The Netherlands supplied chemicals to Iraq

[CSM]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1333221&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

I guess everyone was in on Saddam's little exploit.

 

[Harmageddon]

Yes, a Dutch businessman supplied chemicals to Saddam's regime that were later used to make poison gas. Saddam then used it on the Kurds and the Iranians. The other ingredients for poison gas were supplied by the British and the Americans. Current secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld shook hands with Saddam in the eighties while the deliveries of ingredients were being made.

Now here's the little difference in our two countries:

The dutch businessman is going to be on trial.
The dutch government is pushing for the trial, through our version of your supreme court.

Donald Rumsfeld is one of the main advocates of the current war in Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld is in your government, that is pushing for the trial of Saddam.

 

[CSM]

Yes, a Dutch businessman supplied chemicals to Saddam's regime that were later used to make poison gas. Saddam then used it on the Kurds and the Iranians. The other ingredients for poison gas were supplied by the British and the Americans. Current secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld shook hands with Saddam in the eighties while the deliveries of ingredients were being made.

Now here's the little difference in our two countries:

The dutch businessman is going to be on trial.
The dutch government is pushing for the trial, through our version of your supreme court.

Donald Rumsfeld is one of the main advocates of the current war in Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld is in your government, that is pushing for the trial of Saddam.

and that, my friend, is what makes America great!

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
and that, my friend, is what makes America great!

I beg to differ.
In my view, that is what is dragging America's formerly respected position in the world down the drain. When patriotism no longer means that one is always proud of one's country, but only of one's government as long as it deserves it, then there is no limit to what federal officials can get away with.

 

[dilloduck]

I beg to differ.
In my view, that is what is dragging America's formerly respected position in the world down the drain. When patriotism no longer means that one is always proud of one's country, but only of one's government as long as it deserves it, then there is no limit to what federal officials can get away with.

When did America have a respected position in the world? For about a week after WWII ?

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by dilloduck:
When did America have a respected position in the world? For about a week after WWII ?

Where did you get so depressed?
Have you no clue whatsoever how much respect America commanded in Europe for nearly fifty years? Of course, Europeans have taken the piss out of American rednecks, or similar Jerry Springer parades, but that doesn't mean anything. The British have taken the piss out of the French since ages, and Dutch people are taking the piss out of every neighbouring country we have.

Don't you continuously joke about Canadians?

There is a difference between humourous remarks that may seem to undercut respect, and true bashing, which certainly undercuts respect. It surprises me that you see things that bleak.

 

[CSM]

I beg to differ.
In my view, that is what is dragging America's formerly respected position in the world down the drain. When patriotism no longer means that one is always proud of one's country, but only of one's government as long as it deserves it, then there is no limit to what federal officials can get away with.

You missed the point. The point was that apparently no country was innocent in their support of Saddam.

I would point out that many many US citizens and soldiers have been prosecuted for a lot of things including murder because of their actions in events leading up to and during this war. Such prosecutions have not done squat for the US reputation either in the Arab world or among Europeans. It is obvious to me that it doesn't matter what the US does...nothing will appease either the Europeans, the Arabs or the terrorists except the destruction of the US. Since that is not possible at this time, those entities have to settle for humiliating the US....

I find it somewhat quizzical that you state that America's formerly respected position is going down the drain. Does that indicate that you think the Netherlands position is becoming more respected in the Arab world because of this action against the Dutchman? As I said, I dont think any Arab nation or even any European nation has had any respect for the US in quite sometime.

 

[CSM]

Where did you get so depressed?
Have you no clue whatsoever how much respect America commanded in Europe for nearly fifty years? Of course, Europeans have taken the piss out of American rednecks, or similar Jerry Springer parades, but that doesn't mean anything. The British have taken the piss out of the French since ages, and Dutch people are taking the piss out of every neighbouring country we have.

Don't you continuously joke about Canadians?

There is a difference between humourous remarks that may seem to undercut respect, and true bashing, which certainly undercuts respect. It surprises me that you see things that bleak.

Interestingly enough, I tend to agree with Dillo. I would not call it depression either...I would call it realism. The European nations would love to see America be destroyed and if not destroyed, at least reduced to irrelevance both economically and militarily. I am convinced that is the case. I do not view any European nation (at least on continental Europe) as and ally of the US....

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
You missed the point. The point was that apparently no country was innocent in their support of Saddam.

If that was the point, than I agree. From previous posts on the subject I've stated that nearly every government in the world is hypocritical about the whole situation. And since that is so, so are the populations of those countries.

Originally posted by CSM:
I find it somewhat quizzical that you state that America's formerly respected position is going down the drain. Does that indicate that you think the Netherlands position is becoming more respected in the Arab world because of this action against the Dutchman? As I said, I dont think any Arab nation or even any European nation has had any respect for the US in quite sometime.

That is what I don't get.
Where do you get the idea that Dutch people or any other European country would hate/revile/despise America? We do revile some decisions by your government; for one, most western countries have invested greatly in evermore efficient engines for their cars - most use one liter of gasoline to drive 20 kilometers nowadays. Whereas the American nation has decided that a car that drinks more gasoline is more manly or whatever, and they have introduced the civilian hummer, that needs one liter of gasoline to drive two kilometres. To us, that seems like a reduction in technology, and a disrespect for nature.

And so on and so forth. But that does not in any way mean that Europeans have dreamed of your country's destruction for decades. It merely means that American policy on a lot of subjects is despised in Europe. Despising a lot of policy does not equal despising the entire country or it's entire population.

Originally posted by CSM:
I do not view any European nation (at least on continental Europe) as and ally of the US....

To me that sounds very strange.
It actually saddens me that people on the board think this way. That people have already decided that America is alone in the world, against everybody else that secretly wishes for America's destruction. That America should trust no-one, and would be wise to act unilaterally and pre-emptively destroy whatever country that obstructs it's path to greatness. To me that sounds like the Project for the New American Century's dream: to have civilians that actually think this way.

If continental Europe is not an ally, does that mean by definition of your president's words: "You're either with us, or against us" that we are enemies instead? That we should go to war over differences in opinion?

Or is there a less black and white stance on the matter of alliances?

 

[CSM]

If that was the point, than I agree. From previous posts on the subject I've stated that nearly every government in the world is hypocritical about the whole situation. And since that is so, so are the populations of those countries.

That is what I don't get.
Where do you get the idea that Dutch people or any other European country would hate/revile/despise America? We do revile some decisions by your government; for one, most western countries have invested greatly in evermore efficient engines for their cars - most use one liter of gasoline to drive 20 kilometers nowadays. Whereas the American nation has decided that a car that drinks more gasoline is more manly or whatever, and they have introduced the civilian hummer, that needs one liter of gasoline to drive two kilometres. To us, that seems like a reduction in technology, and a disrespect for nature.

First, let me say that not everyone in the US owns a Hummer, in fact, I know few that do. Some auto manufacturers in the US (GM for example) are now paying the price for assuming that Americans want gas guzzlers...the fact is they don't. Secondly, the actions taken by the governments of Europe are the underlying cause for my view on Europe. I have lived and travelled extensively in Europe....I aw many hands there willing to take American dollars, but few smiles or gestures of friendship. Third, Europe is as polluted (if not more so) than the US is. so respect for nature is not exactly a European strong point in any argument.

And so on and so forth. But that does not in any way mean that Europeans have dreamed of your country's destruction for decades. It merely means that American policy on a lot of subjects is despised in Europe. Despising a lot of policy does not equal despising the entire country or it's entire population.

There is no doubt in my mind that European opposition to US policy is based on European governments looking out for their own interests. I know of no European country that wants what is best for the US. I disagree with your supposition that the hate for US policy does not translate into the hate for an entire country or its people.....especially in the case of the US, which is a democratic society. It's just too short a jump.

To me that sounds very strange.
It actually saddens me that people on the board think this way. That people have already decided that America is alone in the world, against everybody else that secretly wishes for America's destruction. What you describe is the beginnings of the isolationism that is about to overtake the US as a general philosophy. You can thank all the US bashing and criticism from the powers that be. That America should trust no-one, and would be wise to act unilaterally and pre-emptively destroy whatever country that obstructs it's path to greatness. I do not think that from here on you will see the US attacking anyone preemptively or seeking "the path to greatness". I do think we should trust no-one and most certainly think the US should act unilaterally in regards to the best interests of the United States.To me that sounds like the Project for the New American Century's dream: to have civilians that actually think this way.

If continental Europe is not an ally, does that mean by definition of your president's words: "You're either with us, or against us" that we are enemies instead? That we should go to war over differences in opinion? It is not the differences of opinion. It is the underhanded, backstabbing dealings that other countries seem to have but one goal...the neutering of the US as a world power, and at the very least the humiliation of this country and its people. Oh and by the way, the economic defeat of capitalism. I do not think war is necessary, especially now that we know where Europeans stand in regard to the US. I can tolerate Europe, just dont ask for any US aid in ANYTHING....

Or is there a less black and white stance on the matter of alliances?

Alliances are a matter of convenience ... particularly from a European point of view. The actions of their governments tell me this is true. Harma, even your philosophy on discipline in the military shows that attitude. In essence, you indicate that you will follow orders as long as you are in agreement with those orders; you reserve the right to determine what is an "insane" order and the motivation behind any order (from the "he just doesn't like my face" remark). That attitude is very evident on a much larger scale among European governments. That is why some European countries had no problem in dealing with Saddam despite the UN resolutions.

 

[padisha emperor]

what does "to take the piss out of somebody" mean ?

 

[Annie]

Alliances are a matter of convenience ... particularly from a European point of view. The actions of their governments tell me this is true. Harma, even your philosophy on discipline in the military shows that attitude. In essence, you indicate that you will follow orders as long as you are in agreement with those orders; you reserve the right to determine what is an "insane" order and the motivation behind any order (from the "he just doesn't like my face" remark). That attitude is very evident on a much larger scale among European governments. That is why some European countries had no problem in dealing with Saddam despite the UN resolutions.

Yep, I too think we are on the brink of returning to isolationism, which has not been good for the world, especially the Europeans in the past. I do think it's going to happen.

Related:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27035&highlight=canadian+sane

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by padisha emperor:
what does "to take the piss out of somebody" mean ?

It's Britsh slang, and it means something like "making fun of someone" or "joking about someone", kind of like "the Dutch are cheapskates".

 

[Avatar4321]

Yep, I too think we are on the brink of returning to isolationism, which has not been good for the world, especially the Europeans in the past. I do think it's going to happen.

Related:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27035&highlight=canadian+sane

Honestly, Im not so sure about the isolationism. I think that we will more than likely have a civil war that will force us to isolate ourselves till the rest of the world decides to use the opportunity to conquor us and divide us up.

In fact, I think this will all happen sooner than later. sighs.