The love of God and the need for an atonement

[onefour1]

I don't believe God is a petty vindictive tyrant. If he were, He would not want us to have free will. Yet we do have free will. God wanted his children to be and to have the best that he could give them due to his love for his children. The best thing God could do is teach us to become more like himself. God himself being a free will being, made sure that his children had free will. You can't become like God unless you have free will to choose for yourself. God is a being of free will. Nobody tells God what to do. He does what he does of his own choosing. For us to become like God, it was essential that God give us free will to choose Good over evil. Only then can we learn to be like him and learn to choose, in and of ourselves, to be good beings.

Do we really have free will? It is claimed that God knows the future. If that is true he knows before I do what actions I will take. God created me with the knowledge of everything I would do and say. How does that mesh with me having free will? Where does Hell come into it? Do I really have free will if I'm to be punished for exercising it?

Let me go through each of your questions one at a time.

Knowing what you will do with your free will (even in advance) is different from coercing you to do something. Surely if God knows what you will do in advance and was willing to use force, he would definitely change your bad behavior into good behavior. But he doesn't. He allows you to continue to do what you will. He knows that forcing you to do things is not going to develop your character to be good. Only through you personally choosing to do good would you become a good being. So even though God knows that you will choose evil, he allows it because he has given you that freedom. I know that if I don't feed my dog for a day and then put a hamburger in front of him that he will, with near certainty, eat the hamburger. Now as a human, who doesn't have a perfect knowledge, my dog might be very sick and not want to eat. But 9 times out of 10 he will eat the hamburger. In this way I can almost predict the future. Now if you take God, who knows everything, he would know if the dog were sick. He would know what every molecule in the universe would do and how everything thought and felt about other things. He would know with absolute certainty what the dog or anyone of us would do. By the fact that he is all knowing, he would certainly know the future without interfering in the free will of others. He simply knows what choices you will make.

If God allowed the wicked to do wickedly without consequence, then the wicked would also be able to rule in the universe and heaven would not be such a heavenly place. God is a god of order and law. He rules in righteousness. He doesn't allow the wicked to come into the kingdom of heaven. They would not be willing to live a celestial law. They would need to go to another kingdom more fit for their lawlessness. The punishments that mankind receives are in accord with what they are willing to do as free will beings. However, God rules all kingdoms. He cannot allow wickedness to reign. Some will inherit a celestial glory and rule over those of lower kingdoms. Some will inherit a terrestrial glory and rule over those who inhabit lesser kingdoms. Some will inherit a telestial glory which is the lowest of the kingdoms of glory. Then there are those who will inherit a kingdom without glory where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Depending on your level of goodness, you will inherit the kingdom you deserve and the glory you deserve. You have free will to choose the kingdom you wish to reside in. However, you do not have unlimited free will to do evil without consequence. It would be like letting your child do drugs in your home or whatever evil he wished to do. God will not allow the wicked to overthrow his kingdom but will maintain order according to his righteousness in his universe. For a detailed revelation on the kingdoms of glory, read Doctrine and Covenants 76.

 

[ninja007]

Is Mormonism a cult?
by Matt Slick

Yes, Mormonism is a non-christian cult. Mormonism denies the doctrines that make Christianity what it is, and it substitutes their new and different doctrines that are not taught in the Bible. For example, the Bible says there's only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5), but Mormonism says there are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). See also, "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).1 Furthermore, Mormonism teaches that the Trinity is three separate gods (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage page 35) and that salvation is attained through obedience to the law and doing good works (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W Kimball, page 206). In fact, in their book Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, page 188, it says there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Joseph Smith, of course, is the founder of Mormonism.

Mormonism, also called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), teaches the following non-Christian, non-biblical doctrines. (Note that all the documentation is taken from Mormon writers and Mormon scriptures).

• God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
• God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
• "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).
• God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
• "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
• After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
• There is a mother goddess, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
• God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
• The Trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

In contrast to these teachings, the Bible teaches that God has always been God and was never a man (Psalm 90:2). The Bible nowhere says he lives near another star, or that the Father has a body of flesh and bones - which Christ contradicted in John 4:24 and Luke 24:39. We do not have the potential of becoming gods because there are no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5). The Trinity is one God (Deut. 6:4) - not three.

In addition, Mormonism teaches that the forgiveness of sins obtained by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church. Now I stated this above but it needs to be reiterated here because this is another teaching that makes Mormonism non-Christian. Please consider the following.

• "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 79).
• "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
• Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
• "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

In contrast to the works righteousness teachings of Mormonism, the Bible tells us that our forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone in Christ alone because it is Jesus who did everything necessary for our salvation. This is why we have the following verses.

• Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
• Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"
• Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Conclusion
So, Mormonism teaches doctrines that are in direct contradiction to the essentials of the Christian faith. it denies the true nature of God, the true nature of Christ, and the true nature of salvation. In fact, if you want to know what the Bible says are the essential doctrines, then check out the article "essential doctrines of Christianity." that article lists out the Scriptures that tell us what the essentials of the faith are. Mormonism clearly contradicts those essentials.

The Mormons will claim they are Christians because they say they follow the Jesus of the Bible, in reality, they are following a false Christ. Jesus is not the brother of the devil as Mormonism teaches. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Jesus did not atone for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane as Mormonism teaches2. Instead, he did it on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

Finally, we do not hate the Mormons, and we pray for their repentance, that they would stop believing in false gods. We want them to believe in the true God and the true Christ and the true gospel. But, unfortunately, Mormonism has deceived millions of people and it is most definitely not Christian. Mormonism is a non-Christian cult.

Is Mormonism a cult? | CARM.org

 

[alang1216]

Is Mormonism a cult?

There are two points here, one is Is Mormonism a cult and the other is Is Mormonism Christian.

To me, a cult is a group that follows a charismatic individual. Almost no one is born into a cult, it is something you join. Most cults disappear on the death of the founder or soon after. The opposite of a cult is a church. Most are born into a church. By my definition, Mormonism is not a cult but an established church.

I'm not a Christian so I get to sit back and enjoy when 'Christians' debate just who is a Christian. I think every Christian has their own definition but is hard pressed to say who IS a Christian. However, they seem to know precisely who is NOT a Christian.

 

[alang1216]

Knowing what you will do with your free will (even in advance) is different from coercing you to do something.

I was formed from an egg and sperm. There were billions of sperm trying to fertilize that egg. Did God know which one would get the job done?

If he did, he could just as easily have let a different one succeed. I think he has to take some responsibility for choosing that particular winner knowing as he did the certainty the fate of that individual. If I build a clock that doesn't keep good time I can't honestly blame the clock.

If God didn't know which sperm would win the race he is not omniscient. If he is not, what else about him have we gotten wrong?

 

[Meriweather]

Knowing what you will do with your free will (even in advance) is different from coercing you to do something.

I was formed from an egg and sperm. There were billions of sperm trying to fertilize that egg. Did God know which one would get the job done?

If he did, he could just as easily have let a different one succeed. I think he has to take some responsibility for choosing that particular winner knowing as he did the certainty the fate of that individual. If I build a clock that doesn't keep good time I can't honestly blame the clock.

If God didn't know which sperm would win the race he is not omniscient. If he is not, what else about him have we gotten wrong?

We get everything about God wrong, because we pursue definitions for our words to the point that they are illogical. Perhaps start with logic. God can bring good from evil. This being the case, would God be disturbed by a less than perfect sperm/egg combination?

 

[alang1216]

We get everything about God wrong, because we pursue definitions for our words to the point that they are illogical. Perhaps start with logic. God can bring good from evil. This being the case, would God be disturbed by a less than perfect sperm/egg combination?

If we get everything about God wrong, my logic would say God can NOT bring good from evil. But, of course, that is wrong. Are we both wrong about God?

Assuming God can bring good from evil it is obvious he often chooses evil. What does that say about him?

 

[Meriweather]

If we get everything about God wrong, my logic would say God can NOT bring good from evil. But, of course, that is wrong. Are we both wrong about God?

Assuming God can bring good from evil it is obvious he often chooses evil. What does that say about him?

Yes, we are all "wrong" about God to the degree we acknowledge His ways are as far from our ways as are the heavens from the earth. Being human, we will see God from a human perspective. As far as God "choosing" evil, that like saying a gardener chooses for weeds to grow. The fact is, a good gardener knows how to deal with weeds and they are not that much of a bother. God knows how to deal with evil, so what do you believe that says about God?

 

[alang1216]

As far as God "choosing" evil, that like saying a gardener chooses for weeds to grow. The fact is, a good gardener knows how to deal with weeds and they are not that much of a bother. God knows how to deal with evil, so what do you believe that says about God?

The gardener removes the weeds as soon as possible so they don't adversely impact the other plants. God does just the opposite, he allows evil to flourish. He allowed a Hitler to murder innocent children, children that never got the opportunity to learn good from evil.

 

[Meriweather]

The gardener removes the weeds as soon as possible so they don't adversely impact the other plants. God does just the opposite, he allows evil to flourish. He allowed a Hitler to murder innocent children, children that never got the opportunity to learn good from evil.

Why do you believe it should be God who serves as this world's police?

 

[alang1216]

Why do you believe it should be God who serves as this world's police?

We're his creations so I'd think we're his responsibility.

If this world is a proving ground as you say, why doesn't everyone get an opportunity to prove themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

We're his creations so I'd think we're his responsibility.

If this world is a proving ground as you say, why doesn't everyone get an opportunity to prove themselves.

I don't recall ever saying this world is a proving ground. I don't see how what we do is God's responsibility.

 

[alang1216]

We're his creations so I'd think we're his responsibility.

If this world is a proving ground as you say, why doesn't everyone get an opportunity to prove themselves.

I don't recall ever saying this world is a proving ground. I don't see how what we do is God's responsibility.

You wrote:

"So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil"​

God is responsible for setting the rules.

 

[Meriweather]

We're his creations so I'd think we're his responsibility.

If this world is a proving ground as you say, why doesn't everyone get an opportunity to prove themselves.

I don't recall ever saying this world is a proving ground. I don't see how what we do is God's responsibility.

You wrote:

"So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil"​

God is responsible for setting the rules.

No, I did not write that. Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[alang1216]

We're his creations so I'd think we're his responsibility.

If this world is a proving ground as you say, why doesn't everyone get an opportunity to prove themselves.

I don't recall ever saying this world is a proving ground. I don't see how what we do is God's responsibility.

You wrote:

"So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil"​

God is responsible for setting the rules.

No, I did not write that. Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else.

You're quite right, my apologies.

 

[onefour1]

Is Mormonism a cult?
by Matt Slick

Yes, Mormonism is a non-christian cult. Mormonism denies the doctrines that make Christianity what it is, and it substitutes their new and different doctrines that are not taught in the Bible. For example, the Bible says there's only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5), but Mormonism says there are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). See also, "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).1 Furthermore, Mormonism teaches that the Trinity is three separate gods (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage page 35) and that salvation is attained through obedience to the law and doing good works (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W Kimball, page 206). In fact, in their book Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, page 188, it says there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Joseph Smith, of course, is the founder of Mormonism.

Isaiah states

Isaiah 43:10
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:5
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

God is speaking to those who are on the earth. What he is saying is that to those of us on earth there was no other God formed before or after Him. The bible tells us that there are many gods.

Psalm 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:22-23
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Regarding the quote, "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light,", we read in Genesis:

Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is us?

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We LDS believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate beings who, as members of the Godhead, form a quorum and thus each one is called God but Jesus only speak and does that which his Father would have him do,

John 5:19,30
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
...
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Yet on earth and in heaven we see the separateness of the Father and Son:

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Salvation is attained through the grace of Jesus Christ by the exercise of faith in him unto repentance and keeping the commandments of God.

James 2:14-20
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And what is his will?

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Mormonism

, also called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), teaches the following non-Christian, non-biblical doctrines. (Note that all the documentation is taken from Mormon writers and Mormon scriptures).

• God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
• God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
• "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).
• God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
• "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
• After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
• There is a mother goddess, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
• God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
• The Trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

We not only believe that God used to be a man but that he is still a man. He is the Man of Holiness. And his Only Begotten Son in the Flesh is also known as the Son of Man.

See Son of Man in the Bible

It has been revealed through revelation to a modern prophet that God does reside near a sphere called Kolob.

Yes, we believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Jesus looks exactly like his Father.

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

If Jesus is the express image of the Father's person, then all we need know is what Jesus is like:

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

It is odd that those who do not believe that Jesus and the Father are separate beings still don't believe that God has a body.

It has been revealed in these Last Days that God was once a man on his own earth and progressed to become like his Father in Heaven.

Again it is odd that those who do not believe that Jesus and the Father are separate beings don't believe that God was on an earth as a man.

The marriage between a man and a woman is sacred and holy and if sealed by the power of the priesthood in this life can extend beyond the grave.

Matthew 19:6
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:9
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

How many times does it mention in the bible that God the Father is our father? Is it that far out there to believe that man and woman have and eternal destiny together?

1 Corinthians 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

In contrast to these teachings, the Bible teaches that God has always been God and was never a man (Psalm 90:2). The Bible nowhere says he lives near another star, or that the Father has a body of flesh and bones - which Christ contradicted in John 4:24 and Luke 24:39. We do not have the potential of becoming gods because there are no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5). The Trinity is one God (Deut. 6:4) - not three.

Psalms 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

What do you suppose the phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" means? How could you go from everlasting to everlasting? What this verse means is that before this temporary life in this world God existed and when this temporary life is over, God will still be God. The existence before this mortal world was eternity. The existence after this world will again be eternity. Thus God is from eternity to all eternity or from everlasting to everlasting. All this is saying is that he was before the world was and will still be God after this mortal world is gone. It doesn't refer to him being God for an infinite past. It is saying that he was God from the eternity past to the eternity in the future.

Lets look and see if Christ really contradicts that the Father has a body of flesh and bones:

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This verse refers to the Holy Ghost who is a personage of Spirit. This why one needs to have the gift of the Holy Ghost conferred upon him to worship God in spirit and truth.

Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This verse refers to the resurrection Jesus and how he does have a body of flesh and bones.

Again, it is odd that those who do not believe that Jesus and the Father are separate beings still don't believe that God has a body.

John 5:19,30
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

If Jesus only does what the Father does, then wouldn't that mean that the Father resurrected with a body of flesh and bones?

Jesus is the express image of the person of the Father according to Hebrews 1:3.

A revelation given through the prophet Joseph Smith tells us:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

In addition, Mormonism teaches that the forgiveness of sins obtained by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church. Now I stated this above but it needs to be reiterated here because this is another teaching that makes Mormonism non-Christian. Please consider the following.

• "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 79).
• "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
• Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
• "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

In contrast to the works righteousness teachings of Mormonism, the Bible tells us that our forgiveness of sins is accomplished by faith alone in Christ alone because it is Jesus who did everything necessary for our salvation. This is why we have the following verses.

• Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
• Romans 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"
• Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Three verses after Romans 3:28 we read:

Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The reason Paul teaches this is because there were many in his day that thought they would save themselves by simply keeping the law without having faith in Jesus Christ. But faith itself requires that we do good works according to James 2:14-20. But it is not the works that save us. We are only saved through the grace of Jesus Christ. But Jesus requires a true faith before he will save you into the kingdom of God. The works don't do the saving but they are required of us by the Lord before he will do the saving.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Conclusion

So, Mormonism teaches doctrines that are in direct contradiction to the essentials of the Christian faith. it denies the true nature of God, the true nature of Christ, and the true nature of salvation. In fact, if you want to know what the Bible says are the essential doctrines, then check out the article "essential doctrines of Christianity." that article lists out the Scriptures that tell us what the essentials of the faith are. Mormonism clearly contradicts those essentials.

The Mormons will claim they are Christians because they say they follow the Jesus of the Bible, in reality, they are following a false Christ. Jesus is not the brother of the devil as Mormonism teaches. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Jesus did not atone for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane as Mormonism teaches2. Instead, he did it on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

Finally, we do not hate the Mormons, and we pray for their repentance, that they would stop believing in false gods. We want them to believe in the true God and the true Christ and the true gospel. But, unfortunately, Mormonism has deceived millions of people and it is most definitely not Christian. Mormonism is a non-Christian cult.

Is Mormonism a cult? | CARM.org

In the Garden of Gethsemane the following took place:

Luke 22:43-44
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

If it all took place on the cross, why did an angel need to strengthen him in the garden? Why was Jesus in such agony that he sweated great drops of blood? It was in the garden that Jesus took upon himself the sins of all the world. As he carried that anguish, he was crucified and gave up his life that he might be the first of all of God's children to resurrect. The atonement began in the garden and lasted through his crucifixion.

If you want to know what the Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are, you don't go to the anti-mormon site of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry to find out. You go to the source LDS.org.

 

[Taz]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will give you my perspective on what I believe to be the greatest act of love ever. I served a mission for the church and after returning I attended a university class on the philosophy of religion. The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being. I agreed with this premise. He then posed the question, "If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?" At first I didn't know how to answer this. So naturally, being a religious person, I turned to prayer and study of the scriptures. Several months went by and I still didn't have an answer. The class ended but the problem still plagued me. After about 5 months I got my answer. It was an answer to my Instructor's question and also an answer to the philosophical issue of the "Problem of Evil". The "Problem of Evil" asks, "If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he allow evil in the world?"

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist. Just as the spirit enters the body, the intelligence enters the spirit. But that part that is known as intelligence has always existed. It is clear in scripture that our spirits are the children of God and his offspring. Jesus was the first begotten spirit unto the Father. We are his spirit brethren. But the intelligence that is housed in the spirit of man has always existed and is eternal by nature.

Thus to answer my instructor as the why God didn't create us to be perfect, I now would say that he couldn't. You cannot create that which has always existed. Therefore, you cannot create it to be perfect. God has taken these eternal intelligences and made some of them his very own spirit children. He clothes them with a spirit body and then he clothes them with a physical body. Because they are eternal by nature, God could not make them perfect. They are what they are. But God being much more advanced than these spirits, devised a plan for their progression to become like himself. Since God is a being of free will and chooses of his own volition to do good and what is right, it was essential that these spirits also have free will and learn to choose good in and of themselves in order to develop into a truly good being. Free will is the only way to allow these spirits to become like their Father who is a being of free will himself. So the plan of progression for these spirits was to teach them true and good principles and let them govern themselves. So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil.

Under this plan, God knew that mankind would fall short of being obedient to good principles. But they were Gods children and he loved them so dearly. He devised as part of his plan a means whereby if mankind would do evil and thus not be justified in returning to God's kingdom, he could repent. And if he repented he could be forgiven of his previous trespasses against the laws of God's kingdom. You see, once a person breaks the laws of the kingdom of heaven, he is not worthy and it would not be just to allow him entrance into the kingdom of heaven. God knew that all of us would fall short because we were not perfect beings by nature. God couldn't create us to be perfect and so he needed another way for his children to progress. This would mean that they learn by going to the school of hard knocks, (ie this earth). But he needed a way to allow us to learn from our mistakes. So he came up with the plan of mercy.

Since it is unjust for mankind who has broken the law of heaven to return to a kingdom that lives strictly by that law, no man or woman is justified by the law of heaven to return unto God. How does God get around his own law? He must be a just God eternally. The genius of God is in his great plan of mercy. This is his plan: He would send a being to earth who does NO sin. The Father allows this being who is his first born spirit in heaven to come to this earth and suffer to the degree of punishment for all the sins that mankind would ever commit. This person would have to be super human to be able to live through such torment and anguish. Thus he was born part God and part human. The pain that person would suffer would cause him to bleed at every pore of his body. That person is Jesus of Nazareth. He was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He lived a sinless life and when the time came for him to suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of all that suffering was on his mind:

Mark 14:33-36
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The plan of the Father was a plan of love. You see God knew that by having a person who was without sin suffer all the pain and suffering of the world, it would be an unjust act. Jesus, as a perfect lamb without blemish, having no sin, would he deserve any of the pain and suffering that he bore? NO! He was a perfect sinless being. He did not deserve any amount of pain and suffering. Yet he suffered to the extent of the pain and suffering of all mankind. Latter-day revelation reveals:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Because of this great and eternal injustice that was brought upon the Son of Man, God the Father would of necessity, as a just God, need to recompense Jesus for his unjust pain, suffering and death. No ordinary man could have accomplished what Jesus did because all mankind were not without sin and were not an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Jesus being part God was able to withstand the sufferings in the garden and being without sin was able to bring about an injustice that needed to be recompensed to the extent of his suffering! Being part mortal, he was able to lay down his life if he so chose to do so. God the Father could not have fulfilled the atonement since he was already a resurrected being and could not lay down his life. Only his first born son in the spirit and only begotten son in the flesh who did not sin was able to accomplish this atoning sacrifice.

Now that Jesus was in a position to be recompensed, his recompense was to be able to forgive the rest of mankind for their sins if they would simply repent of them. Repentance was necessary for mankind to again live the law of heaven once he is forgiven and given entrance to the kingdom. God will not have those who will not abide a celestial law to gain entrance into his kingdom. So the atonement is based on repentance. Jesus has said:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

As a father I cannot imagine seeing my son suffer to such a degree. And i certainly cannot fathom the pain and anguish that Jesus suffered for us. Why did these two beings make such a sacrifice? Because they really do love us! It was a totally unselfish act of pure love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It would be unjust for God not to recompense Jesus for the injustice he bore. It was just that Jesus received a recompense to the extent of his sufferings. Allowing repentant sinners who have forsaken their sins into heaven is the right that Jesus has as a recompense for his unjust sufferings. The atonement allows mankind to gain entrance through Jesus' Atonement based on the principle of repentance. There is no other way for us to gain entrance only in and through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

May our thoughts be turned to our Savior during this season of celebration of his coming into the world!

Jesus wasn't born in December, xmas is a roman holiday turned religious.

Btw, I hear that you never take off your "special" underwear. So do you shower with it, or put it in the washer? And do you take it off to have sex? Just curious.

 

[onefour1]

I never said he was born in December. But yes, you are right. Many of us LDS believe that Jesus was born on April 6th. We take off our underwear to shower and we do have multiple pairs of garments and change and wash them. We are not required to wear them for absolutely every second.

 

[onefour1]

God has sent us to this temporary world where we can learn to choose good over evil. However, when you give free will to imperfect beings, you are going have evil in the world. Some will use their free will to harm others or destroy them. Some however, will learn from their mistakes and learn to follow after goodness. Having free will is the only way for mankind to become more like their Father in Heaven. You cannot become a truly good person by being forced to do so. A truly good person is one who does good of his own volition. He does not need to be coerced to do good. Because of our eternal nature, we could not be created perfect and thus the only way for mankind to progress was to learn of their own free will to be good beings. This earth became a testing ground to see who will choose good over evil. Those who choose good will pass the test, while those who choose evil will not.

As I'm sure you know, there is an ancient debate in Christianity: election vs good works. One side says we do good because God has chosen us for heaven while the other says we are chosen based on our good works. If we're elected, per Augustine, free will plays no part. If good work is the key to heaven, how does a deathbed conversion count since there are no good works. John says the only thing we need to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus, no works required.

Regarding Election, The LDS stance in our Bible Dictionary has this to say:

Election
A theological term primarily denoting God’s choice of the house of Israel to be the covenant people with privileges and responsibilities, that they might become a means of blessing to the whole world (Rom. 9:11; 11:5, 7, 28). Election is an opportunity for service and is both on a national and an individual basis. On a national basis the seed of Abraham carry the gospel to the world. But it is by individual faithfulness that it is done.

The elect are chosen even “before the foundation of the world,” yet no one is unconditionally elected to eternal life. Each must, for himself, hearken to the gospel and receive its ordinances and covenants from the hands of the servants of the Lord in order to obtain salvation. If one is elected but does not serve, his election could be said to have been in vain, as Paul expressed in 2 Cor. 6:1.

We see that elections are not all of the same kind. Since election has to do with God’s choice of persons or groups to accomplish His purposes, some may be elected by Him to one thing and some to another. Although the Lord uses certain individuals to accomplish His purposes, it does not necessarily follow that these persons will automatically receive a fulness of salvation thereby. For instance, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus fulfilled certain purposes in the economy of God, but they apparently did it for their own reasons and not as conscious acts of faith and righteousness. On the other hand, salvation of one’s soul comes only by personal integrity and willing obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus there are some elections to be desired over others. An “election of grace” spoken of in D&C 84:98–102 and Rom. 11:1–5 has reference to one’s situation in mortality; that is, being born at a time, at a place, and in circumstances where one will come in favorable contact with the gospel. This election took place in the premortal existence. Those who are faithful and diligent in the gospel in mortality receive an even more desirable election in this life and become the elect of God. These receive the promise of a fulness of God’s glory in eternity (D&C 84:33–41).

The concept held by many that God unconditionally elected some to be saved and some to be damned without any effort, action, or choice on their part is not correct, for the scriptures teach that it is only by faith and obedience that one’s calling and election is made sure (2 Pet. 1; D&C 131:5). See also Abraham, covenant of.
​

Regarding belief, a true belief is one in which the follower does have faith unto good works. One who only pays lip service and is not willing to follow the teachings of Christ does not really have a true belief. it is through faith, which includes good works, that we obtain the grace of our Lord.

Regarding deathbed conversion, Only God is able to judge the true intent a person. However, in the LDS faith we believe that once a person dies, as a spirit, they either go to spirit paradise or spirit prison and await their judgement and resurrection. Those in spirit paradise are sent to those in spirit prison and teach the gospel of to them. On earth, we research geneology and perform necessary ordinances for the dead in our temples. Such ordinances as baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, ordination to the priesthood, and eternal marriage to their spouse. These ordinances are only of effect if the dead person accepts the gospel and the ordinances in the world of spirits. We believe that Jesus himself, during the time he was in the tomb before his resurrection, went to the spirits in the spirit world and set up the teaching of the gospel to those in spirit prison. See Doctrine and Covenants 138

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

​

 

[onefour1]

God knew that we would make mistakes since we were not perfect and we had been given free will. Mankind at some point in this world would choose evil and not be worthy of God's kingdom. God knew this way in advance. For this reason he provided a Savior before the foundation of the earth which would allow us the opportunity to repent of our sins and turn toward goodness and obtain mercy.

That Savior would have been useful to the people of Noah's time. Where was he when he was needed?

Knowledge of a Savior and the doctrine of repentance was introduced from the days of Adam. The doctrine of the atonement is retroactive. It covers all men who have come to this earth and received a body. Those in the days of Noah needed only to repent and to keep the commandments of the Lord to receive his grace. When he was needed he was there but the people in the days of Noah would not.

Moses 5:5-9
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.
9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Here are verses in the old testament that show a knowledge of a Savior:

Isaiah 43:3,11
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Hosea 13:4
4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

2 Samuel 22:3
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

Isaiah 45:15,21
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Jeremiah 14:8
8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

Isaiah 49:26
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 63:8
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

Isaiah 60:16
16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Psalm 106:21
21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;

 

[onefour1]

the selfishness and greediness of man and his lack of love for his fellowman is what brings evil in the world.

I thought we were made in God's image? How/why are we able to be selfish and greedy if they are not a part of God? It almost seems that God added a few extras when he made man.

One of the points in the original post on this thread is that a part of man is self-existent and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. It is known as the intelligence of man. God never created man's intelligence. It has always existed. It just so happens that it is not in a perfect state. Thus, the intelligence being self-existent, could not be created or made, was entered into the spirits of man were to develop and progress not by creation but by learning to choose good over evil.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

If God could have created us perfect, there would be no need for an atonement.

Man is made in the image of God in that we look like him. God is an exalted man. We are his children. In the same way that our children are made in our image and likeness, so to are we in the image and likeness of God. Our children don't inherit our thoughts and character but they are in our image in that they are mankind.

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 14:7-9
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.