The Foundation of New Atheism

[Indeependent]

I suggest studying.
You say good idea, but no buying books.
Today you insist on not studying.

Which is the real you?

I'm here to study at your feet but you refuse to teach. I've read the Torah, the NT, some Eastern stuff, and a bit of the Koran (probably <20 suras). They all seem equally believable.

Torah cannot be taught on a message board.
Guide? Yes.
Teach? No.
And when you learn you will understand retrospectively (perhaps within 1 year) why comparative religion questions are silly in my eyes.

 

[ChrisL]

Why the heck can't you just TELL us what they say about the formation of galaxies and such things? You claim this, you claim that, but you don't even give any explanation whatsoever. Why should anyone take you for anything other than your average USMB nutcase?

 

[ChrisL]

MOST people have jobs, families and lives and don't have the time to devote 8 hours a day to studying a Torah. Most people have REAL lives to live and obligations and responsibilities to live up to.

 

[Meriweather]

I haven't read ALL the scriptures. Who has besides someone with no life or a religious scholar of some kind? Anyhow, I don't need to read all the scriptures because it is the entire concept that I don't believe, not the particulars.

I am not saying that there are not some good things contained within these scriptures and some good advice and lessons. I just don't buy into the concept of a god is all.

Even people who have--who remembers everything? I've found there are entire scriptures that do not pertain to my life. I have had some pretty good instruction along the way. Those who attend Sunday Mass read through the Bible every three years. Daily Mass takes participants through the Bible every year. Even so, one must listen, identify what is being said, and then learn to apply that lesson in ones' life the coming week. If I don't concentrate and pay attention, I forget all the readings even before I walk down the Church steps.

"What are we supposed to incorporate last week? Did we do this?" is a question a priest suggested we ask ourselves at every Mass. Another suggested going over the readings before we come to Church. On the way to Church, prepare our own sermon. Then, if the priest's sermon disappoints, we have something to fall back on.

I ran into God when I was ten. An experience like that prompts one to pay attention and take a greater interest. But I agree. Life is so busy how can one study all there is to study?

 

[Meriweather]

That shouldn't matter since you cannot predict anything about how one will turn out, religious or non-religious. All children should have an opportunity to be cleansed of the original sin if there was one. They are not guilty of anything. Does this also mean that a stillborn fetus is not going to heaven because they are cursed with a sin because Eve ate a damn apple off the tree of knowledge and evil (let's note how they put knowledge and evil together- that's no accident). What about a young newborn who hasn't been baptized yet? I suppose there are some exceptions to the rules?

Correct. Free will means one can change one's mind. Remember, Baptism is the visible sign of an invisible reality. Just because some never had the opportunity to act out the signs of the invisible reality, doesn't mean they were not "cleansed" (as you say). Original Sin is not a statement of guilt. Rather, it is a statement of awareness of the human condition, a recognition that humans have choices, and that those choices matter. Eve discovered that, and so has everyone else.

Scripture doesn't address what happens if. We leave that to God.

 

[ChrisL]

That shouldn't matter since you cannot predict anything about how one will turn out, religious or non-religious. All children should have an opportunity to be cleansed of the original sin if there was one. They are not guilty of anything. Does this also mean that a stillborn fetus is not going to heaven because they are cursed with a sin because Eve ate a damn apple off the tree of knowledge and evil (let's note how they put knowledge and evil together- that's no accident). What about a young newborn who hasn't been baptized yet? I suppose there are some exceptions to the rules?

Correct. Free will means one can change one's mind. Remember, Baptism is the visible sign of an invisible reality. Just because some never had the opportunity to act out the signs of the invisible reality, doesn't mean they were not "cleansed" (as you say). Original Sin is not a statement of guilt. Rather, it is a statement of awareness of the human condition, a recognition that humans have choices, and that those choices matter. Eve discovered that, and so has everyone else.

Scripture doesn't address what happens if. We leave that to God.

Why is it a different story from just about every religious person I hear from? Who is right and who is wrong?

 

[ChrisL]

That shouldn't matter since you cannot predict anything about how one will turn out, religious or non-religious. All children should have an opportunity to be cleansed of the original sin if there was one. They are not guilty of anything. Does this also mean that a stillborn fetus is not going to heaven because they are cursed with a sin because Eve ate a damn apple off the tree of knowledge and evil (let's note how they put knowledge and evil together- that's no accident). What about a young newborn who hasn't been baptized yet? I suppose there are some exceptions to the rules?

Correct. Free will means one can change one's mind. Remember, Baptism is the visible sign of an invisible reality. Just because some never had the opportunity to act out the signs of the invisible reality, doesn't mean they were not "cleansed" (as you say). Original Sin is not a statement of guilt. Rather, it is a statement of awareness of the human condition, a recognition that humans have choices, and that those choices matter. Eve discovered that, and so has everyone else.

Scripture doesn't address what happens if. We leave that to God.

So what about all the talk of Hell then? Which sins do you believe would be worth burning and tormenting someone for all eternity in a place called Hell with "gnashing teeth" and "writhing agony"?

 

[ChrisL]

If there is a god and there is a hell where people go to be tortured for eternity, then I have to disagree with this god's methods. If I don't agree with it or if I feel it is bad, then I cannot be expected to worship this entity.

 

[Meriweather]

They call us "sheep" in some of these holy books. I know that much. Lol. The "flock". Don't stray from the flock! Knowledge is bad. Knowledge is the equivalence of evil pretty much (unless it includes a god being involved). The burning in hell for all eternity and the punishment for not being a believer aspect. I know these things may vary from book to book, but they are all basically the same, no?

The purpose of the Good Shepherd, is that should you stray and be lost, he will look for you.

 

[ChrisL]

They call us "sheep" in some of these holy books. I know that much. Lol. The "flock". Don't stray from the flock! Knowledge is bad. Knowledge is the equivalence of evil pretty much (unless it includes a god being involved). The burning in hell for all eternity and the punishment for not being a believer aspect. I know these things may vary from book to book, but they are all basically the same, no?

The purpose of the Good Shepherd, is that should you stray and be lost, he will look for you.

I don't want someone who would torture people for an eternity to find me. I would be fearful of this "god" and that would be the only reason why I would be worshipping him, out of FEAR and not respect. Is that good?

 

[ChrisL]

No loving parent would never condemn their children to the bowels of hell to suffer, no matter how "difficult" they might be. If all of these things are true, then this is not someone I would ever worship even if he promises some kind of "heaven" in an afterlife in exchange. I can't be bought.

 

[Meriweather]

So what about all the talk of Hell then? Which sins do you believe would be worth burning and tormenting someone for all eternity in a place called Hell with "gnashing teeth" and "writhing agony"?

There is a choice before us. Love God (or Godly ways for non-believers); love and serve one another. This is the way to an eternity with God. God is not going to force anyone into an eternity of loving and serving Him and one another. If evil, hate, and selfishness is what makes you happy, you won't want to spend eternity with God.

 

[ChrisL]

So what about all the talk of Hell then? Which sins do you believe would be worth burning and tormenting someone for all eternity in a place called Hell with "gnashing teeth" and "writhing agony"?

There is a choice before us. Love God (or Godly ways for non-believers); love and serve one another. This is the way to an eternity with God. God is not going to force anyone into an eternity of loving and serving Him and one another. If evil, hate, and selfishness is what makes you happy, you won't want to spend eternity with God.

So those who don't wish to serve a god who tortures people for an eternity in a place called hell are evil, hateful and selfish, eh?

 

[ChrisL]

From the descriptions of God, I can only surmise that he is the one who seems evil, hateful and selfish. Why would anyone want to worship such a horrid creature who would treat his creations in such a manner simply because they won't worship him? That is absolutely appalling by any measure.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Atheists do have reasons why they became atheists.

True in my case at least. I was not yet a teenager when I thought why would one God allow so many religions to exist? They couldn't all be right since they were so different. I couldn't believe a loving God would allow someone to be sent to hell because they were born into the wrong religion and never learned about the 'right' one. The only logical conclusion, at least to me, was that they were ALL wrong. Since that day, I've never found a reason to change my mind. .

I remember thinking the same thing. All gods and all religions say theirs is the only one, the only way so, what it finally comes down to is either you are indoctrinated buy your parents or you find the religion that serves your needs. Before that can happen though, you must start with the basic belief in an invisible super being.

And that's as far as I could go. No matter how much I went to church or Sunday school, I could not get past that. I really remember, as a child, Sunday school in the church basement. Little cut outs of various characters, including Jesus and god. It was always cold down there, always the strong smell of mimeograph ink (anyone else remember that smell? Or the clunky machine that made the copies?). A middle aged woman in a flowery dress and silly hat, preaching and sticking the paper cut outs on a felt covered board. I was about 12 when I decided I was done with that.

Later, college course in comparative religions made it all the more obvious that none of them held any attraction to me and I still couldn't wrap my head around the whole invisible flying sky fairy thing.

Through the years, I've come to hate the innate divisive nature of religion as well as the really toxic and cruel beliefs held by christians - that they can do anything, commit any crime but if they ask forgiveness, all is forgiven and they can just go out and do it all again. Compare that to the belief that if a baby dies with out having been baptized, god will burn them in hell forever. Same with decent adults. You can spend your life doing good works but, according to chrisitans, if you don't takegodasyourpersonalsavior, you'll burn in hell forever.

Serious question: WHY would anyone worship THAT??? Even ISIS lets the torture end with death. How is the christian god "merciful"?

Nowadays, fundies have turned christianity into the giant hate group I believe it has always been. There is little similarity between what Jesus supposedly taught and the way christians believe.

Sorry to have written so much. I believe that being atheist is the natural state of human beings. That's they we are born. Believing in any of the gods or religions must be a very difficult thing indeed.

 

[Indeependent]

Atheists do have reasons why they became atheists.

True in my case at least. I was not yet a teenager when I thought why would one God allow so many religions to exist? They couldn't all be right since they were so different. I couldn't believe a loving God would allow someone to be sent to hell because they were born into the wrong religion and never learned about the 'right' one. The only logical conclusion, at least to me, was that they were ALL wrong. Since that day, I've never found a reason to change my mind. .

I remember thinking the same thing. All gods and all religions say theirs is the only one, the only way so, what it finally comes down to is either you are indoctrinated buy your parents or you find the religion that serves your needs. Before that can happen though, you must start with the basic belief in an invisible super being.

And that's as far as I could go. No matter how much I went to church or Sunday school, I could not get past that. I really remember, as a child, Sunday school in the church basement. Little cut outs of various characters, including Jesus and god. It was always cold down there, always the strong smell of mimeograph ink (anyone else remember that smell? Or the clunky machine that made the copies?). A middle aged woman in a flowery dress and silly hat, preaching and sticking the paper cut outs on a felt covered board. I was about 12 when I decided I was done with that.

Later, college course in comparative religions made it all the more obvious that none of them held any attraction to me and I still couldn't wrap my head around the whole invisible flying sky fairy thing.

Through the years, I've come to hate the innate divisive nature of religion as well as the really toxic and cruel beliefs held by christians - that they can do anything, commit any crime but if they ask forgiveness, all is forgiven and they can just go out and do it all again. Compare that to the belief that if a baby dies with out having been baptized, god will burn them in hell forever. Same with decent adults. You can spend your life doing good works but, according to chrisitans, if you don't takegodasyourpersonalsavior, you'll burn in hell forever.

Serious question: WHY would anyone worship THAT??? Even ISIS lets the torture end with death. How is the christian god "merciful"?

Nowadays, fundies have turned christianity into the giant hate group I believe it has always been. There is little similarity between what Jesus supposedly taught and the way christians believe.

Sorry to have written so much. I believe that being atheist is the natural state of human beings. That's they we are born. Believing in any of the gods or religions must be a very difficult thing indeed.

In other words, you're a child in an adult body.
Most people never leave their childhood trauma behind.
You have to be lucky to encounter someone honest and caring enough to make you want to grow up.

 

[ChrisL]

So what about all the talk of Hell then? Which sins do you believe would be worth burning and tormenting someone for all eternity in a place called Hell with "gnashing teeth" and "writhing agony"?

There is a choice before us. Love God (or Godly ways for non-believers); love and serve one another. This is the way to an eternity with God. God is not going to force anyone into an eternity of loving and serving Him and one another. If evil, hate, and selfishness is what makes you happy, you won't want to spend eternity with God.

I think you and I are on completely different planes of reality. I am not evil, hateful or selfish. You see, in my viewpoint, a person who would worship such an entity in return for some kind of "treasures" after death or just to avoid an unjust punishment is the one who is selfish. I wonder how many people can understand that? That is NOT okay with me. I will not worship any creature that treats living beings in such a manner.

 

[ChrisL]

Living beings that HE placed here. We didn't decide this! You say we control our own destinies, but if what you claim is true, we do not! Not at all!

It's all such a mish-mash of opinions and interpretations, and it is exhaustingly confusing when everyone tells you something different. It seems there is really NO general consensus in what god does or wants. Is there a hell or isn't there? Are we living a life scripted by a god or are we free to go our own way and make our own decisions. With the threat of eternal damnation laying over your head, that doesn't really give you much in the way of "free will" now does it? Is that appropriate? Is it appropriate to threaten your own creations into worshiping you in such a manner? To me, that is terrible and evil and selfish. This is just another reason why I believe god is man made material. If gods were real, I would hope a god would not be so petty and jealous and horrid. I would hope that his belief system would be attractive and lure me with it's beauty and peacefulness and tranquility, not with threats of violence and harm and pain!

 

[Meriweather]

I don't want someone who would torture people for an eternity to find me. I would be fearful of this "god" and that would be the only reason why I would be worshipping him, out of FEAR and not respect. Is that good?

For me, that's kind of an odd way of looking at God and eternity. If you don't want God's love or to love and serve others, but God made you do it anyway, that would be torture. Instead, God says that if you don't want to be with Him, you don't have to be. For some of us, doing without the love of God and others would be torture. To each his own choice.

 

[alang1216]

Serious question: WHY would anyone worship THAT???

We are social animals and want to be part of something bigger than just us. We also imprint on our parents and follow them for the rest of our lives.