The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[Phoenall]

Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats. Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..

The fishing boat was in Gaza's own territorial waters. The Israeli gunboat, had no legal reason to even be in the area. Why do you continue to ignore that fact?

Indeed, Israel lied about leaving Gaza in 2005. Why are the still there?

Even when they are under ceasefire Israel continues to shoot Palestinians in Gaza.

So where in gaza are the Israelis, and why are the Palestinians breaching the ceasefire terms

 

[Phoenall]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?

Nothing like hamas for starters

 

[Phoenall]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?

Any kind of united Pali Nationalism that seriously wants to improve the daily lives of their people. AND has the leadership to do more world class diplomacy and less meaningless and symbolic attacks on Israel..
Would have to breach the Hamas/Fatah break-up. My hope is that Hamas gets sucked into more interventions in Yemen, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere and loses interest in having Gaza as a trophy..

Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was a candidate for president in 2005 against Abbas. Israel did everything it could to make sure that Abbas won. We would be looking at a very different history if Dr. Barghouti had won that election.

According to islamonazi propaganda, but the facts speak louder than words.

 

[Phoenall]

Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats. Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..

The fishing boat was in Gaza's own territorial waters. The Israeli gunboat, had no legal reason to even be in the area. Why do you continue to ignore that fact?

Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
A) outside of the restricted zone
or
B) smuggling

 

[Phoenall]

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

Excuse me, but the rest of the world considers Gaza under occupation. And they've been under occupation since 1967.

If Gaza wasn't occupied, their fishermen wouldn't be getting shot at. Their farmers wouldn't be getting shot at. Humanitarian vessels would not be stopped, sailing into their ports. Gazans would be able to leave the area. Gaza is a prison. It is a prison, because the area is under occupation.

How about a link saying just that then dildo ? I can give you a link to a hamas official that says gaza has not been under occupation since 2005

You forget that there is a legal blockade in place which means that the gazan people are restricted to their own land. And the ceasefire prohibits them from entering within a set distance of Israel. Those so called humanitarian vessels carried nothing as they were just blockade runners

 

[Billo_Really]

How about a link saying just that then dildo ?

I've already given the links many times. Go back and read them again, if you need to know.

It's not my problem you have ADD.

I can give you a link to a hamas official that says gaza has not been under occupation since 2005

Interesting how you take as gospel some obtuse comment from a former Hamas official, but readily dismiss one from a current Hamas official when he says they're willing to accept a two-state solution, based on the '67 borders.

You little cherry-picking punk!

You forget that there is a legal blockade in place which means that the gazan people are restricted to their own land.

The blockade is a war crime. How is a crime against humanity, legal?

And shove that Palmer Report up you ass! They weren't even commissioned to determine its legality.

And the ceasefire prohibits them from entering within a set distance of Israel.

Israel has no jurisdiction on the Gazan side of the fence, Gazan territorial waters or airspace.

Those so called humanitarian vessels carried nothing as they were just blockade runners

The only "nothing" that is "carried", is the space between your ears.

 

[Billo_Really]

Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
A) outside of the restricted zone
or
B) smuggling

I did. I produced the video that said they were in Gazan territorial waters.

The burden of proof is now on you to produce a video that says they weren't.

 

[Billo_Really]

So where in gaza are the Israelis...

Go fishing and you'll see...

 

[aris2chat]

Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.​

90% of Palestinian factories are closed do to Israel. Much of this is food production, furniture, and clothing. The agricultural sector cannot get supplies or export their produce due to the siege. Not to mention that Israel has destroyed 1/3 of Palestine's farmland. Fishermen are not allowed to fish.

So, why do the liars call this security?

Can you back all this up ?

I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE --- just tell me what materials shipped to Gaza DISAPPEARED or were confiscated during inspection at AshDod.. Do you have ANY examples of that?
If not -- nothing else in this argument matters. What shut down the Gazan economy was the money flow being stopped from Iran and Saudi and many other places that were floating it..

I can't do propaganda vids. Life is too short. PLEASE​

Life is too short to learn anything.

Good choice.

I want to learn if the Israelis are STEALING goods bound for Gaza.. THAT'S what I want to learn.

Israel removes last significant ban on Gaza imports The Times of Israel
If there were weapons, but most of the previously banned items have been available for the last two years.
Rather puts the idea of the 'humanitarian' flotilla as a farce.

 

[aris2chat]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships. Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians. They were dredging to accommodate ships. The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.

 

[Phoenall]

How about a link saying just that then dildo ?

I've already given the links many times. Go back and read them again, if you need to know.

It's not my problem you have ADD.

I can give you a link to a hamas official that says gaza has not been under occupation since 2005

Interesting how you take as gospel some obtuse comment from a former Hamas official, but readily dismiss one from a current Hamas official when he says they're willing to accept a two-state solution, based on the '67 borders.

You little cherry-picking punk!

You forget that there is a legal blockade in place which means that the gazan people are restricted to their own land.

The blockade is a war crime. How is a crime against humanity, legal?

And shove that Palmer Report up you ass! They weren't even commissioned to determine its legality.

And the ceasefire prohibits them from entering within a set distance of Israel.

Israel has no jurisdiction on the Gazan side of the fence, Gazan territorial waters or airspace.

Those so called humanitarian vessels carried nothing as they were just blockade runners

The only "nothing" that is "carried", is the space between your ears.

No you haven't, you skirted the issue of the rest of the world saying gaza was occupied.

What '67 borders, who signed for these borders then and when where they implemented. But besides that the fact is hamas say that gaza is not occupied.

When did the ICC/ICJ declare it a war crime and start issuing arrest warrants then ?

Depends on if you accept international law or not, and international treaties that say just that.

So you admit your lack of intelligence again by resorting to personal abuse. You cant argue against facts if you don't have a leg to stand on in the first place.

 

[Phoenall]

Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
A) outside of the restricted zone
or
B) smuggling

I did. I produced the video that said they were in Gazan territorial waters.

The burden of proof is now on you to produce a video that says they weren't.

Who said ? Would it be the islamonazi propagandists that dubbed the video.....................

No youi produced no documented proof of anything as I could take the same video and remove the voice and replace it with one saying Mexican waters and US navy murderers.

 

[Phoenall]

So where in gaza are the Israelis...

Go fishing and you'll see...

I have and no Israelis have been seen.

So I repeat where are the Israeli occupation force in gaza that have total control ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships. Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians. They were dredging to accommodate ships. The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.

Your links are years old and I don't see any facts on the ground showing that these are true.

 

[flacaltenn]

Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
A) outside of the restricted zone
or
B) smuggling

I did. I produced the video that said they were in Gazan territorial waters.

The burden of proof is now on you to produce a video that says they weren't.

Didya WATCH it? Because at the end, the protesters said IN ENGLISH -- "We are International" presumably meaning they were in Intl waters and OUT of the six mile limit. Make up your mind Billo. Territorial or Intl..

If Gaza had a govt -- there would be a CLAIM to territorial waters.

 

[flacaltenn]

These Zionists are so irrational. Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.

How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?

REALLY Monte? The US did EXACTLY THAT to Iraq for 12 years under Bush1st and Clinton.. Was Iraq OCCUPIED during that period? BEFORE the ACTUAL occupation occurred under Bush2nd?

Clinton bombed them daily -- and for reasons that had more to do with his "domestic" problems than with actual necessity.. Does Egypt "occupy" Gaza?? Need an answer Monte..

 

[flacaltenn]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships. Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians. They were dredging to accommodate ships. The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.

Your links are years old and I don't see any facts on the ground showing that these are true.

One link is from 2012, and the other is from M'Aan.. At the least they show that there has been times of opening up the embargo.. You had brought up the "bell peppers".. Produce a link showing that bell peppers are banned for export. Or specific instances where they were not allowed to cross. By YOUR rules -- make sure it's recent.


MAYBE -- there was just never SURPLUS for most years to export a particular crop like bell peppers or there was too much fighting to produce a representative yield.

 

[aris2chat]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships. Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians. They were dredging to accommodate ships. The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.

Your links are years old and I don't see any facts on the ground showing that these are true.

One link is from 2012, and the other is from M'Aan.. At the least they show that there has been times of opening up the embargo.. You had brought up the "bell peppers".. Produce a link showing that bell peppers are banned for export. Or specific instances where they were not allowed to cross. By YOUR rules -- make sure it's recent.


MAYBE -- there was just never SURPLUS for most years to export a particular crop like bell peppers or there was too much fighting to produce a representative yield.

From 2007 till 2010 many exports were blocked because of hamas control of gaza. Hamas had kicked out fatah from gaza and the agreement for exports was not with hamas but the PA.

Hamas was and in some cases still is a terrorist organization. They don't want formal negotiations with Israel. Any attempts as negotiations have been through third parties.
Hamas prefers to make 'demands' and fire on Israel rather than work out any agreement. Even after ceasefires, periods of quiet, hamas does not last long before they shatter the calm and attract Israeli retaliation.

 

[flacaltenn]

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

Bell peppers exported from Gaza for first time in years
Been exporting them for years, by land.
Boats are limited to six miles, for fishing.

No deep port in gaza for large ships. Israel was in the process if building one before the hand over of gaza to the palestinians. They were dredging to accommodate ships. The original plan was more for cruise ships but a deep port could have accommodated cargo as well.

Your links are years old and I don't see any facts on the ground showing that these are true.

One link is from 2012, and the other is from M'Aan.. At the least they show that there has been times of opening up the embargo.. You had brought up the "bell peppers".. Produce a link showing that bell peppers are banned for export. Or specific instances where they were not allowed to cross. By YOUR rules -- make sure it's recent.


MAYBE -- there was just never SURPLUS for most years to export a particular crop like bell peppers or there was too much fighting to produce a representative yield.

From 2007 till 2010 many exports were blocked because of hamas control of gaza. Hamas had kicked out fatah from gaza and the agreement for exports was not with hamas but the PA.

Hamas was and in some cases still is a terrorist organization. They don't want formal negotiations with Israel. Any attempts as negotiations have been through third parties.
Hamas prefers to make 'demands' and fire on Israel rather than work out any agreement. Even after ceasefires, periods of quiet, hamas does not last long before they shatter the calm and attract Israeli retaliation.

I still had problems finding out the CURRENT rules for the blockade.. Why isn't there a precise statement of what can go in and out of Gaza? THAT -- bugs me... GREATLY..

Because it leaves room for Hamas and propaganists to claim that any old thing they confiscate can be blamed on the "illegal" Israeli blockade. And there's no reason NOT to publicly state the rules -- other than to torment and confuse the Gazans..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Your word is not proof, so produce the evidence that it was not
A) outside of the restricted zone
or
B) smuggling

I did. I produced the video that said they were in Gazan territorial waters.

The burden of proof is now on you to produce a video that says they weren't.

Didya WATCH it? Because at the end, the protesters said IN ENGLISH -- "We are International" presumably meaning they were in Intl waters and OUT of the six mile limit. Make up your mind Billo. Territorial or Intl..

If Gaza had a govt -- there would be a CLAIM to territorial waters.

"We are International" means that they are not Palestinian. Somebody like the ISM.

They notify the Israelis in hopes that they will be less trigger happy with foreign nationals.

BTW, Palestinians are allowed to fish to 20 miles by treaty.