The Palestine Solution -- Why not the Olmert Plan?

[montelatici]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

Let me get this straight. If millions of Siberians self identify as Swiss and start eating fondue they should be able to move to Switzerland?

 

[Hollie]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

Let me get this straight. If millions of Siberians self identify as Swiss and start eating fondue they should be able to move to Switzerland?

Let me get this straight. If a few Arab squatters from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are falsely labeled as Pal'istanian by an Egyptian con man they should be given an Islamic terrorist state?

 

[montelatici]

Lying Hollie with the Palestine was empty until the European Jews arrived, myth.

 

[Hollie]

Lying Hollie with the Palestine was empty until the European Jews arrived, myth.

That was not identified in my comment.

Try paying attention. Put on your islamo-tap dancing shoes.

 

[montelatici]

That was implied in your comment. Put on your ZioNazi clown dancing outfit.

 

[Hollie]

That was implied in your comment. Put on your ZioNazi clown dancing outfit.

Your implications / conspiracy theories are your own.

It's just a fact that the geographic area of Pal'istan was subject to invasion / colonization / squatting by Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese and other Arabs.

Denial on your part won't change that history.

 

[montelatici]

Let's go through a condensed history of Palestine since the Romans so you can quit making a fool of yourself.

Palestine was conquered by the Romans, but they did not settle their people there. They ruled the native people and imposed a law that required the native people to convert to Christianity from the various religions they had been following when Christianity became the state-religion.

It was conquered by the Persians in 614 and the Persians ruled the native population, they did not settle their people there.

In 628 it was reconquered by the Romans (Byzantines), and again the Romans ruled the native people and did not settle their people there.

In 637 it was conquered by the Arabians/Saracens. They also ruled the native people, but did not settle their people there. Many of the native Christians converted to Islam.

In 1099 Palestine was conquered by the Christian Crusaders who ruled for a little over 100 years. Many of the Muslims re-converted to Christianity.

In 1187 Saladin, the Kurdish ruler of Egypt, conquered most of Palestine, including Jerusalem, the Egyptians also ruled the native people and did not settle their people in Palestine.

In 1250 Saladin's Ayubid in Egypt fell and was replaced by the Mameluks who continued to rule over Palestine's native people but did not settle Mameluks in Palestine. Mameluks being a warrior class made up of Christian converts to Islam from Georgia, the Balkans, Coptic Christians, etc.

In 1515 the Ottomans defeated the Mameluks and Palestine reverted to Ottoman rule. The Ottoman's did not settle their people there, they ruled the native people as previous rulers had.

In 1918 the Ottomans were defeated by the Allied Powers and Palestine reverted to the administration of a Mandatory, Great Britain. Great Britain did not settle its people there but did settle European Jews in the territory.

As you see, your assertion that somehow Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians (unless you mean Mameluks or Saladin's Kurds) invaded or colonized Palestine, is an historical impossibility. As far as the Turks, there was no evidence of a Turkish presence except for the military garrison and administrators when the British conquered Palestine in 1917 as the 1921 Report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations indicates.

 

[Hollie]

Let's go through a condensed history of Palestine since the Romans so you can quit making a fool of yourself.

Palestine was conquered by the Romans, but they did not settle their people there. They ruled the native people and imposed a law that required the native people to convert to Christianity from the various religions they had been following when Christianity became the state-religion.

It was conquered by the Persians in 614 and the Persians ruled the native population, they did not settle their people there.

In 628 it was reconquered by the Romans (Byzantines), and again the Romans ruled the native people and did not settle their people there.

In 637 it was conquered by the Arabians/Saracens. They also ruled the native people, but did not settle their people there. Many of the native Christians converted to Islam.

In 1099 Palestine was conquered by the Christian Crusaders who ruled for a little over 100 years. Many of the Muslims re-converted to Christianity.

In 1187 Saladin, the Kurdish ruler of Egypt, conquered most of Palestine, including Jerusalem, the Egyptians also ruled the native people and did not settle their people in Palestine.

In 1250 Saladin's Ayubid in Egypt fell and was replaced by the Mameluks who continued to rule over Palestine's native people but did not settle Mameluks in Palestine. Mameluks being a warrior class made up of Christian converts to Islam from Georgia, the Balkans, Coptic Christians, etc.

In 1515 the Ottomans defeated the Mameluks and Palestine reverted to Ottoman rule. The Ottoman's did not settle their people there, they ruled the native people as previous rulers had.

In 1918 the Ottomans were defeated by the Allied Powers and Palestine reverted to the administration of a Mandatory, Great Britain. Great Britain did not settle its people there but did settle European Jews in the territory.

As you see, your assertion that somehow Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians (unless you mean Mameluks or Saladin's Kurds) invaded or colonized Palestine, is an historical impossibility. As far as the Turks, there was no evidence of a Turkish presence except for the military garrison and administrators when the British conquered Palestine in 1917 as the 1921 Report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations indicates.

Your wiki inspired, Readers Digest invented, islamo-slanted version of history is cute but a waste of your time.

To require that the invading / colonizing Turks, followed by the squatting / land grabbing Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese were no factor in the geographic area of Pal'istan will only serve the small cabal of cut and pasters who share your insensate Jew hatreds.

 

[montelatici]

I did not need Wiki to provide that condensed history of Palestine. You obviously were oblivious to the actual history and timeline given your assertions. Hope it helps. Providing the actual history is somehow 'Jew hatred"? How does that compute, clown.

 

[Hollie]

I did not need Wiki to provide that condensed history of Palestine. You obviously were oblivious to the actual history and timeline given your assertions. Hope it helps. Providing the actual history is somehow 'Jew hatred"? How does that compute, clown.

It's comical when your cut and paste wiki'ized version of history, (I note your desperation as you cut and paste the same cut and paste across multiple threads), ignores the inevitable migration by the invading / colonizing Turks followed by the invading / land grabbing Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese.

 

[montelatici]

No cutting and pasting. Just facts that demonstrate you are full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. You can't even get the order right of who invaded and when you loon.

 

[Hollie]

No cutting and pasting. Just facts that demonstrate you are full of shit and don't know what you are talking about. You can't even get the order right of who invaded and when you loon.

I understand you're angry and frustrated at having your cutting and pasting exposed as fraud. You need a better argument.

Why would you suggest that the Turk invaders/colonizers and the Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese squatters / land grabbers were never a portion of the population in the geographic area of Pal'istan?

 

[montelatici]

Not angry at all, in fact, watching you make a fool of yourself is enjoyable.

 

[Shusha]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

Let me get this straight. If millions of Siberians self identify as Swiss and start eating fondue they should be able to move to Switzerland?

Well, one would have to ask what would cause millions of Siberians to adopt Swiss culture (which is considerably more than eating fondue, btw) and self-identify as Swiss -- but, essentially, yes.

 

[montelatici]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

Let me get this straight. If millions of Siberians self identify as Swiss and start eating fondue they should be able to move to Switzerland?

Well, one would have to ask what would cause millions of Siberians to adopt Swiss culture (which is considerably more than eating fondue, btw) and self-identify as Swiss -- but, essentially, yes.

There is a program in the U.S. for Government contracting that assigns special benefits to native americans, african americans, hispanic americans and perhaps others, called the 8(a) program. This program sets aside government contracts for people that have been certified as belonging to one of the recognized groups that are eligible to receive U.S. Government contracts on a sole-source or limited competition basis.

In the early days of the program Americans of white European descent tried to game the system claiming they were members of one of these groups culturally and were certified 8(a). Many were caught in subsequent audits, accused of receiving contracts fraudulently and convicted.

Self-identification culturally is ridiculous.

 

[Phoenall]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

• Correct and it would not be Palestine would it. For 3000 years it was Jewish, then it was conquered by the Romans who shipped the Jews out as slaves to the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Leaving behind the ones they did not want. These pockets of Jews stayed and bred and became the Palestinians of the Romans. Then the Christian invaded and took the land as theirs, starting the BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews left to pave the way for the impending massacres. Still the Jews prevailed and lived in Palestine. Then the muslims invaded and took the land, forcing the Christians to convert or die. All through this the Jews lived and worked as best they could. So DNA sampling would show the Palestinians to be a mixture of Ancient Roman, Greek, Arab, Syrian, Persian and Assyrian DNA and very little if any Jewish. Why do you think that no Palestinians have DNA tests done as they show they are from other Islamic nations.

 

[Phoenall]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

The only value in DNA research is that it shows the relationship of groups to each other and migration patterns over time. It's a fascinating tool. I can see how it could be used for discrimminatoin- in fact, in some of the very arguments here on both sides claiming certain Jewish groups are European and Palestinians are Arab.

I don't see what DNA sampling would accomplish in Phoenall's claims.

It would accomplish the truth once and for all, and set up the Palestinians for the biggest fail of their existence. It would show that their claims to being indigenous are false, and that their claims to ownership of the land are at best false and at worst fraudulent. That is why they wont submit to the testing

 

[Phoenall]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

 

[Coyote]

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

• Correct and it would not be Palestine would it. For 3000 years it was Jewish, then it was conquered by the Romans who shipped the Jews out as slaves to the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Leaving behind the ones they did not want. These pockets of Jews stayed and bred and became the Palestinians of the Romans. Then the Christian invaded and took the land as theirs, starting the BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews left to pave the way for the impending massacres. Still the Jews prevailed and lived in Palestine. Then the muslims invaded and took the land, forcing the Christians to convert or die. All through this the Jews lived and worked as best they could. So DNA sampling would show the Palestinians to be a mixture of Ancient Roman, Greek, Arab, Syrian, Persian and Assyrian DNA and very little if any Jewish. Why do you think that no Palestinians have DNA tests done as they show they are from other Islamic nations.

The people who lived in that region were a mixture of different peoples including Jews, peoples who preceded them, and peoples who succeeded them- who are lumped into the group Palestinians.

They include Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam. Same people.

DNA would show a close relationship of all these people, with Palestinians showing a a closer relationship to Jews than some of the Jewish groups and to other Arab groups. But it would show nothing about national borders.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

 

[Coyote]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.

It was less than what was on the table at Camp David, and Arafat turned that down.

Do you know that the Palestinians demand that new talks start at the point they walked out of the last talks, and now they walk out as soon as Israel refuses. Everyone knows that if the talks break down you start from the beginning again

Doesn't answer the question - could Olmert have pulled it off, particularly given the climate in Israel at the time?