Zone1 The mistranslations of original Greek words into "forever", "eternal", "everlasting", etc.

[K9Buck]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

 

[Libby von H]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

I wnt over that in class once for my students.

IN this forum all I can say is
THe Church is the one to rule on that, without ruling on word studies or particular pericopes.
THe difficulty comes up clearest in the parable by Jesus on the Unforgiving Servant
The 'Parable of the Unforgiving Servant' is from the Christian Bible: Matthew 18:21-35
The debt was enormous and the Parable ends : 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

That in itself could be eternal, a very very long time, OR since it is directed to those still living, it could be an underlining of the need for Mercy, put in the most self-serving terms

 

[K9Buck]

THe Church is the one to rule on that...

I'm sorry. Who specifically do you believe to be the arbiter of what is accurate in the scriptures?

 

[Clyde 154]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

Logical Fallacy: Simply because the Kingdom is given back to the Father (the end of Jesus' reign as King) is no indication that the Kingdom ceased to exist, Jesus Christ simply resumes His place in the God Head as the Son of God, there is no loss of kingdom or divinity. The church...i.e, the kingdom, the bride remains in heaven for eternity in Service to the God of Creation. (Rev. 4:10)

When read in context, based upon the actual content of the entire chapter we find the "END" mentioned is the End of the Physical Realm, not the Spiritual Realm of Jesus Christ.

The scriptures are clear.......the end comes when DEATH/HADES/THE GRAVE is defeated, the last thing in our physical reality to be defeated is DEATH......then comes the END....and the Final Judgment, at which time Hades/the grave gives up its dead for final judgement. (Rev.20:13)

 

[Libby von H]

I'm sorry. Who specifically do you believe to be the arbiter of what is accurate in the scriptures?

You expose yourself by saying that. If lexicographers say it can mean eternal but also not eternal then you're sht on toast , right.
IF there are no authorities your question is meaningless, and if the word is polysemic, as most words are, then the use MUST BE ARBITRATED by those who authorized them as Scripture.

 

[K9Buck]

Logical Fallacy: Simply because the Kingdom is given back to the Father (the end of Jesus' reign as King) is no indication that the Kingdom ceased to exist

The kingdom will have no end but Jesus's reign will have an end, per the verse provided. Meanwhile another verse says Jesus rules forever. They both come from the KJV and contradict themselves.

 

[K9Buck]

You expose yourself by saying that. If lexicographers say it can mean eternal but also not eternal then you're sht on toast , right.
IF there are no authorities your question is meaningless, and if the word is polysemic, as most words are, then the use MUST BE ARBITRATED by those who authorized them as Scripture.

You're too angry, emotional, and cult-like to engage in any honest, rationale, discussion.

 

[Cougarbear]

The kingdom will have no end but Jesus's reign will have an end, per the verse provided. Meanwhile another verse says Jesus rules forever. They both come from the KJV and contradict themselves.

Well, there is sometimes unclear translations into English. They way I see 1Cor. chapter 15, The Kingdom is given to the Father because that's what Jehovah told the Father he would do. He would come down off his throne for the glory of the Father. In return, those of us who are resurrected into the Celestial glory (verse 40) will be redeemed to Christ for he bought and paid for our sins through our repentance and faith in Him. So, for those Celestial bodies (people), Christ continues to reign.
Those that think they find contradictions actually don't. They find misunderstandings from weak translations. Wouldn't it be great to have a second witness that testifies of Christ's eternal reign forever and ever? There is. It's the second witness of Jesus Christ, The Book of Mormon.

 

[Clyde 154]

Logical Fallacy: Simply because the Kingdom is given back to the Father (the end of Jesus' reign as King) is no indication that the Kingdom ceased to exist, Jesus Christ simply resumes His place in the God Head as the Son of God, there is no loss of kingdom or divinity. The church...i.e, the kingdom, the bride remains in heaven for eternity in Service to the God of Creation. (Rev. 4:10

The kingdom will have no end but Jesus's reign will have an end, per the verse provided. Meanwhile another verse says Jesus rules forever. They both come from the KJV and contradict themselves.

I have read numerous translations to include King James, the New King James, American Standard, New American Standard, the modern English Standard (Esv). and no where is the language found that states Jesus' reign is over, the correct translation in any legitimate translation simply stated, "THEN COMES THE END".........and the End spoken of is explained within the context and content of the entire passage.

New American Standard. The subject of the passage begins with Verse 20, 1 Cor. 15. Explaining how the Christ was the first to defeat Death/the Grave/Hades......the scriptures explain that through one's man's death (Adam) death came upon all men. "As in Adam all die, so also through Christ, all live........" -- 1 Cor. 15:22-24 Christ is the first fruit, (the first and only man to defeat death) .......but, AFTER THAT ALL THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST'S, AT HIS COMING, the final judgement -- Rev. 20:13...." Based upon the context and content........the defeat of death ushers in the FINAL JUDGEMENT....the END, as Jesus must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. Explained with no ambiguity......The LAST ENEMY IS DEATH/GRAVE/HADES, (1 Cor. 15:24-26

THE END? Final Judgement.......death is defeated. Jesus was and is God (John 1) Jesus created all things both spiritual and physical........He created the worlds and existed before time itself existed. (Col. 1:16) Jesus has no beginning nor ending, He is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8). The fullness of the "Godhead" dwells within Him (Col. 2:9)



Just as explained.........the reign of Jesus Christ as having "all authority on earth and in heaven" given Him by the Father (Matt. 28:18-20, Matthew 16), lasts through eternity, Eternity of the physical ends when Jesus returns........to bind on earth what is bound in heaven, ENDS, once Death/Hades/the Grave has been defeated. Its a most difficult thing to rule a kingdom on earth when there is no earth to rule, after the JUDGEMENT, the end of all things physical to include death, Jesus' final enemy. (1 Cor. 15, Rev. 20:13)

Physical eternity lasts only as long as Physical Reality exists. The Eternity of Jesus' physical kingdom....the church on earth ends when Jesus returns and the earth and all things in are judged. "By the same word the heavens and the earth THAT NOW EXISTS are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly...............but, the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens (sky, atmosphere, stars, planets...etc) will pass away with a ROAR (Remember? Then COMES THE END.....implied, physical reality ceases to exist, it ends at Jesus' return and final judgment)........the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved......and the earth and all its works shall be exposed........(2 Peter 3:7-13)

Then a new heaven and a new earth (spiritual Jerusalem -- Rev. 21:9-17) will be established. The Bride of Christ......those saved through Christ's kingdom will be serving God in heaven for all eternity, in New Jerusalem.

 

[Libby von H]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

Knowing the Bible languages I of course know that line of argument BUT you must at least know that the original audience, incl original speaker , DID see the difference. I had a Jeusit who was considered the greatest Bible explicator of his generation. He was often informed for abstruse language questions by another Jesuit,also my teacher -- and though it was decades ago, I still remember both of them making the point that the merest Greek shepherd boy would detect things in his native language that the best modern non-Greek would miss.
But your point inverts things. To be a Jew or a Christian was to have an authority that knew what was and wasn't the Faith. You assume people got it from the BIble. Most never saw one and those that did only saw it as sacred because of the 'church' that they belonged to

 

[Libby von H]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

That discussion goes back to Jerome and to Augustine but don't think that because it "CAN" mean not eternal that it cannot mean 'eternal' , that is the mistake most commonly made.

 

[Cougarbear]

That discussion goes back to Jerome and to Augustine but don't think that because it "CAN" mean not eternal that it cannot mean 'eternal' , that is the mistake most commonly made.

You may misunderstand the relationship of the Father and the Son. The Son never rose above His Father in Heaven. He will always be directed and will always give glory of everything to the Father. He said so many times. So, the Glory was given to the Father but Jesus still reigns over Israel. We literally become Christ's redeemed children. That's why Christ is sometimes referred to as our Father. Not the Father of our Spirits but the Father of our resurrected bodies. So, there is no contradiction here.

Your second attempt at a contradiction doesn't fly either. First, the word "All" doesn't mean everyone or 100% of all mankind. In fact, in verse 10 it says "specially" meaning specifically those that believe in Christ. Those that end up in everlasting punishment after the judgment day are those that did not believe. In fact, they denied the Holy Ghost. I can't believe how you take things out of context so badly.

 

[Libby von H]

You may misunderstand the relationship of the Father and the Son. The Son never rose above His Father in Heaven. He will always be directed and will always give glory of everything to the Father. He said so many times. So, the Glory was given to the Father but Jesus still reigns over Israel. We literally become Christ's redeemed children. That's why Christ is sometimes referred to as our Father. Not the Father of our Spirits but the Father of our resurrected bodies. So, there is no contradiction here.

Your second attempt at a contradiction doesn't fly either. First, the word "All" doesn't mean everyone or 100% of all mankind. In fact, in verse 10 it says "specially" meaning specifically those that believe in Christ. Those that end up in everlasting punishment after the judgment day are those that did not believe. In fact, they denied the Holy Ghost. I can't believe how you take things out of context so badly.

Only you see Son as meaning inferior. The Trinity is co-equal.

Then you believe baptized babies don't go to heaven when they die young.
Context ? I am talkiing about the ancient Faith of the Church

God intends ALL to be saved, whether they are or not is why we have a religion and life on earth.

 

[Libby von H]

Erroneous translations lead to Bible translations that contradict themselves as well as creating erroneous doctrines.

Examples? Ok. I'll use the King James Version (KJV).

Luke 1:33 KJV
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So one verse in the KJV says that Jesus will rule forever and then another verse in the KJV says that Jesus will reign "til".

So which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Here is another.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, which verse is correct? They can't both be correct. One verse says that people are sent away to forever punishment. Another verse says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people. How can Jesus be the savior of ALL people if some people are punished forever?

Mainstream Christians will perform a gymnastics routine trying to contort these verses into being consistent with one another. There are more, but I think you get the point.

Thoughts?

as any student of the Bible knows (but doesn't often have to aver ) The Faith always preceded any written Biblical account

You turn to the Church ...this is just you trying to convince everybody practice Sola Scriptura and Private INterpreation
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Now by this demonic trick of yours you deflect people from the Mercy of Jesus

 

[Cougarbear]

Only you see Son as meaning inferior. The Trinity is co-equal.

Then you believe baptized babies don't go to heaven when they die young.
Context ? I am talkiing about the ancient Faith of the Church

God intends ALL to be saved, whether they are or not is why we have a religion and life on earth.

You only interpret based on your goal of contention. I never said the Son is inferior. I said he gives all honor to his Father in Heaven. The Godhead is in one agreement in all things. There is no inferior concept in the Godhead. The Godhead doesn't look upon us as inferior either. Your choice of words is inferior. We are all subject to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But, we are not inferior or looked upon as inferior. Do you look upon your children as inferior. They are adults in embryo. We are gods in embryo and that's how God views us.

Please share where I said baptized babies don't go to heaven if they die young? Children who die before the age of accountability (8 years of age) not only go to heaven, but will reside in the highest degree of heaven, the Celestial Glory in heaven. The reason for this is not in the Bible except it has to do with Lucifer and the devil spirit children that followed Lucifer out of heaven and out of the presence of the Godhead forever. We know from present day prophets that those little ones who die were valiant spirit children of our Heavenly Parents who ushered Lucifer and the devils out of Heaven. And, Lucifer vowed to destroy them in earth life for doing this to them. So, Heavenly Father promised to save them from Lucifer and the devils. In the grand picture of the Plan of Salvation, those spirits are protected from eternal damnation by dying before they reach the age of accountability and promised eternal exalted life for how they kept their first estate before coming to the earth to receive their bodies for resurrection into the Celestial Kingdom. And, no matter where they were born nor what their parents do to them.

The Godhead gave the world the "Light of Christ" to fill the universe so that all have a choice of conscience to choose good over evil. It's with the Light of Christ that we know good from evil and then can choose which to follow. That's not religion. That's a gift of grace. What are some other graces or gifts? The ability to be forgiven of our sins and to be resurrected into one of the kingdoms in heaven as stated in First Corinthians chapter 15. That is a gift for keeping our first estate and following Michael, the Arc Angel, down to earth to receive physical bodies in preparation of the resurrection. Michael became Adam, the father of our physical bodies. With these gifts, most all will be saved in the end from eternal damnation in Perdition with Satan (Lucifer). Only those who deny the Holy Ghost will not be saved.

 

[Clyde 154]

Its more than ridiculous to promote the ideology that the Word of God is ESOTERIC, being comprehended only by a few self professed special people who are privy to some antiquated language lost to history, such as Latin (antiquated original tongue of Rome) or ancient Hebrew.......that has not even been used by the Jews for over 3000 years.

God wants everyone to be saved by the free gift of grace by coming to the knowledge of the Truth......with that knowledge existing in the word of God. (1 Tim. 2:4-6). The real problem? The majority of humanity refuses to live by the advise found in the Word of God. God condemns no one.........condemnation is a free will choice.

If you want the Holy Spirit of God to live within you and guide your steps.............READ THE BOOK written by His inspiration (2 Tim. 3:16-17) don't expect some magical confirmation from Heaven, heaven exists within the confines of your Heart (Luke 17:21) its an invisible spiritual kingdom that exists for the Spirit not your physical flesh (everyone dies, everyone suffers, children die every day, innocent people lose their lives every day through no fault of their own........God has no respect of person (Rom. 2:11-16), the sinner and the saint are God's creation, no one is superior because they believe, they are simply accepting the gift of God (God gave His only Begotten Son.......to stand in as sin for the world) -- John 3:16, 1 Peter 2:24, 2 Phil. 2:7-10