Zone1 The Greater Sin

[hadit]

Do you understand there is no need to "make up" for sin, as sin has already been forgiven? Think about this more deeply and perhaps you then understand the purpose of penance for sins that have been forgiven.

So why do you think that doing some "Hail Mary's" is an appropriate "penance" for sin? Would not appropriate penance be something related to the sin itself? If you've harmed someone, attempt to make whole what you damaged. Chanting some prayers doesn't do anything.

 

[hadit]

Again, even before that, they paid special heed to what was spoken and practiced before the written word fell into place. If some don't wish to be bothered with these very early Christian words and practices, so be it. What is perplexing is that just because you don't want to be bothered, you don't want anyone to adhere to them. Let it be.

No, I resist those who insist I have to be bound by such things when Scripture does not agree.

 

[hadit]

Exactly--as do Catholics reject that thinking.

Catholic teaching is that all Christians are members of the Body of Christ and are considered brothers and sisters in Christ.

Where do you people come up with such imputations?

From Catholics such as those on this board who continue to post that only those in a specific Catholic sect are the real Body of Christ and everyone else is on the outside. Are you really not aware of them?

 

[hadit]

Here comes yet another imputation! Knock.it.off. There is nothing unacceptable if many Christians receive communion in their denomination in memory of Christ.

Catholics believe transubstantiation occurs during the Mass and that the actual body, blood, divinity of Christ is being--not only received, but proclaimed. As Orthodox and Coptics also believe this, there is no reason for them not to receive the Eucharist, and they do receive communion in the Catholic Church.

However, if someone does not believe in Transubstantiation has occurred, it is not in anyone's interest to proclaim, in fact that did occur. No matter what denomination one embraces, I doubt anyone is up to lying when in another church.

All I know is that my wife was told she could not commune with Jesus and her friend because my wife was not Catholic. That is unacceptable and her friend should have been told better by her brother, the priest.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem lies in giving a Pope the same level of authority as God's own word. That's the problem, and you literally saying "it will not be undone" demonstrates its fallacy.

First, the Pope doesn't have the level of authority as God. That is a highly ignorant claim.

"It will not be undone" demonstrates its fallacy is another ignorant claim. Perhaps we should examine the definition of "fallacy".

fallacy: a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid.

In this case you are arguing that the Catholic Church is going to rescind a teaching of the Catholic Church. Very well. Provide the reasoning for your argument that the Catholic Church will rescind its teaching. If you cannot, the fallacy is on your part.

 

[hadit]

First, the Pope doesn't have the level of authority as God. That is a highly ignorant claim.

"It will not be undone" demonstrates its fallacy is another ignorant claim. Perhaps we should examine the definition of "fallacy".

fallacy: a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid.

In this case you are arguing that the Catholic Church is going to rescind a teaching of the Catholic Church. Very well. Provide the reasoning for your argument that the Catholic Church will rescind its teaching. If you cannot, the fallacy is on your part.

No teaching should be placed at the same level of infallibility as Scripture itself. Whether the church changes its stance or not is irrelevant to that reality.

 

[Meriweather]

Can we then knock if off with wondering if we pray together?

You brought it up. Your claim is that you go boldly to God on your own and then accused Catholics of not doing this. One thing is probably true. Catholics tend to pray humbly before God on their own. Catholics also pray with other members of the entire Body of Christ, whether these living members are alive to day or have passed on and are alive in Christ.

If you knock off denigrating Catholics at prayer, then no response from Catholics is needed. Correct?

 

[Meriweather]

You yourself say that Christ's blood is the only thing that justifies us before God

Where have I said this?

 

[Meriweather]

so why do we have to struggle along perfecting OURSELVES when He has already finished the work?

It is your opinion that you who remain in sinfulness is a finished work. Christ's finished work is the redemption of mankind and opening the way of salvation. It is not a pass to continue on in sinfulness.

 

[Meriweather]

We pray for those who are still with us here on earth. Those who have departed are with Christ. That was Paul's desire, after all, to depart and be with Christ, not to be tossed into some middle ground where he had to work on himself before God says that Christ's blood PLUS his own working on himself finally justify him. You yourself say that Christ's blood is the only thing that justifies us before God, so why do we have to struggle along perfecting OURSELVES when He has already finished the work?

I do not see anywhere in Paul's writings that he expected anyone to pray for him after he died, do you?

Show me where Paul emphasized no one was to pray for him after he died. It was early Christian practice to pray for those who had passed on because...it was Jewish practice as well, and Paul was a Jew. If Paul thought this was no longer necessary, don't you think he might have mentioned it? Why would he ask for prayers after his death when this was normal practice to begin with?

 

[Meriweather]

So why do you think that doing some "Hail Mary's" is an appropriate "penance" for sin? Would not appropriate penance be something related to the sin itself? If you've harmed someone, attempt to make whole what you damaged. Chanting some prayers doesn't do anything.

If harm was done it is already a given that will be rectified to the extent possible. Again, you show you see no value in prayer. Catholics do see the value, and that is why we pray.

 

[Meriweather]

No, I resist those who insist I have to be bound by such things when Scripture does not agree.

Tell me what tradition do Catholics insist non-Catholics must follow.

 

[Meriweather]

All I know is that my wife was told she could not commune with Jesus and her friend because my wife was not Catholic. That is unacceptable and her friend should have been told better by her brother, the priest.

Not receiving communion is not a ban on communing with Jesus. Catholics who do not receive communion still commune with Jesus throughout the Mass.

 

[Meriweather]

No teaching should be placed at the same level of infallibility as Scripture itself. Whether the church changes its stance or not is irrelevant to that reality.

Infallibility of scripture? How are you defining that? It's the first I've heard scripture being described with that term.

 

[hadit]

Where have I said this?

I was led to believe that you believed that. Are you saying differently? Is there something other than the blood of Christ that justifies us before God?

 

[hadit]

It is your opinion that you who remain in sinfulness is a finished work. Christ's finished work is the redemption of mankind and opening the way of salvation. It is not a pass to continue on in sinfulness.

Of course it is not. Nowhere are we told to remain in sin. Jesus famously said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more". Now, I have emphatically stated that we are not free to remain in sin, we are free to NOT sin anymore.

 

[hadit]

Show me where Paul emphasized no one was to pray for him after he died. It was early Christian practice to pray for those who had passed on because...it was Jewish practice as well, and Paul was a Jew. If Paul thought this was no longer necessary, don't you think he might have mentioned it? Why would he ask for prayers after his death when this was normal practice to begin with?

Because he regularly beseeched the brothers to pray for him when he was alive. If he knew dying meant an unknown stint in purgatory where he had to add to Christ's sacrifice by his own efforts, why would he say part of him was eager to die so he could be with Christ?

 

[hadit]

If harm was done it is already a given that will be rectified to the extent possible. Again, you show you see no value in prayer. Catholics do see the value, and that is why we pray.

That is totally false. You are not debating honestly.

 

[hadit]

Not receiving communion is not a ban on communing with Jesus. Catholics who do not receive communion still commune with Jesus throughout the Mass.

As did my wife. There was no call for her to be denied communion, none.

 

[hadit]

Infallibility of scripture? How are you defining that? It's the first I've heard scripture being described with that term.

What part of Scripture do you believe is fallible?