems pretty far to the right.

 

[Lipush]

The plan was a good one? Abbas still didn't agree to it! Why doesn't he put forth that plan today?

Two things - Abbas needed more time and there was great doubt, given Olmert's legal problems, that he would be able to pull it off.

WHY ? a change of leader does not always mean a change of view by the incoming leader. How many times have the Palestinians refused to negotiate peace now ? 10 or even more, 50 maybe ?

A change in government to a far right leader most certainly would mean a change of view, as can be seen.

That is not going to happen. Israel has no far-right leader with enough voters to shake Netanyahu's leadership (Netanyahu is not far-right). Bennett doesn't have this much popularity to pull something like this off.

What do you consider Netanyahu? He seems pretty far to the right.

Netanyahu goes wherever the flow (and our enemies) take him. He's not initiative to protect the civilians, and under his leadership thousands of Palestinian killers were set free. So no, he's not a far-right. He's phoney-right, if anything.

 

[Phoenall]

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

• Correct and it would not be Palestine would it. For 3000 years it was Jewish, then it was conquered by the Romans who shipped the Jews out as slaves to the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Leaving behind the ones they did not want. These pockets of Jews stayed and bred and became the Palestinians of the Romans. Then the Christian invaded and took the land as theirs, starting the BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews left to pave the way for the impending massacres. Still the Jews prevailed and lived in Palestine. Then the muslims invaded and took the land, forcing the Christians to convert or die. All through this the Jews lived and worked as best they could. So DNA sampling would show the Palestinians to be a mixture of Ancient Roman, Greek, Arab, Syrian, Persian and Assyrian DNA and very little if any Jewish. Why do you think that no Palestinians have DNA tests done as they show they are from other Islamic nations.

The people who lived in that region were a mixture of different peoples including Jews, peoples who preceded them, and peoples who succeeded them- who are lumped into the group Palestinians.

They include Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. Same people.

DNA would show a close relationship of all these people, with Palestinians showing a a closer relationship to Jews than some of the Jewish groups and to other Arab groups. But it would show nothing about national borders.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

If that was the case then how is it that DNA tests already done show no or very little Jewish admixture into the Palestinians DNA. What is shown is large amounts of Syrian, Iranian, Saudi, Yemeni and even Pakistani in large numbers of cases. The same studies have shown that the bodies in Jewish cemeteries have the same DNA as the modern day Jews from Europe, America, Africa and the middle east. They show definitive markers that are not present in the Palestinians

If you look at the groupings you will see that Palestinians are right in the middle of a circle where the closest groups to them are 4 Jewish groups and Syrians - all about equidistant. That puts them pretty close to Jews, and closer to those Jewish groups than some of the other Jewish groups. The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

So how does it prove, or even show, that there was a mixing of DNA when the muslims would never intermarry outside of their family unit. The one thing that destroys every attempt at mixing Jewish and muslim DNA is the muslim refusal to go outside of the family. That is why there are so many birth defects amongst the muslims, they intermarry far too closely. This will be the death of the Islamic cult as they are bringing in genetic faults that have become dominant.