The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.
 
Israel no longer interferes in the day to day operation of Gaza -- Except for insisting that cargo coming in gets INSPECTED and then allowed into Gaza.. Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.. Not an occupation at all. Is the US OCCUPYING RUSSIA OR IRAN today. After all they are both under US sanctions and trade restrictions right now..

Did we OCCUPY IRAQ for the 12 years this country stupidly attempted to "contain Saddam". NOTHING was going in or out and Clinton bombed them almost daily.. Were they "occupied" during those years?

It's an EMBARGO.. Supported by MANY nations besides Israel..
Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.​

90% of Palestinian factories are closed do to Israel. Much of this is food production, furniture, and clothing. The agricultural sector cannot get supplies or export their produce due to the siege. Not to mention that Israel has destroyed 1/3 of Palestine's farmland. Fishermen are not allowed to fish.


So, why do the liars call this security?

Can you back all this up ?


That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video as usual, but you cannot back up your claim. Why am I not surprised?

You know what I find really ironic Tinmore? You constantly trash Israeli sources, yet you have no problem using possibly the most biased, anti Israel full of shit Iranian owned media source.

That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video​

Typical propaganda ploy. Slime the source while ignoring the content. If you find something that is not true point it out.

If you think I am just trashing Israeli sources just say so and I will point out their lies.


I have asked you MANY times to point out their lies. The same way I have in the past pointed out Press TV lives. The fact that you use Press TV to get your information explains why you are so incredibly brainwashed.
 
Exactly, lack of information.
Now that you have taken care of my "information" deficiency and it is no longer "lacking", my comments are as follows...

Israel did not disengage from Gaza. They still maintain "effective control" over 80% of the area. That's not leaving!

The "Battle" happened because...

From your link:
Under pressure of the international sanctions, Fatah developed a plan to replace the Hamas government.

...so don't stick that on Hamas.

The suicide attacks ended in 2008.

Again, from your link:
A 2007 study of Palestinian suicide bombings during the
Second Intifada (September 2000 through August 2005) found that 39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by Hamas, 26.4 percent by Fatah, 25.7 percent by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), 5.4 percent by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and 2.7 percent by other organizations. The first suicide attack was carried out in 1989 and the attacks stopped in 2008.

So you can't blame Hamas now, for something that ended 7 years ago. Also, why are you singling out Hamas? Fatah did almost as many suicide attacks, but you say nothing about them.

Is it because Fatah has sold themselves out to be Israel's little dog *****?
That's why I said 2007..like one suicide bombing is not enough to be an act of war...or a reason to at least recall the support from such people...
You probably gonna stick to you stupid position just because you like to argue, but after reading about the Palestinians atrocities and knowing my position as well that Hamas and Fatah are double headed snake, you even have the nerve to ask me what's my problem with Hamas?
You still don't get it do?
 
NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.

And hamas retaliated by mass murdering the children of fatah members.


Just over half as many is not nearly as many in the real world
No, they did not give up all control. From Daniyel's link...

"Under the Revised Disengagement Plan adopted on June 6, 2004...Israel will continue to control Gaza's coastline and airspace and reserves the right to undertake military operations when necessary."

"After Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians were given control over the Gaza Strip, except for the borders, the airspace and the territorial waters."

That's not leaving!

In addition, Israel continued their harassment and extra-judicial killings of Hamas members...

"On 26 September, Israel assassinated Islamic Jihad commander Mohammad Khalil and his bodyguard with a missile strike; on the 29 September Israel closed all Hamas charities on the West Bank, and as part of a 5-day offensive fired artillery into the Gaza Strip."

Furthermore, Israel reneged on most of its promises from the disengagement agreement...

A British Parliamentary commission, summing up the situation eight months later, found that the Rafah crossing agreement worked efficiently, that from January–April 2006, the Karni crossing was closed 45% of the time, and severe limitations were in place on exports from Gaza, with, according to OCHA figures, only 1,500 of 8,500 tons of produce getting through; that they were informed most closures were unrelated to security issues in Gaza but either responses to violence in the West Bank or for no given reason. The promised transit of convoys between Gaza and the West Bank was not honoured;
Closures unrelated to security issues or for no given reason?

That's not giving up control!
This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
This was all about trust - they couldn't handle smaller opportunities NOT to attack Israel, sorry Billo, it wasn't your blood spilled there.
 
NOPE wrong again as in 2005 Israel gave up all control and handed gaza on a plate to the Palestinians. No blockade, no occupation and no presence inside gaza for a further 18 months.

And hamas retaliated by mass murdering the children of fatah members.


Just over half as many is not nearly as many in the real world
No, they did not give up all control. From Daniyel's link...

"Under the Revised Disengagement Plan adopted on June 6, 2004...Israel will continue to control Gaza's coastline and airspace and reserves the right to undertake military operations when necessary."

"After Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians were given control over the Gaza Strip, except for the borders, the airspace and the territorial waters."

That's not leaving!

In addition, Israel continued their harassment and extra-judicial killings of Hamas members...

"On 26 September, Israel assassinated Islamic Jihad commander Mohammad Khalil and his bodyguard with a missile strike; on the 29 September Israel closed all Hamas charities on the West Bank, and as part of a 5-day offensive fired artillery into the Gaza Strip."

Furthermore, Israel reneged on most of its promises from the disengagement agreement...

A British Parliamentary commission, summing up the situation eight months later, found that the Rafah crossing agreement worked efficiently, that from January–April 2006, the Karni crossing was closed 45% of the time, and severe limitations were in place on exports from Gaza, with, according to OCHA figures, only 1,500 of 8,500 tons of produce getting through; that they were informed most closures were unrelated to security issues in Gaza but either responses to violence in the West Bank or for no given reason. The promised transit of convoys between Gaza and the West Bank was not honoured;
Closures unrelated to security issues or for no given reason?

That's not giving up control!






You are a year out as in 2004 Israel still had troops in gaza and occupied the land. One year later the Israelis left gaza and handed control over to the P.A.

The artillery fire was in response to Palestinian rockets and rightly so. The terrorists killed where as a result of responces to Palestinian attacks.

Now why did you omit this fact from your highlighted manipulation
but either responses to violence in the West Bank

A legitimate reason for closing the Israeli borders to possible terrorist incursion.

 
Go ahead Billo -- YOU vote for Hamas...
Stop right there!

I don't vote for Hamas and I don't support Hamas. I am not involved in this conflict. What I am doing, is calling you out on the many lies you (and other Israeli kiss-asses) tell on a constant basis.

BTW Billo Bud -- you nailed it above. There are consequences of giving a international terrorist organization effective control of your govt. Did you think there shouldn't be?
Could ISIL or AQA be a legitimate vote without consequences?
You're defending the Likud Party. They're a terrorist organization. Their roots are in Irgun. A Jewish terrorist group that bombed the King David hotel. The IDF regularly shoots at Palestinian's fishing and farming. That's terrorism.

When you think about it, you've got to be pretty evil to shoot at someone fishing or farming. Yet that doesn't register a blip on your immoral radar, as you blame the Pals for "all" the problems.

OF COURSE -- the US and many other countries backed Fatah... Because Fatah essentially CREATED the PA and brought about the release of the Gaza to their authority. And the pre-election PA was making GREAT progress in organizing a national identity.

It's APPALLING that the Palis sacrificed REAL progress for their cause in choosing Hamas. Did you read the Hamas PLATFORM that PF published? It's a battle screed --- not a plan for Palestinian Nationalism. The end game for that is exactly what happened when Jordan EJECTED the PLO..

The mistake on the part of the US was to PUSH the election date earlier than the PA wanted it to be. Because Bush and Rice wanted a chance to make real progress towards peace and Pali Nationalism before they left office. Had Abbas called the elections on HIS terms -- results could have been much different.
Of coarse you backed Fatah?

Did you know at one time, you and your ilk thought of Fatah, the same way you think of Hamas now?

You keep on mentioning fishermen and farmers being targeted by the IDF. Do you have a link to these allegations?







Expect to get some badly dubbed video's and inconclusive footage of a boat being told to stop.
 
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
 
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.
 
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.

The burden of proof is on the one making the allegations. He shouldn't even waste one minute of my time googling. And I've seen you ask for links many times.
 
Tell me what "Humanitarian Aid" or commercial freight has been DENIED after inspection.​

90% of Palestinian factories are closed do to Israel. Much of this is food production, furniture, and clothing. The agricultural sector cannot get supplies or export their produce due to the siege. Not to mention that Israel has destroyed 1/3 of Palestine's farmland. Fishermen are not allowed to fish.


So, why do the liars call this security?

Can you back all this up ?


That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video as usual, but you cannot back up your claim. Why am I not surprised?

You know what I find really ironic Tinmore? You constantly trash Israeli sources, yet you have no problem using possibly the most biased, anti Israel full of shit Iranian owned media source.

That's what I thought. All you got is a Press TV video​

Typical propaganda ploy. Slime the source while ignoring the content. If you find something that is not true point it out.

If you think I am just trashing Israeli sources just say so and I will point out their lies.


I have asked you MANY times to point out their lies. The same way I have in the past pointed out Press TV lives. The fact that you use Press TV to get your information explains why you are so incredibly brainwashed.

When have you asked me to point out a lie and I have not?
 
This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
This was all about trust - they couldn't handle smaller opportunities NOT to attack Israel, sorry Billo, it wasn't your blood spilled there.
Who the **** do you think you are? You do not have a right to tell others how to live their lives. You do not have a right to tell other people what they can and cannot have on their own property.

If you think you do have that right, then come over to my house and try to pull that shit on me, under my roof and see what happens next. I will personally show you how wrong that is.
 
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.





It seems that you do as in not one case was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that they were not either outside of the area allocated or engaged in smuggling

Want to find just one link and not expect others to do your work for you
 
You keep on mentioning fishermen and farmers being targeted by the IDF. Do you have a link to these allegations?
These aren't allegations, they are a fact!









HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE CARGO NET VIDEO. YOU DONT FISH WITH A CARGO NET UN LESS YOU ARE AFTER CONTRABAND PLACED ON THE SEA FLOOR.

Look closely and you will see that the gunboat fires in the water warning shots, to make the fishing boat turn back towards where it should be. And can you tell me where it says the gunboat is Israeli as it looks like an Egyptian one to me.
 
This is what happened when Israel allowed them a longer rope, you seriously expect Israel allow them a free shipping of rockets and weaponry to Gaza, or perhaps some Qatari funded aircrafts? or maybe you want us to hand them over our own weapons?
This was all about trust - they couldn't handle smaller opportunities NOT to attack Israel, sorry Billo, it wasn't your blood spilled there.
Who the **** do you think you are? You do not have a right to tell others how to live their lives. You do not have a right to tell other people what they can and cannot have on their own property.

If you think you do have that right, then come over to my house and try to pull that shit on me, under my roof and see what happens next. I will personally show you how wrong that is.





Depends on what you are doing, and if you are cooking Crystal meth then YES I can and enforce it with a gun
 
15th post
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.





It seems that you do as in not one case was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that they were not either outside of the area allocated or engaged in smuggling

Want to find just one link and not expect others to do your work for you
Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep.

 
Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...
Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?
gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.





It seems that you do as in not one case was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that they were not either outside of the area allocated or engaged in smuggling

Want to find just one link and not expect others to do your work for you
Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep.







You are the one that is paranoid


 
OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..
OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..
 
WTF Billo?? I asked for specific examples of legitimate incoming goods disappearing during inspections at Ashdod.
SURELY the shippers of these imports could lodge HUGE legal cases in International Court. And the shipping insurance companies would be complaining up a storm. That's how international shipping and trade works..
That's not the point. It is illegal to stop a ship in international waters, sailing under the flag of a sovereign nation. There's a word for when that occurs and it's called "piracy". And since Israel has no legal jurisdiction in Gazan territorial waters, it has no right to stop any ship whatsoever, no matter what cargo it happens to be carrying.

Give me the citation that ships are stopped in Intl waters. There ARE exceptions to the rule allowed by Intl law. Gazan territorial waters are under an internationally recognized blockade for inspection purposes. US-coalition set up an embargo against Iraq for 12 years. INCLUDING a no-fly zone over parts of Iraq. Was never recognized as contrary to Intl. Law..
 
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