The homefront is slowly collapsing in Russia

[sparky]

It was a mess when he got there. He brokered a cease fire in the Israel/Gaza conflict right out of the gate and I think Trump gooned that up. It's funny everyone says Trump is Putin's puppet but he does far more for Israel than he ever did for Russia.


Ukraine has already lost the land and has no way to get it back at this point. They could have gotten it all back if the peace deal right after the war started had been accepted. Im guessing all those people Trump fired who knew what they were doing advised the previous admin not to take that deal. Lets review what it was though

1. Russia keeps Crimea

2. Russia withdraws from all the Ukrainian territory (minus Crimea) the only contingency is that the Donbas got more autonomy. I don't know the exact details of what that meant but it was still going to be part of Ukraine regardless of how much autonomy they were granted.

3. Ukraine cant join NATO.

vs now (best case for Ukraine)

1. Russia keeps Crimea

2. Russia keeps Donbas and Luhansk but gives back all the territory outside those 2 regions

3. Ukraine cant join NATO.

But it's Trump's fault Ukraine is going to lose territory in this war....

The mistake Trump made was saying Ukraine might get security guarantees. Russia is never going to accept that. It's the entire reason we are where we are now. Putin has been saying or decades now that Ukraine can't be allied with the west. They don't have to be allied with Russia, but they can't be allied with the west. That Russia would take Ukraine before it allowed it to become a sock puppet of the US. But we pushed and pushed and here we are in proxy war of our own making blaming the only person trying to end it. Sounds about right.

Why would Russia concede to negotiating anything if they've essentially won the war?

~S~

 

[Couchpotato]

Why would Russia concede to negotiating anything if they've essentially won the war?

~S~

They want to war to end. I dont think Putin is interested in continuing to expend men and resources in this conflict if he can get to where he wants to go without doing so. It would appear to me that Putin expected to find someone who was willing to negotiate from the very start and the invasion was a tactic to bring everyone to the table. If you look at the first peace deal which was scuttled by the last admin the 3 main points were

1, Russia keeps Crimea (that was the case prior to the war and everyone had accepted it)

2,. Russia withdraws from Ukraine but the Donbas gets some amount of autonomy. As I said I dont know the specifics of that portion of the deal but it was still going to be part of Ukraine

3. Ukraine cant join NATO.

That doesn't sound like someone who wants to take over a country and it aligns with what Putin/Russia have been saying to the West for decades.

Ukraine can't become part of the west. It doesn't have to be allied with Russia, but it can't be allied with the west. The Russians told Bush that

Cable: 08MOSCOW265_a

 

[JoeB131]

It was a mess when he got there. He brokered a cease fire in the Israel/Gaza conflict right out of the gate and I think Trump gooned that up. It's funny everyone says Trump is Putin's puppet but he does far more for Israel than he ever did for Russia.

Are you ******* kidding me? There's no "Ceasefire" in Gaza. STOP DRINKING THE BLEACH!!!!

But it's Trump's fault Ukraine is going to lose territory in this war....

The mistake Trump made was saying Ukraine might get security guarantees. Russia is never going to accept that. It's the entire reason we are where we are now. Putin has been saying or decades now that Ukraine can't be allied with the west. They don't have to be allied with Russia, but they can't be allied with the west. That Russia would take Ukraine before it allowed it to become a sock puppet of the US. But we pushed and pushed and here we are in proxy war of our own making blaming the only person trying to end it. Sounds about right.

Yeah, it is Trump's fault. Trump gave Putin hope that when he won (with Putin's help) he would have a free hand in Ukraine.

Politics should stop at the border. Always.

The problem with peace without security garuntees is that we've given Ukraine those.

We promised Ukraine we'd protect them if they gave up their nukes in 1994.

We promised them we'd protect them if they abided by the Minsk Accords.

Security garuntees without teeth are meaningless. It means they'll give up territory and have to do this all over again in five years after Russia has replaced her lost tanks.

 

[Couchpotato]

Are you ******* kidding me? There's no "Ceasefire" in Gaza. STOP DRINKING THE BLEACH!!!!

Israel and Hamas agree historic Gaza ceasefire deal after 15 months of war

Phased truce will bring the release of dozens of hostages still held by Hamas inside the besieged territory

www.independent.co.uk

?

Yeah, it is Trump's fault. Trump gave Putin hope that when he won (with Putin's help) he would have a free hand in Ukraine.

This is a moronic take. Putin wasnt losing in Ukraine prior to election. Litterally nothing has changed since Jan 20 2025 other than the person sitting in the Oval office is actually willing to actually discuss a peace deal. Russia isnt getting a better deal because Trump is in office. They are getting a better deal because the last admin was too invested in fighting this proxy war to recognize that the deal on the table 3 years ago was likely the best possible outcome.

Politics should stop at the border. Always.

The problem with peace without security garuntees is that we've given Ukraine those.

War guarantees were the crux of the issue from the outset. The entire reason Russia invaded. That's what NATO membership would have meant for Ukraine. Minus the threat of NATO admission for Ukraine Russia never invades in the first place. Why would Putin who holds significant leverage in this negotiation concede the primary condition he was attempting to prevent through the invasion?

We promised Ukraine we'd protect them if they gave up their nukes in 1994.

And we promised Russia we wouldn't advance NATO 1 inch east of Germany when they agreed to break up the Soviet Union in 91. Remind me are Poland, Lativa, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Slovenia , Finland. Are those east of Germany? Every admin since that agreement minus Bush 1 has expanded NATO east. Looks like everyone is breaking their word in this deal. How about we live in 2025 and not the 1990's?

We promised them we'd protect them if they abided by the Minsk Accords.

Um they didnt. No one did.

Security garuntees without teeth are meaningless. It means they'll give up territory and have to do this all over again in five years after Russia has replaced her lost tanks.

There wont be security guarantees. That's the sticking point for Russia and always has been. They told Bush that back in early 2000's. If Russia wanted to invade Ukraine all along, why would it wait for the US to disengage itself from the terror wars? The prime time to do it would have been when we were engaged in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria simultanously. The reason is ultimately Putin/Russia just wants a neutral Ukraine. Barring that they will take it. Why offer to give back all the territory they took at the beginning of the conflict to secure basically what they had prior to the invasion AND NATO exclusion. It's almost like that's the key piece they want.

 

[Mac1958]

Whatever Ukraine is in the future is not Putin's call.

If he doesn't like that, he can deal with Ukraine and our former friends and former allies in Europe.

 

[Couchpotato]

Whatever Ukraine is in the future is not Putin's call.

If he doesn't like that, he can deal with Ukraine and our former friends and former allies in Europe.

Yeah because large powers have never exercised that power to influence the future of smaller countries.... Only Russia has done this and only with Ukraine...

 

[JanetTheGreat]

In 2022 the media said Russia is near collapse...same thing in 2023, 2024, and 2025. Maybe just another four years, they say? Hahaha! Just BS coping from Western psychopath war mongerers.

 

[Mac1958]

Yeah because large powers have never exercised that power to influence the future of smaller countries.... Only Russia has done this and only with Ukraine...

 

[JoeB131]

This is a moronic take. Putin wasnt losing in Ukraine prior to election. Litterally nothing has changed since Jan 20 2025 other than the person sitting in the Oval office is actually willing to actually discuss a peace deal. Russia isnt getting a better deal because Trump is in office. They are getting a better deal because the last admin was too invested in fighting this proxy war to recognize that the deal on the table 3 years ago was likely the best possible outcome.

Um, Putin wasn't doing well. His siege of Kyiv was broken and the Ukrainians retook Kharkiv. Sanctions were killing him.

Then Trump comes along, and now he thinks he can get everything he wants at the negotiating table because TACO.

War guarantees were the crux of the issue from the outset. The entire reason Russia invaded. That's what NATO membership would have meant for Ukraine. Minus the threat of NATO admission for Ukraine Russia never invades in the first place. Why would Putin who holds significant leverage in this negotiation concede the primary condition he was attempting to prevent through the invasion?

Oh, bullshit. Putin was trying to topple Zelenskyy and install a friendly government that would redraw the border. Putin wants Ukraine to be like Belarus- A compliant client state that they aren't responsible for economically.

And we promised Russia we wouldn't advance NATO 1 inch east of Germany when they agreed to break up the Soviet Union in 91. Remind me are Poland, Lativa, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Slovenia , Finland. Are those east of Germany? Every admin since that agreement minus Bush 1 has expanded NATO east. Looks like everyone is breaking their word in this deal. How about we live in 2025 and not the 1990's?

They never "agreed" to break up the USSR. The USSR broke up on its own because no one wanted to be part of it anymore- including Russia itself.

Now, we did make vague promises of not expanding NATO as a precondition for German reunification. But there was never a formal treaty where we agreed to that.

There wont be security guarantees. That's the sticking point for Russia and always has been. They told Bush that back in early 2000's. If Russia wanted to invade Ukraine all along, why would it wait for the US to disengage itself from the terror wars? The prime time to do it would have been when we were engaged in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria simultanously. The reason is ultimately Putin/Russia just wants a neutral Ukraine. Barring that they will take it. Why offer to give back all the territory they took at the beginning of the conflict to secure basically what they had prior to the invasion AND NATO exclusion. It's almost like that's the key piece they want.

I can't see how there is peace without security garuntees, unless Trump throws Ukraine under the bus completely. (Which I wouldn't put past him.)

Nothing keeps Putin from trying this again in 10 years. (or whoever succeeds Putin, he'll hopefully be dead by then.)

 

[struth]

It only took Trump 7 months to get the Russian home front to fall apart

Trump is about to end xiden’s war

 

[Mac1958]

Sen. Lindsey Graham says Trump ready to ‘crush’ Russian economy if Putin avoids talks with Zelenskyy
TACO

Trump warns of ‘severe consequences’ if Russia doesn’t stop Ukraine war after Putin meeting
TACO

 

[struth]

The Biden Administration Releases Sobering New Report About the Impacts of LNG​

The Biden Administration Releases Sobering New Report About the Impacts of LNG

The long-awaited study paints a grim picture of effects on climate, community, and renewable energy

www.sierraclub.org

Minor things like the environment are of no concern to Dotard.

Xiden lifted Russian sanctions so they could finish their LNG line and fund their invasion of Ukraine

 

[Couchpotato]

Um, Putin wasn't doing well. His siege of Kyiv was broken and the Ukrainians retook Kharkiv. Sanctions were killing him.

Then Trump comes along, and now he thinks he can get everything he wants at the negotiating table because TACO.

Nothing has changed. No sanctions have been taken off the table so why isn't he dead from all the sanctions that were "killing him"? The support hasnt shut off like Trump said it would so why haven't the battle lines moved significantly in basically 3 years? If Ukraine was winning this war on Jan 19 2025 and nothing has changed, why aren't they still winning? Oh yeah the "Ukraine is winning" mantra is and aways was bullshit.

Oh, bullshit. Putin was trying to topple Zelenskyy and install a friendly government that would redraw the border. Putin wants Ukraine to be like Belarus- A compliant client state that they aren't responsible for economically.

Is that why he offered to give back all the territory they took in exchange for Ukraine not getting admitted into NATO? Is that why he sent a draft proposal to the head of NATO promising not to invade if NATO would promise not to admit Ukraine? Because he was trying to topple Zelensky? Explain to me how that's accomplished by doing that?

They never "agreed" to break up the USSR. The USSR broke up on its own because no one wanted to be part of it anymore- including Russia itself.

Ok buddy. Maybe you weren't alive what Im certain of is that you weren't part of the negotiations at the time. The people (on both sides) who were disagree with you. So, I think I'll take their word over yours on the subject. Crazy I know.

Now, we did make vague promises of not expanding NATO as a precondition for German reunification. But there was never a formal treaty where we agreed to that.

You mean the person our government sent to negotiate with the Soviet Union telling the Soviet Union that we wouldn't? That "vague promise"? The one James Baker the previously mentioned person we sent has said many times he made and that it wasn't vague? That "vague promise"

I can't see how there is peace without security garuntees, unless Trump throws Ukraine under the bus completely. (Which I wouldn't put past him.)

Nothing keeps Putin from trying this again in 10 years. (or whoever succeeds Putin, he'll hopefully be dead by then.)

Explain to me why Russia who has most of the negotiating leverage would cede the primary reason for initiating the invasion in the first place? What's the forcing function exactly?

 

[j-mac]

Whatever Ukraine is in the future is not Putin's call.

If he doesn't like that, he can deal with Ukraine and our former friends and former allies in Europe.

“Former” ?

You sir, are a complete moron…

 

[JoeB131]

It only took Trump 7 months to get the Russian home front to fall apart

Trump is about to end xiden’s war

Stop drinking the bleach.

Putin got a red carpet photo op and Trump looked like a sick old man.

 

[struth]

Stop drinking the bleach.

Putin got a red carpet photo op and Trump looked like a sick old man.

Why would anyone drink bleach? Let’s stick to reality

The OP is clear, the Russian home front is crashing and all it took was 7 months of real leadership in Washington

Putin knew the xiden crime family was using Ukraine to launder money to enrich themselves, he knew he could continue his war at will with his puppet Xiden in the White House

 

[JoeB131]

Why would anyone drink bleach? Let’s stick to reality

The OP is clear, the Russian home front is crashing and all it took was 7 months of real leadership in Washington

Putin knew the xiden crime family was using Ukraine to launder money to enrich themselves, he knew he could continue his war at will with his puppet Xiden in the White House

No, it's not. TACO. Trump keep threatening more sanctions and keeps backing off.

 

[struth]

No, it's not. TACO. Trump keep threatening more sanctions and keeps backing off.

If talks fail there will be more.

Currently under Trump there are number of sanctions.

https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/russia-related-sanctions

 

[JoeB131]

If talks fail there will be more.

Currently under Trump there are number of sanctions.

Those are the sanctions Biden put on. He's actually lifted some sanctions on Russia.

Much to Putin's delight.

 

[struth]

Those are the sanctions Biden put on. He's actually lifted some sanctions on Russia.

Much to Putin's delight.

They are the sanctions that Trump put on in his first admin

What sanctions did Trump lift?

Xiden lifted trump sanctions to help Putin fund the war

Here’s the link Nord Stream 2: Biden waives US sanctions on Russian pipeline - BBC News