The Great Abortion Compromise!

[Shogun]

Greetings!

None of you are familiar with me since I lurk on this board more than I post so forgive me for coming out of left field. I wanted to run an idea past a group of people with mixed political identity rather than my usual left leaning stomping grounds. I hope that a similar thread has not already been posted; i've read the rules and am not trying to step on toes... Here goes..

If voting Americans can agree on nothing else I am confident that we all can all feel what kind of polarized society we are. Pro this, Con that. 49%-51%. I will admit that I have enjoyed many, MANY rounds of debate (or arguement rather) and understant what it means to pick a team and go down with the ship so to speak. My question today is What can we do to develop a compromise on starkly polarized issues? You know what they say about opinions and, uh, elbows, right? Can we respect the opinon of someone else even if it is not our own? Can we agree to disagree knowing that, even if we win the election, we are ALL on the same boat? These are questions that I ask myself while trying to find common ground. Often it is easier to wrap ourselves up in a team jersey than it is to reach out and find common ground. I want to find common ground on theissue of abortion.

here is my compromise:


Is it a human when the sperm touches the egg or when the fetus is delivered from the vagina? While I don't believe that a fertalized egg is a human it is a human I think it is rediculous to hand out a blank abortion check that a late term baby must pay for. We can argue about souls on another thread. It seems to me that the brain cannot function without circulating bloodflow. THUS, I am willing to allow the criminalization for all abortion procedures performed on a fetus that has developed a heartbeat unless, of course, there is an issue of death for the mother. going further, I am willing to require that any doctor that allows an abortion past this stage not only loses their medical license but also serves the same jail time that manslaughter on a pregnant woman will deliver (no pun intended). IF there is a health concern for the mother then two second opinions are necessary in order to validate the claim.

In return, we pass a constitutionl amendment that clarifies the right of individual privacy to ensure that personal choice is not litigated by public morals, frank and honest sex education programs in public school (which can be opted out of course), access to every form of birth control available including the morning after pill. children under the age of 18 must still notify their legal guardian or parent since they are not autonomous legal enteties.

The point IS to minimize aborted children and not decide whose sexual behavior is acceptable, right? I guess what im looking for in feedback is not so much "ra ra abortion sucks" or "ug ug limitless abortion" as "Ill agree with this if we adjust that". Mutual respect under mutual democracy. The Golden rule...

UNITED WE STAND....

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Greetings!

None of you are familiar with me since I lurk on this board more than I post so forgive me for coming out of left field. I wanted to run an idea past a group of people with mixed political identity rather than my usual left leaning stomping grounds. I hope that a similar thread has not already been posted; i've read the rules and am not trying to step on toes... Here goes..

If voting Americans can agree on nothing else I am confident that we all can all feel what kind of polarized society we are. Pro this, Con that. 49%-51%. I will admit that I have enjoyed many, MANY rounds of debate (or arguement rather) and understant what it means to pick a team and go down with the ship so to speak. My question today is What can we do to develop a compromise on starkly polarized issues? You know what they say about opinions and, uh, elbows, right? Can we respect the opinon of someone else even if it is not our own? Can we agree to disagree knowing that, even if we win the election, we are ALL on the same boat? These are questions that I ask myself while trying to find common ground. Often it is easier to wrap ourselves up in a team jersey than it is to reach out and find common ground. I want to find common ground on theissue of abortion.

here is my compromise:


Is it a human when the sperm touches the egg or when the fetus is delivered from the vagina? While I don't believe that a fertalized egg is a human it is a human I think it is rediculous to hand out a blank abortion check that a late term baby must pay for. We can argue about souls on another thread. It seems to me that the brain cannot function without circulating bloodflow. THUS, I am willing to allow the criminalization for all abortion procedures performed on a fetus that has developed a heartbeat unless, of course, there is an issue of death for the mother. going further, I am willing to require that any doctor that allows an abortion past this stage not only loses their medical license but also serves the same jail time that manslaughter on a pregnant woman will deliver (no pun intended). IF there is a health concern for the mother then two second opinions are necessary in order to validate the claim.

In return, we pass a constitutionl amendment that clarifies the right of individual privacy to ensure that personal choice is not litigated by public morals, frank and honest sex education programs in public school (which can be opted out of course), access to every form of birth control available including the morning after pill. children under the age of 18 must still notify their legal guardian or parent since they are not autonomous legal enteties.

The point IS to minimize aborted children and not decide whose sexual behavior is acceptable, right? I guess what im looking for in feedback is not so much "ra ra abortion sucks" or "ug ug limitless abortion" as "Ill agree with this if we adjust that". Mutual respect under mutual democracy. The Golden rule...

UNITED WE STAND....

I agree completely. Welcome to the board. The only problem is legislating and enforcing such a complex policy. Those that wish to get an abortion, but are resticted, would still seek out the alley way hobbyist of the 50's and 60's. Making the morning after pill readily available would of course help, but I don't see much compromise coming from the religious right.

 

[5stringJeff]

Weclome Shogun. I appreciated your argument, except for this part:

We can argue about souls on another thread.

The existence (or non-existence) of a soul is of paramount importance in the abortion matter. If a baby gets a soul at conception, then aborting a baby between conception and heart formation (as you advocated) means that you've killed a human with a soul. Therefore, I don't think you can separate physical growth or organ formation from the existence of a soul.

 

[Shogun]

thank you for the welcome....


prehaps the religious right thinks the same thing about those who seem to want unfettered abortion. sure.. no one wants back alley coathanger abortions.. but can you agree that givin up late term abortions and gaining open access to clear education and the full range of birth control is better than having neither?

think of it as haggling with the intention of finding an acceptable common deal. What i'm trying to discover is if we are all past the point of honest consideration and stuck in vitriolic polarization. this is a two way street. if you can respect then you can be respected. if you can take then you can give.


again. golded rule.. walk a mile.. that sort of thiing.

We can all generalize that the left and the right yadda yadda yadda. we all have our reasons to think what we do. my question to you is what part of YOUR position are you willing to soften up on if you can trust that your opposite will do the same?



again, thanks for the welcome.

 

[Shogun]

Weclome Shogun. I appreciated your argument, except for this part:



The existence (or non-existence) of a soul is of paramount importance in the abortion matter. If a baby gets a soul at conception, then aborting a baby between conception and heart formation (as you advocated) means that you've killed a human with a soul. Therefore, I don't think you can separate physical growth or organ formation from the existence of a soul.

I respect that you have your position on the necessity to consider the soul. Many people do not believe the same thing as you do. We are all capable of forming a valid opinion. MY question to you is would you rather attempt to force people to believe your opinion regarding a soul or minimize the act of abortion and walk away knowing that a common compromise wont be challenged as soon as the political pendelum swings away from you?

 

[dmp]

prehaps the religious right thinks the same thing about those who seem to want unfettered abortion.

You mean 'CHristians'? Not everyone who is against (or for, I suppose) something is an extremist.

 

[5stringJeff]

I respect that you have your position on the necessity to consider the soul. Many people do not believe the same thing as you do. We are all capable of forming a valid opinion. MY question to you is would you rather attempt to force people to believe your opinion regarding a soul or minimize the act of abortion and walk away knowing that a common compromise wont be challenged as soon as the political pendelum swings away from you?

Would I take your compromise? As a starting point. I still believe the existence of the soul is essential to the issue of abortion.

 

[Nienna]

Would I take your compromise? As a starting point. I still believe the existence of the soul is essential to the issue of abortion.

I was just about to post something similar.

I believe that human life begins at conception, or at least that there is no other rational line to be drawn about the point at which life begins... life including the soul of the human.

However, any move toward oulawing abortion (except to save the life of the mother) is a move I would consider supporting.

 

[Shogun]

You mean 'CHristians'? Not everyone who is against (or for, I suppose) something is an extremist.

EXACTLY! Sometimes we can demonize what we dont agree easier than trying to understand and respect (or at least consider) a position other than our own.. Sure sure.. there ARE the fred phelps types who are stuck in their opinion. Thats fine. Im not talking to them. Im looking for people who are willing to hold on to their opinions while considering the opinions of others in order to form a commonly acceptable solution. Some people are simply not interested in anything but unbending application of their perspective. While their freedom put up a brick wall is one that ill protect, i'm looking for the common middle grounders who understand the value of mutual consideration. Blocking opposition into one giant bundle to ignore is the greatest diservice to a compromise. Again, if you can expect consideration then expect to be considerate. Our range of opinions alone don't hurt us.. our polarized willingness to demonize and ignore each other will.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I believe that human life begins at conception, or at least that there is no other rational line to be drawn about the point at which life begins... life including the soul of the human.

"Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul."
Leviticus 17:11

The Bible states in many more verses that the blood is life and that life is in the blood. Blood does not form in the body of a baby until several days after conception. I believe this when the "soul" "takes shape" as well. I'm not contradicting you, just backing you up with verse.

 

[Shogun]

Would I take your compromise? As a starting point. I still believe the existence of the soul is essential to the issue of abortion.

I would never ask you to believe anything else. You opinion is solid and valid. A compramize doenst have to be the static end all solution but can be a symbiotic agreement that we can all walk away from for a period of time and eventually come back to the table once we live, grow and develop greater perspective of the issue.

point in case:
I think that a lot of the reason that abortion because a hotbutton issue in the first place is a DIRECT result of the culture in which women found themselves at the time including meager equal rights, gender based opportunities, etc. THAT is not so much the case in 2006. While some may argue that there is still no equality between the sexes we have come FAR in opening doors for the gals. Therefor, the abortion arguement isnt automatically a message that is so much about the reflection of women claiming their rights. PLENTY of women are avid pro-lifers. Our consideration and compromise doesnt have to be a twenty year rule, but a momentary consideration of a united common ground.


While believeing that life begins at conception can you agree that allowing a rull range of education and birth control methods, including the morning after pill, is at least a healthy first step if we criminalize any abortion past the fetal heartbeat? we can always come back to the table as long as we all hve faith that consideration and compromise works better than polarized demonization, yes?

 

[Shogun]

Would I take your compromise? As a starting point. I still believe the existence of the soul is essential to the issue of abortion.

I would never ask you to believe anything else. You opinion is solid and valid. A compramize doenst have to be the static end all solution but can be a symbiotic agreement that we can all walk away from for a period of time and eventually come back to the table once we live, grow and develop greater perspective of the issue.

point in case:
I think that a lot of the reason that abortion because a hotbutton issue in the first place is a DIRECT result of the culture in which women found themselves at the time including meager equal rights, gender based opportunities, etc. THAT is not so much the case in 2006. While some may argue that there is still no equality between the sexes we have come FAR in opening doors for the gals. Therefor, the abortion arguement isnt automatically a message that is so much about the reflection of women claiming their rights. PLENTY of women are avid pro-lifers. Our consideration and compromise doesnt have to be a twenty year rule, but a momentary consideration of a united common ground.


While believeing that life begins at conception can you agree that allowing a rull range of education and birth control methods, including the morning after pill, is at least a healthy first step if we criminalize any abortion past the fetal heartbeat? we can always come back to the table as long as we all hve faith that consideration and compromise works better than polarized demonization, yes?


enough of my philisophical meanderings..

where would YOU offer considerate compromise?

 

[5stringJeff]

enough of my philisophical meanderings..

where would YOU offer considerate compromise?

If I was looking to offer a compromise, I think your guidelines are a decent place to draw the line.

If I was looking to write the abortion laws I would put on the books, it would outlaw abortion, expect for cases where the mother's life was endangered.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Greetings!

None of you are familiar with me since I lurk on this board more than I post so forgive me for coming out of left field. I wanted to run an idea past a group of people with mixed political identity rather than my usual left leaning stomping grounds. I hope that a similar thread has not already been posted; i've read the rules and am not trying to step on toes... Here goes..

If voting Americans can agree on nothing else I am confident that we all can all feel what kind of polarized society we are. Pro this, Con that. 49%-51%. I will admit that I have enjoyed many, MANY rounds of debate (or arguement rather) and understant what it means to pick a team and go down with the ship so to speak. My question today is What can we do to develop a compromise on starkly polarized issues? You know what they say about opinions and, uh, elbows, right? Can we respect the opinon of someone else even if it is not our own? Can we agree to disagree knowing that, even if we win the election, we are ALL on the same boat? These are questions that I ask myself while trying to find common ground. Often it is easier to wrap ourselves up in a team jersey than it is to reach out and find common ground. I want to find common ground on theissue of abortion.

here is my compromise:


Is it a human when the sperm touches the egg or when the fetus is delivered from the vagina? While I don't believe that a fertalized egg is a human it is a human I think it is rediculous to hand out a blank abortion check that a late term baby must pay for. We can argue about souls on another thread. It seems to me that the brain cannot function without circulating bloodflow. THUS, I am willing to allow the criminalization for all abortion procedures performed on a fetus that has developed a heartbeat unless, of course, there is an issue of death for the mother. going further, I am willing to require that any doctor that allows an abortion past this stage not only loses their medical license but also serves the same jail time that manslaughter on a pregnant woman will deliver (no pun intended). IF there is a health concern for the mother then two second opinions are necessary in order to validate the claim.

In return, we pass a constitutionl amendment that clarifies the right of individual privacy to ensure that personal choice is not litigated by public morals, frank and honest sex education programs in public school (which can be opted out of course), access to every form of birth control available including the morning after pill. children under the age of 18 must still notify their legal guardian or parent since they are not autonomous legal enteties.

The point IS to minimize aborted children and not decide whose sexual behavior is acceptable, right? I guess what im looking for in feedback is not so much "ra ra abortion sucks" or "ug ug limitless abortion" as "Ill agree with this if we adjust that". Mutual respect under mutual democracy. The Golden rule...

UNITED WE STAND....

Even though you sound nice and reasonable you are still advocating the destruction of a live human being. What you are really doing is attempting to seduce us into a "compromise" on the issue of life or death. This compromise would have many other ramnifications. So I'm not buying it.

Since the heartbeat begins in the third week, why are the first two weeks so important to you? Why not instead focus on the weeks and months before conception ever occurs? That is where the true "choice" for women lies.

 

[dilloduck]

The point IS to minimize aborted children

How about eliminating abortion being the goal?

 

[manu1959]

outlaw abortion, expect for cases where the mother's life was endangered....

define endangered

 

[Shogun]

Even though you sound nice and reasonable you are still advocating the destruction of a live human being. What you are really doing is attempting to seduce us into a "compromise" on the issue of life or death. This compromise would have many other ramnifications. So I'm not buying it.

Since the heartbeat begins in the third week, why are the first two weeks so important to you? Why not instead focus on the weeks and months before conception ever occurs? That is where the true "choice" for women lies.

You don't seem interested in considering the opinions of those that disagree with you as valid so why would you believe that your opinion should be considered at all? You can believe what you will. If the offer of a common mutual compromise is lost on you then so be it. I understand that some people will stubbornly insist that the world revolve around their opinion. Be that as it may I guess i'm looking for people who are a little less concerned about winning and a little more concerned with a UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Believe what you will. You will never force everyone to conform to your opinion. This is what results in polarization since we can ALL bury ourselves in our respective corners.

again, Im looking for a willingness to COMPROMISE on polar issues. If this does not apply to you then ill bif you a good day, sir.

 

[Shogun]

How about eliminating abortion being the goal?

Are you willing to allow every form of birth control up to and including the morning after pill and vivid realistic sex education in public schools with a federal constitutional amendment protecting individual privacy?

 

[dilloduck]

Are you willing to allow every form of birth control up to and including the morning after pill and vivid realistic sex education in public schools with a federal constitutional amendment protecting individual privacy?

you bet, if you will guarantee to outlaw abortion.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You don't seem interested in considering the opinions of those that disagree with you as valid so why would you believe that your opinion should be considered at all? You can believe what you will. If the offer of a common mutual compromise is lost on you then so be it. I understand that some people will stubbornly insist that the world revolve around their opinion. Be that as it may I guess i'm looking for people who are a little less concerned about winning and a little more concerned with a UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Believe what you will. You will never force everyone to conform to your opinion. This is what results in polarization since we can ALL bury ourselves in our respective corners.

again, Im looking for a willingness to COMPROMISE on polar issues. If this does not apply to you then ill bif you a good day, sir.

If I wanted to kill you and you wanted to stay alive, how would we compromise on that?