The Foundation of New Atheism

[ChrisL]

I want to know exactly what you think is misinterpreted though. The warring tribes and how the "chosen ones" will always win every war? Hell? The "punishment" for nonbelievers and other sinners? There is no hell? I'm not sure exactly what you are not agreeing with here.

Jews did not believe they were chosen to win every war. They believe they were chosen to be the people of the Messiah, not chosen to be first at everything.

I believe hell is eternal separation from God, and the choice made by each individual.

Well, I don't see how it's "hell" to be separated from the one who would just as soon throw your arse into a pit of fire.

 

[Meriweather]

Another question I have is does the New Testament mean that the Old Testament is not "valid" anymore? Is it just a continuation of a story where they left out a lot of things? Did God change his mind about some things that were in the OT? If he is so powerful, why can he just not send people to Hell or however people get to Hell instead of having to have his alleged son die a slow horrible and painful death to prevent it? Again, things just don't add up for me here.

Testament is another word for Covenant. The Old Covenant, the New Covenant. Both are everlasting covenants. Blood is the sign of a Covenant.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, I don't see how it's "hell" to be separated from the one who would just as soon throw your arse into a pit of fire.

Except, that is not God, but a wrong conclusion about God. What if everyone kept making wrong conclusions about you and insisted on standing by them. Would you want that person close to you? I believe God will give you a chance to see Him as He really is. However, if you trust, not God, but your own conclusions...what do you think should happen?

 

[ChrisL]

Another question I have is does the New Testament mean that the Old Testament is not "valid" anymore? Is it just a continuation of a story where they left out a lot of things? Did God change his mind about some things that were in the OT? If he is so powerful, why can he just not send people to Hell or however people get to Hell instead of having to have his alleged son die a slow horrible and painful death to prevent it? Again, things just don't add up for me here.

Testament is another word for Covenant. The Old Covenant, the New Covenant. Both are everlasting covenants. Blood is the sign of a Covenant.

That's all you have to say about it? What do you mean by blood is the sign of a covenant? What is this crazy magic you speak of? Lol! It seems very rooted in superstition, especially when you add in that sentence "blood is the sign of a covenant."

 

[ChrisL]

Well, I don't see how it's "hell" to be separated from the one who would just as soon throw your arse into a pit of fire.

Except, that is not God, but a wrong conclusion about God. What if everyone kept making wrong conclusions about you and insisted on standing by them. Would you want that person close to you? I believe God will give you a chance to see Him as He really is. However, if you trust, not God, but your own conclusions...what do you think should happen?

What is the wrong conclusion? Is there or is there not a Hell? Why don't we work from there?

 

[ChrisL]

I think is there a hell and what is the reason for it's existence to be a good starting point for seeing exactly what I am missing here. Because, I remember quite clearly reading about and being taught about hell when I was a child.

Well, I don't see how it's "hell" to be separated from the one who would just as soon throw your arse into a pit of fire.

Except, that is not God, but a wrong conclusion about God. What if everyone kept making wrong conclusions about you and insisted on standing by them. Would you want that person close to you? I believe God will give you a chance to see Him as He really is. However, if you trust, not God, but your own conclusions...what do you think should happen?

What do YOU think should happen is what I am worried about!

 

[ChrisL]

Well, I don't see how it's "hell" to be separated from the one who would just as soon throw your arse into a pit of fire.

Except, that is not God, but a wrong conclusion about God. What if everyone kept making wrong conclusions about you and insisted on standing by them. Would you want that person close to you? I believe God will give you a chance to see Him as He really is. However, if you trust, not God, but your own conclusions...what do you think should happen?

Do you think an appropriate "punishment" is for me to burn and suffer in pain for all eternity? Seriously?

 

[ChrisL]

Don't you think that a god who created me would realize that he created me with imperfections and therefore cannot expect me to be perfect and to always make good decisions? Would he not realize that we know relatively LITTLE about him due to his own secrecy and hiding from us and not making himself known to us except for in a book that is thousands of years old and full of strange, violent and far fetched stories? He will punish US for this?

 

[ChrisL]

These and other questions have always REALLY bothered me, and this is one of the reasons why I've come to the conclusion that this is not any real or true god. This is a manufactured god to scare the masses into behaving or maybe for some other reasons that I'm not aware of.

 

[Indeependent]

There is nothing new under the sun.
Every jerk who comes up with another twist on the, "There's no God", simply displays the fact that they haven't studied Scripture.

Read it.....no more proof than any other fairy tale

Each of us will find out eventually.

 

[ChrisL]

"I won't ever speak to you or show myself to you because you didn't believe in me, even though I purposefully kept myself hidden from you just so that I can throw you into a pit of fire or abandon you forever and make you suffer in some way."

Really? This is what I am to respect, admire and worship?

 

[Meriweather]

We are talking about damning human beings to HELL for eternity here for not believing in God. We are not talking about doing the "good work." That is an odd way of looking at the concept of Hell.

No. That's how you see it. Catholics don't see it that way, and neither do Jews. In fact, Jews believe God's Law is about helping us out in this life, not a way of progressing to the next. For some reason, someone taught you Dantes version of hell. That's fiction. Forget it.

 

[Meriweather]

"I won't ever speak to you or show myself to you because you didn't believe in me, even though I purposefully kept myself hidden from you just so that I can throw you into a pit of fire or abandon you forever and make you suffer in some way."

Really? This is what I am to respect, admire and worship?

No. God is love. Start with that.

 

[Meriweather]

Through the years, I've come to hate the innate divisive nature of religion as well as the really toxic and cruel beliefs held by christians - that they can do anything, commit any crime but if they ask forgiveness, all is forgiven and they can just go out and do it all again. Compare that to the belief that if a baby dies with out having been baptized, god will burn them in hell forever. Same with decent adults. You can spend your life doing good works but, according to chrisitans, if you don't takegodasyourpersonalsavior, you'll burn in hell forever.

Serious question: WHY would anyone worship THAT???

Serious answer. No one believes that. First, after committing a crime one has to go the authorities and confess what one did. They must make restitution. They must pay the price society decrees. They must resolve never to commit the crime again and be sincerely sorry (not just lip service sorry) for what they did. Finally, it is God who judges the heart and the sincerity of it. God is a God of Justice, so that must be taken into account as well.

No one ever taught an unbaptized baby goes to hell. What was taught and emphasized is that because Scripture doesn't address the issue, we are in limbo as to what happens. We.don't.know. This was emphasized so much that people began thinking Limbo was a place for unbaptized babies. Not too many years ago, the original teaching about us being limbo (not babies being Limbo) was reemphasized.

Some people who are first to state they don't believe what isn't true sure seem to have an easy time believing things (like the above) that aren't true.

 

[Meriweather]

I came to this view after reading the Bible, which describes a jealous petty and vengeful sounding God. One who would "test" a man by asking him to sacrifice his child and torture a man to test his faith.

Abraham didn't live in our time. He lived in a time where people believed in many gods and many of these gods seemed to insist on child sacrifice. It is told that Abraham came from a family who sold totems, or images of what people then believed to hold the power of a god. An image of a bull had the power of a bull, etc. Abraham came to the realization that there were not many gods, one for everyone--but one God for all.

It seemed natural to Abraham when God asked for child sacrifice. In his culture that's what gods did. What was astonishing to Abraham is that God stayed his hand--no child sacrifice. From that day forward descendants of Abraham rejected the idea of child sacrifice that was still going on all around them. Faith, not child sacrifice, was what God wanted. Faith was enough, and it was a lesson the Jews did not forget.

 

[Meriweather]

That is untrue for MANY people. Follow our parents? Nope. I can name (and so can many other posters, I'm sure) of many times when that is surely not the case at all. Some people strive to be the opposite of their parents. Some people cut off their parents completely. It is more likely due to fear. That is probably why a large majority of people believe. They feel they have to or their souls will be damned, like what was banged into their heads since they were children. The "fear of god."

And many other children learned that "fear of God" is not having to be afraid. Rather, it better translates as the awe that God inspires.

 

[Meriweather]

We are talking about damning human beings to HELL for eternity here for not believing in God. We are not talking about doing the "good work." That is an odd way of looking at the concept of Hell.

No, we are not talking about that, because we don't believe the Dantes Inferno version of hell despite some who still buy into it. Separation from God, yes. Torture, no.

 

[Thunderbird]

They call us "sheep" in some of these holy books. I know that much. Lol. The "flock". Don't stray from the flock! Knowledge is bad. Knowledge is the equivalence of evil pretty much (unless it includes a god being involved).

What an ignorant generalization!

Christian monks have copied manuscripts and saved them from destruction. Christians have founded many universities.

Catholic scientists: List of Catholic churchmen-scientists - Wikipedia

Check this out: Science, Religion, and A. D. White

Try opening your mind up a bit ChrisL and cut back on your bigotry.

And remember atheists have been very intolerant: Trofim Lysenko and Soviet Science

 

[Thunderbird]

At the same time as they are talking about "good" and "evil" they tell you about warring tribes and how God's chosen tribes will "strike down" the others. Sounds like a video game for the gods and we are the characters in this charade.

There are some primitive ideas about God in the Old Testament alongside profound ideas about God. Of course for Christians the New Testament is paramount.

 

[Thunderbird]

I guess nobody can defend positivism/reductionism, the foundation of atheist ideology.