Zone1 The Greater Sin

[Donald H]

The ransom sacrifice. Satan entered Judas to do what he did.

Well that doesn't really work does it!

 

[hadit]

What practice do you not wish to follow?

I do not want the human at the highest level of church power or anything he writes to be considered infallible. He's not, he's a human being and his pontifications are subject to scrutiny. I can, like the Bereans, search the Scriptures for myself.
I do not want to bow in front of a statue and beseech dead ancestors to intervene between God and myself. I can boldly approach the throne of God myself and be confident that He hears me.
I do not want to pray for people to get out of purgatory with no way of knowing if it's working or how long they have to be there in the first place.
I do not want the church to prescribe for me what good works I must do and in what amounts.
I do not want traditions to be elevated to the authority of Scripture.

IOW, I am fully a part of the Body of Christ outside the Catholic Church. I can be unified with that body and not need the trappings of any particular denomination. I will not, as what happened to my wife at a Catholic church, deny a fellow believer communion because they do not belong to my denomination.

 

[Meriweather]

I do not want the human at the highest level of church power or anything he writes to be considered infallible. He's not, he's a human being and his pontifications are subject to scrutiny. I can, like the Bereans, search the Scriptures for myself.

In the history of the Church, there have been two infallible rulings. Popes write a lot...but as you see, none of what they write is infallible.

I do not want to bow in front of a statue and beseech dead ancestors to intervene between God and myself. I can boldly approach the throne of God myself and be confident that He hears me.

Then don't. You want it to be you and God alone. Catholics do that as well, but we also join with one another and the community in prayer. Where two or three are gathered in my name.... We don't always assume the role of hermit.

I do not want to pray for people to get out of purgatory with no way of knowing if it's working or how long they have to be there in the first place.

So don't pray for those who have passed on. Makes me wonder how much you pray for those who are still living. After all, they can boldly approach God by themselves, and you have no way of knowing whether your prayers are working or how long it will take.

I do not want the church to prescribe for me what good works I must do and in what amounts.

I know of no church that does this. If you think the Catholic Church does, you are mistaken.

I do not want traditions to be elevated to the authority of Scripture.

What came first...what was written or what was spoken. Scripture says we should pay heed to both.

IOW, I am fully a part of the Body of Christ outside the Catholic Church. I can be unified with that body and not need the trappings of any particular denomination. I will not, as what happened to my wife at a Catholic church, deny a fellow believer communion because they do not belong to my denomination.

Nor do you need to make up (or believe in) non-existent "trappings" for you to pretend to escape.

The Catholic communion is the true body, blood, and divinity of Christ. Is this the belief held by your wife's friend? Or is it her belief that communion is in memory of Christ?

 

[0311]

There is misapprehension and confusion of what was happening in regards to indulgences and printing Bibles in the fifteen hundreds. Some bishops were misusing indulgences, and others within the Church (including Martin Luther) were insisting these bishops be corrected. There were poor translations (and parts being left out) of the Bible by printers, more concerned with profit than accuracy. The Church was trying to prevent this as well.

Beginning with Judas and Peter’s denial of Jesus, we face the fact that the Church, the Body of Christ, is made up of broken people. Sin should not—and does not—prevail against it.

Judas did not deny Christ. He left him and the other Apostles. Peter did deny Christ, but he did not leave him and the others. Who had the greater sin?

When Protestants left the Church, breaking apart the Body of Christ, this, too, is the greater sin. After five hundred years--since Jesus prayed we would remain one—why can’t we fix/heal it? Where is our miracle, the one Jesus asked of us? What steps can be taken to bring this miracle about? Where is our faith such a miracle can take place?

Who the fuck cares. No Sky Man. No bastard son. Just weak minded fools who fall for the Con.

 

[SaxonJackson]

There is misapprehension and confusion of what was happening in regards to indulgences and printing Bibles in the fifteen hundreds. Some bishops were misusing indulgences, and others within the Church (including Martin Luther) were insisting these bishops be corrected. There were poor translations (and parts being left out) of the Bible by printers, more concerned with profit than accuracy. The Church was trying to prevent this as well.

Beginning with Judas and Peter’s denial of Jesus, we face the fact that the Church, the Body of Christ, is made up of broken people. Sin should not—and does not—prevail against it.

Judas did not deny Christ. He left him and the other Apostles. Peter did deny Christ, but he did not leave him and the others. Who had the greater sin?

When Protestants left the Church, breaking apart the Body of Christ, this, too, is the greater sin. After five hundred years--since Jesus prayed we would remain one—why can’t we fix/heal it? Where is our miracle, the one Jesus asked of us? What steps can be taken to bring this miracle about? Where is our faith such a miracle can take place?

According to Scripture, there is/are more than one Church. During the time of the Apostles, Churches emerged at different places and each was autonomous and independent of the others. Even Christ speaks of "seven churches" two of which He was pleased with and five of which He took issue with.

The moment the Catholic church opted to follow man's traditions over the written Word of God, they became the "protestants."

 

[hadit]

In the history of the Church, there have been two infallible rulings. Popes write a lot...but as you see, none of what they write is infallible.

There have been no infallible rulings. The Pope is a mere human like I am myself. He can be wrong, and his writings should be challenged regularly.

Then don't. You want it to be you and God alone. Catholics do that as well, but we also join with one another and the community in prayer. Where two or three are gathered in my name.... We don't always assume the role of hermit.

And we don't either. How many times do I have to tell you we have corporate prayer where we all pray together?

So don't pray for those who have passed on. Makes me wonder how much you pray for those who are still living. After all, they can boldly approach God by themselves, and you have no way of knowing whether your prayers are working or how long it will take.

Yes, they certainly can approach the throne by themselves, but we are commanded to pray for each other, and there are multitudes of testimonies where someone was in dire need, another was prompted to pray for them at that specific moment and God showed up for them. He does this to involve us in His work, not just leave us standing around watching. You seem to have a mistaken belief that our not praying for those already with Christ means that we don't pray for each other down here. That is most assuredly false.

I know of no church that does this. If you think the Catholic Church does, you are mistaken.

Are you given token "penances" by a priest to "make up" for sin instead of realizing that we can't make up for sin, we can only repent and sin no more? I mean, really, do 50 "hail Mary's" to make up for some sin or other?

What came first...what was written or what was spoken. Scripture says we should pay heed to both.

And the early church gave careful heed to what should be canonized in Scripture. Realize that tradition is implementing Scripture in meaningful ways in our lives. Paying heed to tradition means it can be challenged and changed, to preserve the original reason for its existence.

Nor do you need to make up (or believe in) non-existent "trappings" for you to pretend to escape.

There is no "escape" needed, as the Body of Christ is not contained in the Catholic Church. There is no need for the other denominations to become Catholic to be unified in Christ. This is my problem with many Catholics, they literally believe that people in other denominations have to become Catholic to be a true part of the Body. I reject that thinking.

The Catholic communion is the true body, blood, and divinity of Christ. Is this the belief held by your wife's friend? Or is it her belief that communion is in memory of Christ?

I don't know what her belief is, all I know is she told my wife that she could not take communion with her at Mass because she was not Catholic. her brother, BTW, is a Catholic priest so I would assume that her knowledge of Catholicism is fairly accurate. This despite my wife enjoying the presence of God and worshipping during the service, even appreciating the solemnity of the traditions. She left in tears at the rejection, not wanting to cause a scene, because her friend was essentially telling her that she was not worthy to have that intimate moment with Christ. You can say "Catholics don't <fill in the blank here>", but experience is experience. I have encountered Catholics who pray to Mary because they think Jesus will listen to her when He won't listen to them. My wife experienced a Catholic who refused to take communion with her and Christ because she was not Catholic. You claim the Catholic communion is the "true body, blood and divinity of Christ", which means you reject as false the communion practiced by other denominations. That is unacceptable, because yours is no "truer" than is mine.

 

[hadit]

Who the fuck cares. No Sky Man. No bastard son. Just weak minded fools who fall for the Con.

You're not necessary to this discussion. You may leave now.

 

[kjw47]

That flies in the face of what a JW was telling me when I discussed these things with them. They literally said that only 144,000 were to be saved and everyone else is to be eliminated.

You do realize, don't you, that the 144,000 are all Jews and you have no hope of being one of them?

I am a JW my post is 100% what JW,s teach and believe.
The Jewish religion is cut off, they reject Jesus to this day.

 

[kjw47]

Well that doesn't really work does it!

What doesn't work?

 

[BreezeWood]

What doesn't work?

the spirit is inviolable - what judas did was their own undertaking through influences nothing took leave of their senses for a motivation that was not their own.

 

[Meriweather]

There have been no infallible rulings. The Pope is a mere human like I am myself. He can be wrong, and his writings should be challenged regularly.

There have been two. You may not have a clue as to what an infallible ruling is. It happens when an interest in an issue starts from the the pews--in other words, the laity. There are questions that goes from the parish priests to the Bishops and Archbishops. If the issue cannot be resolved there, it moves to the Cardinals at the Vatican. Still no resolution (by this time hundreds of years may have passed): It goes to the Pope who resolves the issue. When a Pope resolves the issue, it remains resolved, meaning it will not be undone.

The two issues resolved in this manner were the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into heaven. Quite frankly, Catholics had been waiting years upon years for these decisions, and could not care less whether a non-Catholic agrees or disagrees. It's really not your business as you are not Catholic. By the way, you are not just declaring the Pope who resolved the issue "wrong", you are declaring all Catholics wrong as Catholics over the centuries had been involved. But, as you are not Catholic, your disagreement (probably formed in a matter of seconds, not centuries) doesn't matter.

 

[Meriweather]

And we don't either. How many times do I have to tell you we have corporate prayer where we all pray together?

Fewer times than I have had to explain Catholics are also part of one on one prayer with God.

 

[Meriweather]

You seem to have a mistaken belief

You missed the point. You pray for some members of the Body of Christ, but neglect praying for others. Your reasoning for not praying for others should fit both groups, not just the one.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you given token "penances" by a priest to "make up" for sin instead of realizing that we can't make up for sin, we can only repent and sin no more? I mean, really, do 50 "hail Mary's" to make up for some sin or other?

Do you understand there is no need to "make up" for sin, as sin has already been forgiven? Think about this more deeply and perhaps you then understand the purpose of penance for sins that have been forgiven.

 

[Meriweather]

And the early church gave careful heed to what should be canonized in Scripture. Realize that tradition is implementing Scripture in meaningful ways in our lives. Paying heed to tradition means it can be challenged and changed, to preserve the original reason for its existence.

Again, even before that, they paid special heed to what was spoken and practiced before the written word fell into place. If some don't wish to be bothered with these very early Christian words and practices, so be it. What is perplexing is that just because you don't want to be bothered, you don't want anyone to adhere to them. Let it be.

 

[Meriweather]

There is no "escape" needed, as the Body of Christ is not contained in the Catholic Church. There is no need for the other denominations to become Catholic to be unified in Christ. This is my problem with many Catholics, they literally believe that people in other denominations have to become Catholic to be a true part of the Body. I reject that thinking.

Exactly--as do Catholics reject that thinking.

Catholic teaching is that all Christians are members of the Body of Christ and are considered brothers and sisters in Christ.

Where do you people come up with such imputations?

 

[Meriweather]

You claim the Catholic communion is the "true body, blood and divinity of Christ", which means you reject as false the communion practiced by other denominations. That is unacceptable, because yours is no "truer" than is mine.

Here comes yet another imputation! Knock.it.off. There is nothing unacceptable if many Christians receive communion in their denomination in memory of Christ.

Catholics believe transubstantiation occurs during the Mass and that the actual body, blood, divinity of Christ is being--not only received, but proclaimed. As Orthodox and Coptics also believe this, there is no reason for them not to receive the Eucharist, and they do receive communion in the Catholic Church.

However, if someone does not believe in Transubstantiation has occurred, it is not in anyone's interest to proclaim, in fact that did occur. No matter what denomination one embraces, I doubt anyone is up to lying when in another church.

 

[hadit]

There have been two. You may not have a clue as to what an infallible ruling is. It happens when an interest in an issue starts from the the pews--in other words, the laity. There are questions that goes from the parish priests to the Bishops and Archbishops. If the issue cannot be resolved there, it moves to the Cardinals at the Vatican. Still no resolution (by this time hundreds of years may have passed): It goes to the Pope who resolves the issue. When a Pope resolves the issue, it remains resolved, meaning it will not be undone.

The two issues resolved in this manner were the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into heaven. Quite frankly, Catholics had been waiting years upon years for these decisions, and could not care less whether a non-Catholic agrees or disagrees. It's really not your business as you are not Catholic. By the way, you are not just declaring the Pope who resolved the issue "wrong", you are declaring all Catholics wrong as Catholics over the centuries had been involved. But, as you are not Catholic, your disagreement (probably formed in a matter of seconds, not centuries) doesn't matter.

The problem lies in giving a Pope the same level of authority as God's own word. That's the problem, and you literally saying "it will not be undone" demonstrates its fallacy.

 

[hadit]

Fewer times than I have had to explain Catholics are also part of one on one prayer with God.

Can we then knock if off with wondering if we pray together?

 

[hadit]

You missed the point. You pray for some members of the Body of Christ, but neglect praying for others. Your reasoning for not praying for others should fit both groups, not just the one.

We pray for those who are still with us here on earth. Those who have departed are with Christ. That was Paul's desire, after all, to depart and be with Christ, not to be tossed into some middle ground where he had to work on himself before God says that Christ's blood PLUS his own working on himself finally justify him. You yourself say that Christ's blood is the only thing that justifies us before God, so why do we have to struggle along perfecting OURSELVES when He has already finished the work?

I do not see anywhere in Paul's writings that he expected anyone to pray for him after he died, do you?