The Foundation of New Atheism

[ChrisL]

I don't want someone who would torture people for an eternity to find me. I would be fearful of this "god" and that would be the only reason why I would be worshipping him, out of FEAR and not respect. Is that good?

For me, that's kind of an odd way of looking at God and eternity. If you don't want God's love or to love and serve others, but God made you do it anyway, that would be torture. Instead, God says that if you don't want to be with Him, you don't have to be. For some of us, doing without the love of God and others would be torture. To each his own choice.

We are talking about damning human beings to HELL for eternity here for not believing in God. We are not talking about doing the "good work." That is an odd way of looking at the concept of Hell.

 

[ChrisL]

Serious question: WHY would anyone worship THAT???

We are social animals and want to be part of something bigger than just us. We also imprint on our parents and follow them for the rest of our lives.

That is untrue for MANY people. Follow our parents? Nope. I can name (and so can many other posters, I'm sure) of many times when that is surely not the case at all. Some people strive to be the opposite of their parents. Some people cut off their parents completely. It is more likely due to fear. That is probably why a large majority of people believe. They feel they have to or their souls will be damned, like what was banged into their heads since they were children. The "fear of god."

 

[Meriweather]

I think you and I are on completely different planes of reality. I am not evil, hateful or selfish. You see, in my viewpoint, a person who would worship such an entity in return for some kind of "treasures" after death or just to avoid an unjust punishment is the one who is selfish. I wonder how many people can understand that? That is NOT okay with me. I will not worship any creature that treats living beings in such a manner.

I don't know who taught you that view of God. The view I was taught (and later experienced) is that of love. Jesus taught that way of Eternal Life, which is the way of love of God and others. If you don't choose to love God or others, then you will not see heaven as having any treasure at all. If you choose to love, then that is the first treasure you will find in heaven. Who knows what the others are.

If you prefer hate and evil over love and service, you don't have to go to heaven. There is another place prepared for you that the rest of us see as a horrible, terrible, awful very bad place. That doesn't mean it seems like that to people who enjoy hate and evil.

If you are not evil, hateful, or selfish, I doubt you have much to worry about, but I cannot absolutely assure you of that because I can't know what is truly in your heart. All I can assure you of is that God is love beyond our greatest ability to imagine. And, I want to spend my eternity with Him and serving Him.

 

[ChrisL]

I think you and I are on completely different planes of reality. I am not evil, hateful or selfish. You see, in my viewpoint, a person who would worship such an entity in return for some kind of "treasures" after death or just to avoid an unjust punishment is the one who is selfish. I wonder how many people can understand that? That is NOT okay with me. I will not worship any creature that treats living beings in such a manner.

I don't know who taught you that view of God. The view I was taught (and later experienced) is that of love. Jesus taught that way of Eternal Life, which is the way of love of God and others. If you don't choose to love God or others, then you will not see heaven as having any treasure at all. If you choose to love, then that is the first treasure you will find in heaven. Who knows what the others are.

If you prefer hate and evil over love and service, you don't have to go to heaven. There is another place prepared for you that the rest of us see as a horrible, terrible, awful very bad place. That doesn't mean it seems like that to people who enjoy hate and evil.

If you are not evil, hateful, or selfish, I doubt you have much to worry about, but I cannot absolutely assure you of that because I can't know what is truly in your heart. All I can assure you of is that God is love beyond our greatest ability to imagine. And, I want to spend my eternity with Him and serving Him.

I came to this view after reading the Bible, which describes a jealous petty and vengeful sounding God. One who would "test" a man by asking him to sacrifice his child and torture a man to test his faith.

 

[ChrisL]

At the same time as they are talking about "good" and "evil" they tell you about warring tribes and how God's chosen tribes will "strike down" the others. Sounds like a video game for the gods and we are the characters in this charade.

 

[Meriweather]

Living beings that HE placed here. We didn't decide this! You say we control our own destinies, but if what you claim is true, we do not! Not at all!

It's all such a mish-mash of opinions and interpretations, and it is exhaustingly confusing when everyone tells you something different. It seems there is really NO general consensus in what god does or wants. Is there a hell or isn't there? Are we living a life scripted by a god or are we free to go our own way and make our own decisions. With the threat of eternal damnation laying over your head, that doesn't really give you much in the way of "free will" now does it? Is that appropriate? Is it appropriate to threaten your own creations into worshiping you in such a manner? To me, that is terrible and evil and selfish. This is just another reason why I believe god is man made material. If gods were real, I would hope a god would not be so petty and jealous and horrid. I would hope that his belief system would be attractive and lure me with it's beauty and peacefulness and tranquility, not with threats of violence and harm and pain!

Too many people prefer fiction (Dante's Inferno) to believing God is truly a being of love.

 

[rightwinger]

The foundation of New (or is it old) Atheism is logical positivism. The petulant adolescent boys who are so devoted to atheism cling to logical positivism or some closely related ideology (scientism or materialism or reductionism).

These ideologies are seriously flawed.

Logical Positivism & the New Atheists

Five Things Science Cannot Prove (but are necessary for science to work)

The Hollow Men: Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris

What can be "new" about Atheism?

You just don't believe

 

[rightwinger]

There is nothing new under the sun.
Every jerk who comes up with another twist on the, "There's no God", simply displays the fact that they haven't studied Scripture.

Read it.....no more proof than any other fairy tale

 

[Meriweather]

I came to this view after reading the Bible, which describes a jealous petty and vengeful sounding God. One who would "test" a man by asking him to sacrifice his child and torture a man to test his faith.

Exactly. You read the Bible as an English speaking, modern American. (You note that who has time to do actual study.) Yet when scripture is read in the original language, with an understanding of the cultures of those days, a very different understanding of God (from the perspective of those involved) emerges. "Jealous", for example takes on a quite different meaning and understanding.

The test of Abraham was to drive home a point to him and his culture that human sacrifice is not wanted.

 

[ChrisL]

I came to this view after reading the Bible, which describes a jealous petty and vengeful sounding God. One who would "test" a man by asking him to sacrifice his child and torture a man to test his faith.

Exactly. You read the Bible as an English speaking, modern American. (You note that who has time to do actual study.) Yet when scripture is read in the original language, with an understanding of the cultures of those days, a very different understanding of God (from the perspective of those involved) emerges. "Jealous", for example takes on a quite different meaning and understanding.

The test of Abraham was to drive home a point to him and his culture that human sacrifice is not wanted.

I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect to you, but the limits to which some of you will go to justify this is really . . . unacceptable.

 

[Meriweather]

At the same time as they are talking about "good" and "evil" they tell you about warring tribes and how God's chosen tribes will "strike down" the others. Sounds like a video game for the gods and we are the characters in this charade.

Again, original language, original culture, original intent. Those are lost to most modern age people. Because of this they reach conclusions the authors never intended.

 

[ChrisL]

At the same time as they are talking about "good" and "evil" they tell you about warring tribes and how God's chosen tribes will "strike down" the others. Sounds like a video game for the gods and we are the characters in this charade.

Again, original language, original culture, original intent. Those are lost to most modern age people. Because of this they reach conclusions the authors never intended.

So what was the intention then? Are you saying the Bible, which was an international version of the Catholic Bible, that I read was interpreted wrong and YOU know the real true interpretations of these scriptures? Call me skeptical.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect to you, but the limits to which some of you will go to justify this is really . . . unacceptable.

I get that, I really do. On the other hand I tend to think modern day atheists give themselves an easy excuse: Misinterpret scripture--which is extremely easy to do--rather than make a decades long study of it (extremely hard to do). Further, based on that modern day conclusion, excuse oneself from one's own personal pursuit of God--which also takes decades.

Here is the deal. Jesus tells a story of vineyard workers. Those who work from start to finish receive the same reward as those who work an hour or less. This is as it should be. I have had my blessings from the path I chose, and you seem happy with the path you chose.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect to you, but the limits to which some of you will go to justify this is really . . . unacceptable.

I get that, I really do. On the other hand I tend to think modern day atheists give themselves an easy excuse: Misinterpret scripture--which is extremely easy to do--rather than make a decades long study of it (extremely hard to do). Further, based on that modern day conclusion, excuse oneself from one's own personal pursuit of God--which also takes decades.

Here is the deal. Jesus tells a story of vineyard workers. Those who work from start to finish receive the same reward as those who work an hour or less. This is as it should be. I have had my blessings from the path I chose, and you seem happy with the path you chose.

How do you feel it is misinterpreted? I read an international version of the Bible, not some weird altered version. It is the version of the Bible on which MOST experts agree.

 

[ChrisL]

At the same time as they are talking about "good" and "evil" they tell you about warring tribes and how God's chosen tribes will "strike down" the others. Sounds like a video game for the gods and we are the characters in this charade.

Again, original language, original culture, original intent. Those are lost to most modern age people. Because of this they reach conclusions the authors never intended.

I want to know exactly what you think is misinterpreted though. The warring tribes and how the "chosen ones" will always win every war? Hell? The "punishment" for nonbelievers and other sinners? There is no hell? I'm not sure exactly what you are not agreeing with here.

 

[Meriweather]

So what was the intention then? Are you saying the Bible, which was an international version of the Catholic Bible, that I read was interpreted wrong and YOU know the real true interpretations of these scriptures? Call me skeptical.

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying I rely heavily on rabbinical interpretation for the Old Testament. I do go back to the original language. I study the cultures. This does not make me "right". It just gives me a broader understanding of the lessons the original authors were conveying.

On the other hand, some insist their interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit and is more correct for people today.

 

[Meriweather]

How do you feel it is misinterpreted? I read an international version of the Bible, not some weird altered version. It is the version of the Bible on which MOST experts agree.

Rapture is a prime example of something that has been misinterpreted.

 

[ChrisL]

Another question I have is does the New Testament mean that the Old Testament is not "valid" anymore? Is it just a continuation of a story where they left out a lot of things? Did God change his mind about some things that were in the OT? If he is so powerful, why can he just not send people to Hell or however people get to Hell instead of having to have his alleged son die a slow horrible and painful death to prevent it? Again, things just don't add up for me here.

 

[Meriweather]

I want to know exactly what you think is misinterpreted though. The warring tribes and how the "chosen ones" will always win every war? Hell? The "punishment" for nonbelievers and other sinners? There is no hell? I'm not sure exactly what you are not agreeing with here.

Jews did not believe they were chosen to win every war. They believe they were chosen to be the people of the Messiah, not chosen to be first at everything.

I believe hell is eternal separation from God, and the choice made by each individual.

 

[ChrisL]

So what was the intention then? Are you saying the Bible, which was an international version of the Catholic Bible, that I read was interpreted wrong and YOU know the real true interpretations of these scriptures? Call me skeptical.

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying I rely heavily on rabbinical interpretation for the Old Testament. I do go back to the original language. I study the cultures. This does not make me "right". It just gives me a broader understanding of the lessons the original authors were conveying.

On the other hand, some insist their interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit and is more correct for people today.

Well, I see what you are saying, but I still don't see how that makes any of these things good, righteous, or just in any way or how that invalidates the internationally accepted version of the Bible?

If you rely on the rabbinical interpretation, would that make you Jewish though? Aren't the Bible and the Torah (which is the Jewish holy book, I believe?), two different books? I am talking about the Bible of course.