The Disintegration of Liberal Democracy

[Lisa558]

RFK Jr was nominated by parties all over the country. Didn't you know that? Never won a primary.

Is that okay with you?

Huh? The Republicans put the winner of their primary as the presidential nominee, and the Democrats ran the demented winner of their primary out and put in the idiot who was selected for female blackness.

 

[Independent thinker]

No we don't.

Trump is doing socialist things and you seem fine with it.

And no one has ever called Trump the king of capitalism.

Well, you say that Trump is using the system to make himself rich. Isn't that a prime example of capitalism? 90% of what Trump does is not socialist. The other 10% could be argued to be socialist. What you guys want is 100% socialism, so I'll take Trump's 10% socialism over your 100% socialism any day.

 

[Jarod the Original]

The reports of the death of Liberal Democracy is an exaggeration!

I hope so, but several nations have shown an inclination toward doing away with it, especially the Western ones. China is kind of a Dictatorship, they promote many fascist ideologies toward their people, but support free trade and open borders which is decidedly not Fascist.

 

[Jarod the Original]

Hmmm. That sounds too binary to me. There has been a rise of fascism within the borders of countries still considered to be classically liberal. Largely due to immigrant backlash, a consequence of Bush's Iraq misadventure and the mass migration from the ME it caused. In some countries authoritarian rule has never been vanquished. In others it's making a comeback.

In times of uncertainty people tend to be attracted to leaders offering simplistic, nativist oriented solutions (trump) to appease their fear and anger. Frequently resulting in curbing or attempting to curb civil liberties and institutional norms(trump).

I agree it is too binary, you can never say something is all inclusive. There has always been a mix, but I do believe the United States and GB are moving away from Classic Liberal Democracy. I think the next Presidential election and how the next president governs will tell us if this move is a powerful faction or if it was just temporary.

Exclusive of China, I think all of the 1st world nations have been largely Classic Democracies since WWII. Russia tried until Putin became the Dictator.

 

[Independent thinker]

That’s the rub. You theoretically have the right to vote away your right to vote.
Voting age needs to be raised to 25.

What I'd actually like to see is only allowing citizens 18 or over to vote (checking their ID's) who actually pay income taxes to that particular locality. So, if you want to vote in federal elections to have a say in the federal government and how it's taxes are spent, then you actually have to be paying federal income taxes to the federal government. Same for state and local governments. If you're not supporting those governments then you should have no say in those governments.

 

[BlindBoo]

I hope so, but several nations have shown an inclination toward doing away with it, especially the Western ones. China is kind of a Dictatorship, they promote many fascist ideologies toward their people, but support free trade and open borders which is decidedly not Fascist.

Me 2. But to be historically blunt, the reports of the death of our illiberal democracy were exaggerated too.

 

[Independent thinker]

America has a long history of having some Socialism. It has always been a ballance. All Classic Liberal Democracies have some balance between Capitalism. IN fact, the fight has always been over that ballance.

There are plenty of Countries that have more socialism in their ballance than we do, but they are not Socialists. What Country would you call Socialist?

The progressives want 100% socialism, or close to it.

 

[Independent thinker]

Trump promotes and has passed many Bills that introduced additional Socialism into our system. He has also done the same with Capitalism. He does not show a clear inclination toward either.

Then posters here shouldn't be calling him a socialist.

 

[Jarod the Original]

It is notable that the side screaming that Trump is taking away democracy didn’t have a primary to allow its constituents to pick the nominee.

They certainty would have if Biden had announced his intention to retire earlier. Party primaries historical had nothing to do with Democracy until the 1970's. They are not Government entities and not required to be Democratic, although they largely are these days.

 

[Jarod the Original]

The US made 4 major mistakes in the 250 history that has led us to this point. Slavery, native American policy, Woodrow Wilson and prohibition.

Id throw a few more in, but that is not this thread.

 

[Independent thinker]

Hopefully he has been unsuccessful, we will see.

The fact that you guys believe you will do well in the midterms and in 2028 undermines your credibility when you claim Trump has taken democracy away. In fact, it proves you are lying when even you expect to do well in our future elections.

 

[M14 Shooter]

America was an -acy.... DemocrACY. Most of Europe are Classic Liberal Democracies.

This does not address my question.

The US is a very limited democracy, by intent.

 

[Marener]

Huh? The Republicans put the winner of their primary as the presidential nominee, and the Democrats ran the demented winner of their primary out and put in the idiot who was selected for female blackness.

I can’t tell if you’re trolling or if you’re genuinely unaware that there are more than two parties.

 

[Jarod the Original]

the U.S. is drifting away from its traditional, classical liberal moorings toward a more polarized "illiberal" or managed democracy.

This transformation away from a classical liberal democracy—which historically prioritizes the rule of law, individual rights, neutral institutions, and checks and balances—is often characterized by a few major trends:
Reddit·r/changemyview +1

• Democratic Downgrades: Prominent global indices, such as the V-Dem Institute, have shifted the U.S. classification away from a "liberal democracy," citing unprecedented weakening of institutional checks and protections against government overreach.
  Verfassungsblog +1
  
  
• The Rise of "Illiberalism": Both major political parties are trending toward populism, protectionism, and ideological polarization rather than broad classical liberal consensus. This includes a growing willingness to embrace executive centralization and use state power against domestic opponents.
  
  
• Erosion of Neutrality: There is mounting concern over the politicization of previously neutral institutions (e.g., the judiciary and law enforcement) and growing attempts to restrict public discourse or suppress opposing viewpoints.
  Reddit·r/changemyview +1

While the U.S. retains fundamental electoral mechanics, the institutional guardrails and individual rights that define classical liberalism are facing severe strain.

“The speed with which American democracy is currently dismantled is unprecedented in modern history,” the report writes. Within a year of the second Trump Administration, executive aggrandizement has severely weakened checks and balances and displayed astonishing disregard for the rule of law. No longer is the United States a pillar of liberal democracy – rather, for the first time in fifty years, it is slipping towards a democratic grey zone.

V-Dem currently places the U.S. as an electoral democracy, still retaining free and fair elections, but it has lost its liberal components: strong checks and balances, individual protections from “tyranny of the majority,” and constraints on government overreach.

100%, thank you for expanding on my OP, These are great examples. An erosion of belief in the Judiciary, the denigration of any opposition, and for sure the way we "Discuss" overall on the internet.

 

[Marener]

He was FORCED OUT. You need to stop lying.

Still waiting for you to explain what you mean by “forced” out?

This is the same party that says Biden should have been forced out of office by the 25th amendment.

 

[Jarod the Original]

He was FORCED OUT. You need to stop lying.

He won the primary, there is no way he could be "forced" out, he might have been convinced to drop out, that is not force. He did drop out, he should have never run for a second term. The timing prevented a normal process.

The elected Electors did vote, and all supported Harris. That is not how we normally do it, but it had a basis in Democracy as the electors were elected.

 

[Jarod the Original]

Huh? The Republicans put the winner of their primary as the presidential nominee, and the Democrats ran the demented winner of their primary out and put in the idiot who was selected for female blackness.

The electors who were sworn to Biden, elected Harris once Biden dropped out. The law says that if the candidate you are sworn to is no longer a candidate, they are free to cast their vote for a new candidate.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

What I'd actually like to see is only allowing citizens 18 or over to vote (checking their ID's) who actually pay income taxes to that particular locality. So, if you want to vote in federal elections to have a say in the federal government and how it's taxes are spent, then you actually have to be paying federal income taxes to the federal government. Same for state and local governments. If you're not supporting those governments then you should have no say in those governments.

I would restrict voting to only those who don’t register as democrat.

 

[Jarod the Original]

Well, you say that Trump is using the system to make himself rich. Isn't that a prime example of capitalism? 90% of what Trump does is not socialist. The other 10% could be argued to be socialist. What you guys want is 100% socialism, so I'll take Trump's 10% socialism over your 100% socialism any day.

Using your presidential power to make yourself rich is ABSOLUTELY anti-Capitalist. It is Fascist.

 

[Jarod the Original]

The progressives want 100% socialism, or close to it.

I don't think so. 100% socialism and 100% Capitalism are imposable.