The Palestine Solution -- Why not the Olmert Plan?

[Shusha]

So as not to derail another thread.

A few of you have said that the Olmert Plan was a "bad deal" and the Palestinians were right to reject it.

How so?

Briefly, the plan suggests:

Annexation by Israel of portions of East Jerusalem and surrounding areas (Gush Etzion, Ariel, Ma'aleh) as well as some areas along what the border would be.

Concession of an equal area of land.

Concession of parts of Jerusalem (dividing Jerusalem).

Palestinian contiguity on the West Bank and an access corridor to Gaza.

Shared control of the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif between Palestine, Israel and a 3 nation international committee.

Israeli withdrawal from the Jordan Valley.

Acceptance of the return of 5000 refugees.

Demilitarizaion of Palestine, control over airspace, and some supervision of border controls between Jordan and Palestine, temporarily.



When I look at that, I think -- wow! That is everything they are asking for. Why would they possibly refuse that? So someone help me out and explain it to me.

(And, yes, I already know at least Monte is likely to say that it doesn't count as "sovereignty" if you don't have the ability to attack another sovereign nation.)

 

[DarkFury]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

 

[Coyote]

It's a bad deal because it would never have been implimented - Olmert was weak and on his way out and the Palestinians recognized this. The plan was a good one but the time frame very tight. I'm not sure how these things work with the Israeli Knesset - but did Olmert's plan have wide enough support behind it on Israel's side? Could Olmert have unilaterally pushed it through or is there a process by which it is approved and passed?

 

[montelatici]

There is no sovereignty if another nation's military has control over a nation. In any case it wasn't a formal offer.

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said millions of dollars from the "extreme right wing" in the United States helped oust him from government and derailed a peace plan with the Palestinians."

Olmert: Right-wing U.S. cash derailed Israeli peace plan - CNN.com

 

[montelatici]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

 

[Hollie]

Olmert Memoir Cites Near Deal for Mideast Peace


JERUSALEM — Ehud Olmert, the former prime minister of Israel, says in new memoirs that he and Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, were very close to a peace deal two years ago, but Mr. Abbas’s hesitation, Mr. Olmert’s own legal troubles and the Israeli war in Gaza caused their talks to end. Shortly afterward, a right-wing Israeli government came to power

 

[Shusha]

The plan was a good one ....

Thank you. We agree.

 

[Coyote]

The plan was a good one ....

Thank you. We agree.

Yes. But could he have pulled it off? That was one of the concerns that led it to it's demise.

 

[Phoenall]

It's a bad deal because it would never have been implimented - Olmert was weak and on his way out and the Palestinians recognized this. The plan was a good one but the time frame very tight. I'm not sure how these things work with the Israeli Knesset - but did Olmert's plan have wide enough support behind it on Israel's side? Could Olmert have unilaterally pushed it through or is there a process by which it is approved and passed?

So rather than give a valid adult reply you rely on conjecture and a what might have been. It is like the camp David peace plan that Arafat rejected out of hand because he wanted to be seen as a strong leader by the world. No matter how short the time was to implement the deal it should at least have been negotiated. The way the Palestinians are going there will never be peace until the Jews are wiped out and just the arab muslims left to lord it over the land. Even then there would be no peace because the infighting would build as hamas, fatah and ?????? fought for supremacy. Only then the Jews would not be blamed and the members of team Palestine would either have to take sides or admit they had been wrong all along

 

[Phoenall]

There is no sovereignty if another nation's military has control over a nation. In any case it wasn't a formal offer.

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said millions of dollars from the "extreme right wing" in the United States helped oust him from government and derailed a peace plan with the Palestinians."

Olmert: Right-wing U.S. cash derailed Israeli peace plan - CNN.com

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT Germany and Japan had sovereignty when they were occupied by the US, so does N.I. under the Northern Ireland Assembly

 

[Phoenall]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

 

[Coyote]

It's a bad deal because it would never have been implimented - Olmert was weak and on his way out and the Palestinians recognized this. The plan was a good one but the time frame very tight. I'm not sure how these things work with the Israeli Knesset - but did Olmert's plan have wide enough support behind it on Israel's side? Could Olmert have unilaterally pushed it through or is there a process by which it is approved and passed?

So rather than give a valid adult reply you rely on conjecture and a what might have been. It is like the camp David peace plan that Arafat rejected out of hand because he wanted to be seen as a strong leader by the world. No matter how short the time was to implement the deal it should at least have been negotiated. The way the Palestinians are going there will never be peace until the Jews are wiped out and just the arab muslims left to lord it over the land. Even then there would be no peace because the infighting would build as hamas, fatah and ?????? fought for supremacy. Only then the Jews would not be blamed and the members of team Palestine would either have to take sides or admit they had been wrong all along

I gave a perfectly valid reply, more so then your diversion above.

Why would someone agree to deal that he knows in all likelyhood not go through at all? There was a very short window of time to work with before Olmert was removed but the writing was already on the wall.

 

[Coyote]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

 

[Phoenall]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.


It was workable and about the best the arab muslims could expect at the time, but as the evidence shows they don't want peace with Israel they just want it all

 

[Coyote]

I support the "one" state plan. ALL Israel. The "P"s have rejected three two state plans. Time to quit playing and quit asking. ONE state ALL Israel.

I agree.

With no arab muslim invaders allowed

Oh here we go again. So you're going to send 4 plus million muslims to concentration camps? Or, just kill them?

I take it you don't think Olmert's plan was a good one?

No I would send them back to the arab league nations they came from, and to make it fair I would do a DNA sampling of all 4 million to make sure they were returned home safely.
Or are you against that as well because it would show that you had been wrong all those years and had been supporting a LIE.

DNA sampling would tell you most belong where they are - their home.

 

[Shusha]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

 

[Shusha]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

 

[montelatici]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

I don't think you quite understand what is going on. There will never be a Palestinian state. The Jews believe they will be able to rule over the non-Jews throughout the lands they control for the long-term. Gaza as a surrounded Bantustan, claiming it is independent, while the other territories will be annexed.

 

[Coyote]

DNA sampling is a vile modern method of racial discrimination.

Which is why self-identification and culture should be the determining values when deciding someone's ethnicity.

The only value in DNA research is that it shows the relationship of groups to each other and migration patterns over time. It's a fascinating tool. I can see how it could be used for discrimminatoin- in fact, in some of the very arguments here on both sides claiming certain Jewish groups are European and Palestinians are Arab.

I don't see what DNA sampling would accomplish in Phoenall's claims.

 

[Coyote]

The Olmert Plan is no longer possible at this point (sadly). It was the very best offer the Palestnians were going to get. Anything they get now, even based on the principles of the Olmert Plan, will be less than what they might have had.

Less land for swap. No division of Jerusalem. No corridor between West Bank and Gaza. A security corridor for Israel through to the Jordan border. A security corridor in the Jordan valley. Those are the new realities in that past eight years. Its only going to get worse.

Shusha - could Olmert have pulled it off? If someone answered this already and I missed it, then I apologize. I don't think he could have - wouldn't the Knesset have had to go along with it? Would they have? What was offered was far more than I can imagine Israel agreeing to given public opinion on certain things like Jerusalem. Abbas had to have known this.