The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[flacaltenn]

Shooting AT somebody is different than shooting somebody. If a one-man dingy HAD a radio tuned to local traffic -- I'm sure that would save the Israeli Coast Guard a couple shells. Works kinda like a radio...

Who shoots at people fishing? Think about that. Who the **** shoots at someone fishing?

Not only is there nothing to justify such an action, this is so wrong, that the lack of outrage from others, speaks volumes about who they are as a person.

Once again, link?

gaza fishermen killed - Google Search

You don't need a PhD.

Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site ! I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???

 

[Billo_Really]

Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site ! I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???

You think shooting at people fishing is okay? No big deal?

 

[Billo_Really]

HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE CARGO NET VIDEO. YOU DONT FISH WITH A CARGO NET UN LESS YOU ARE AFTER CONTRABAND PLACED ON THE SEA FLOOR.

Look closely and you will see that the gunboat fires in the water warning shots, to make the fishing boat turn back towards where it should be. And can you tell me where it says the gunboat is Israeli as it looks like an Egyptian one to me.

Shut your ******* mouth, asshole! You don't know shit. All you know, is that you're an evil piece of shit, who should take his own life.

The fishermen were in Gazan territorial waters, moron. The Israeli gunboat had no legal right to be in the area. Now **** you!

 

[Billo_Really]

Depends on what you are doing, and if you are cooking Crystal meth then YES I can and enforce it with a gun

Unless you're the AHJ, you will not like where your gun whind's up.

 

[flacaltenn]

Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site ! I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???

You think shooting at people fishing is okay? No big deal?

Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats. Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..

 

[flacaltenn]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

From the time the closure was imposed in June 2007 to November 2014, a monthly average of 13.5 trucks left Gaza to foreign destinations, most of them carrying agricultural goods – just one percent of the monthly average of goods shipped out just prior to the closure.

All goods originating in Gaza are shipped through Kerem Shalom Crossing, between Gaza and Israel.

Export from Gaza Gisha​

 

[P F Tinmore]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

Israel has always been a law free zone.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

 

[flacaltenn]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?

 

[flacaltenn]

OK -- no thanks to Tinmore or Monte or Billo -- but I've read what I can in a limited amount of time about WHAT goods have been or are blockaded. It's almost impossible to determine. AT TIMES -- the rules have been ambiguous or whimsical. For instance -- blocking canned fruit -- but not canned fish..

I am NOT in favor of any long-term blockade that ambiguous.. It is cruel and unnecessary for the security of Israel. I am however in favor of continuing A blockade. As long as embargoed goods are restricted to items that have TRUE dual military use or military use. And that COULD for instance include some building materials and tools such as used in building those tunnels. At times, Israel has left building projects up to the discretion of the PA. And that would be a smart move. So that civilian buildings and infrastructure COULD be restored by rationing concrete and steel on a project by project basis and getting accounting for it's use. .

You are not gonna dislodge Hamas by torturing the average Gazan. No more than our failed 12 year blockade of Iraq endeared the US to the average Iraqi.. SEE ---- I just need facts and truth. Not that hard -- was it PF?? Is it Billo???

But at the same time -- these flotillas that occasionally turn violent are not effective either. It's street theatre -- not effective protest. Just get the facts out, cut the propaganda shit, and work for a REASONABLE agreement. The Palis will dislodge Hamas when REASON prevails and they can see clearly that militancy is not gonna solve IMMEDIATE issues such as this.

Now it's time for the OTHER side to tell me where I'm wrong..

OK, but what does the denial of the Palestinians to export bell peppers, furniture, or clothing have to do with Israel's security. Particularly when Israel is only defending its occupation and colonization.

Put this in context.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​

Don't need the UN declaration PF.. I need the proof that bell peppers cannot leave Gaza by sea..

From the time the closure was imposed in June 2007 to November 2014, a monthly average of 13.5 trucks left Gaza to foreign destinations, most of them carrying agricultural goods – just one percent of the monthly average of goods shipped out just prior to the closure.

All goods originating in Gaza are shipped through Kerem Shalom Crossing, between Gaza and Israel.

Export from Gaza Gisha​

Why June 2007??? What was the volume going across BEFORE the Hamas purge -- immediately after Israel withdrew.. ?

You know -- one reason I dont like the arbitrary rules and enforcement of the blockade is because all Hamas has to do is interfere in the goods coming in and out.. The UN caught them at that before. They just start confiscating stuff and blaming it on Israel... Works beautifully in that vacuum of news and information..

If the blockade was purely for military reasons -- Hamas could not do that.

 

[flacaltenn]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?

Any kind of united Pali Nationalism that seriously wants to improve the daily lives of their people. AND has the leadership to do more world class diplomacy and less meaningless and symbolic attacks on Israel..
Would have to breach the Hamas/Fatah break-up. My hope is that Hamas gets sucked into more interventions in Yemen, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere and loses interest in having Gaza as a trophy..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Really Billo -- When Gaza OPERATES like a country -- all these "international rules and laws" would have meaning. The Palis NEED a functional govt before we start feuding over "international laws"..

When Gaza OPERATES like a country​

Do you mean not occupied?

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

What would a "responsible government" look like under the circumstances?

Any kind of united Pali Nationalism that seriously wants to improve the daily lives of their people. AND has the leadership to do more world class diplomacy and less meaningless and symbolic attacks on Israel..
Would have to breach the Hamas/Fatah break-up. My hope is that Hamas gets sucked into more interventions in Yemen, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere and loses interest in having Gaza as a trophy..

Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was a candidate for president in 2005 against Abbas. Israel did everything it could to make sure that Abbas won. We would be looking at a very different history if Dr. Barghouti had won that election.

 

[Billo_Really]

Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats. Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..

The fishing boat was in Gaza's own territorial waters. The Israeli gunboat, had no legal reason to even be in the area. Why do you continue to ignore that fact?

 

[Billo_Really]

It is NOT occupied. It is an opportunity waiting for a Responsible govt..
Not gonna repeat that again PF.. It's obvious to most of the world..

Excuse me, but the rest of the world considers Gaza under occupation. And they've been under occupation since 1967.

If Gaza wasn't occupied, their fishermen wouldn't be getting shot at. Their farmers wouldn't be getting shot at. Humanitarian vessels would not be stopped, sailing into their ports. Gazans would be able to leave the area. Gaza is a prison. It is a prison, because the area is under occupation.

 

[montelatici]

These Zionists are so irrational. Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.

How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Like I said -- shooting into the water is not shooting people. There was a VERBAL exchange as well in your video.

It's a blockade. You can't allow 100 small boats out in deeper water to pick up or transfer cargo. Like I said -- IN PRINCIPLE i support the blockade of the military and dual use crap. Don't like the ways that is being implemented.

What SHOULD happen --- Is that Israel/Egypt SHOULD open deeper fishing grounds farther offshore in a LIMITED zone, give daily/monthly permits and inspect all small boats leaving that zone. Limits on the size of those boats. Could move that zone around at random to prevent placement of contraband on the bottom of the sea. Why don't you work for a RESPONSIBLE Pali govt who can ASSIST and negotiate in the problems? If a real govt existed --- you'd have a customs and inspection facility and a coast guard that would open to international scrutiny..

The fishing boat was in Gaza's own territorial waters. The Israeli gunboat, had no legal reason to even be in the area. Why do you continue to ignore that fact?

Indeed, Israel lied about leaving Gaza in 2005. Why are the still there?

Even when they are under ceasefire Israel continues to shoot Palestinians in Gaza.

 

[Phoenall]

Maybe you need to learn how to link to a SPECIFIC site ! I've looked for the evidence. Found ONE dead Gazan fisherman in 2010 because of Israel.. You got MORE ???

You think shooting at people fishing is okay? No big deal?

Then prove they were fishing and not smuggling or outside their limits ?

 

[Phoenall]

These Zionists are so irrational. Any other country that controlled the air space, the territorial sea and the land borders of another country and routinely goes in with troops for punish the populace and bombs it killing thousands of civilians (without being criticized), would be considered the occupier, as Israel rightfully is legally by the UN. They deny it.

How can they look themselves in a mirror after they post such nonsense?

And any other country that fired illegal weapons at children, mass murders children and engages in terrorist activity would have been wiprd from the face of the Earth by UN forces by now.