The Catholic doctrine of purgatory

[Book of Jeremiah]

What a load of bullshit.

I didn't have to read but a few paragraphs to make that determination.

Where does is say in the Bible that purification is needed before entering the Kingdom of Heaven?

Right here as I already noted: "Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

And right here: And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

And right here: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And right here: "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

And right here: “Anyone who sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, should petition God, and thus life will be given to the sinner. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as a deadly sin; I do not say that one should pray about that. True all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.”

And many other places I have no interest is taking the time to point out to you .

Then you correctly stated, Revelations says “nothing defiled shall enter the Kingdom." then you make the absurd claim that, "It should be obvious that is not in reference to those going to hell, but those who are saved, yet still with many stains of sin on their souls after they accepted Christ or for other reasons."

What is obvious is that those they do not go to heaven go to hell because they is no other option mentioned in the Bible.

Don't you think that something as important as something like "purgatory" it would be at least mentioned!?!?!

Nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom of heaven. That is correct. It does not appear you have either grasped the reason for Revelations saying that, nor have you come to terms with it.

Incidentally, do you think the accounts of Fatima are all fabricated? Do you think there was no sign of the supernatural? If you think it was supernatural, then explain it to me. Was if of God or of the evil one?

Purgatory is mentioned in the Bible in many ways in many places. It is revealed to many saints and spoken of throughout history. I am curious where you think all non-Christians are after they die? Or even a great number of Christians for that matter? I am not asking you to judge anyone, I am asking you to guess. Do you think most are in heaven or in hell? I think most go to purgatory and then to heaven. I am not judging either, just guessing.

Wrong in the book of Hebrews we read : Without holiness no one will see the LORD. Your pope just claimed an atheist can be holy apart from G-d! Utter blasphemy! Talk about the spirit of anti christ, its here, folks! What does the bible tell us about the spirit of anti christ? That he will teach the exact doctrine you have just rolled out here. Salvation without the Cross. Utter blasphemy & teetering on the unpardonable sin because you are attempting to lead innocent people INTO HELL with these blasphemous lies. ( BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN! ) False teachers like you make my blood boil!!!!!!!!! - Jeri

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Nor am I interested in explaining Mary's perpetual virginity to you. You are not a very good candidate for discourse from what I can tell.

Jeri:
In other words, I know the truth so your false teaching isn't going to work. As to your claim of Marys perpetual virginity? That's a new one! Does she become a virgin over and over again like the 72 virgins in paradise will for Muslims? You guys ought to hook up! I see a future for Islam and the RCC. You're both living in a dream world.

Bible scholars throughout the world have agreed Jesus had brothers and sisters but as the Roman Catholic church claims infallibility they can never admit they were mistaken. That is why the Roman Catholic Church has yet to apologise for its participation with the Nazis and Hitler during WWII and afterwards when the Vatican assisted war criminals such as Eichmann safe passage to Argentina. Oh yeah. No apologies because the RCC is infallible. Gee. Wiz. I thought only G-d Almighty was infallible. What a silly idea. Wonder where I got that from? Oh yes. The Bible. Thanks - Jeremiah

All I can say is I am glad you are on "their side" and not ours. You are doing yourself and your mission a disservice.

I stand on the rock of Ages, Jesus Christ who IS the Word of God - you are standing on sinking sand - Roman doctrines of devils - the early christians in the book of acts were not catholic, dear. A quick read of the book of acts makes it very obvious they were spirit filled believers which today are known as evangelical church.

There is an element within the RCC - priests and nuns who are charismatic and have received the baptism of the Spirit - pray in the Holy Ghost - and know what they are up against in this hour. I keep those people in my prayers because they are truly in for a rough road ahead. A very rough road.

- Jeri

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

What makes you think it's either the Catholics or the Protestants that are correct on the matter?

There is a space between our death and our resurrection. You can call this place purgatory if you choose. In this place there is a separation between the righteous and the wicked. The scriptures described this place as Paradise/Abraham's bosom, or prison/hell.

Before the death of Christ, there was a gulf between the areas. The righteous could not mingle with the wicked nor vice versa. Christ ripped down the gulf. He preached the Gospel of Deliverence to those who were once wicked in the time of Noah and the Flood. The Gospel was, is, and will be preached to the dead so that all those who had no opportunity to hear of Christ in the Flesh, will have a chance for Redemption.

The Lord will redeem all the dead who will come to Him. He has already paid the price for their Resurrection.

The Bible decides. Which is why there is no such thing as pergatory and it is a man - made doctrine - not in scripture. The bible declares, Let the Word of God be true and every man be found a liar. ( who denies what Gods Word says or disagrees ) I say amen to that. - Jeri

 

[The Irish Ram]

And if the Catholic Church is the only church preaching purgatory, what of it? The fact is, the Catholic Church IS the only Church. The rest are referred to as “community of believers.” Sorry, but you do not get to go off and make your own religion and call it “the church.” Neither does Luther.
Purgatory existed before the time of the Incarnation if you want to ascribe to Jewish teaching, to answer one of your questions.

Thing is, Catholics AREN'T preaching purgatory any more. So were they wrong before, or are they wrong now? And aren't you going against your own church protocol by continuing to perpetuate the misconception?

Let's see if the rest of your statement stands according to the Word:
YOU:

The Catholic Church IS the only church. Others are called "community of believers"

CHRIST:
To the angel of the
church of Ephesus
church of Smyrna
church of Pergamos
church of Thyatira
church of Sardis
church of Philadelphia
church of Laodicea

Christ calls them churches.
What He didn't acknowledge is "The Church of Rome". They didn't make His list.

Catholics refer to the other churches as a "community of believers". Catholics "replaced" the word church in reference to other churches, to elevate their own status.

Sorry, but you do not get to go off and make your own religion and call it “the church.” Neither does Luther.

An yet you subscribe to a church that did make up their own religion to replace the importance of God's chosen, Israel, with their own importance.

I don't need to do that.
Christ is my religion. And doesn't require alteration.

 

[turzovka]

Thing is, Catholics AREN'T preaching purgatory any more. So were they wrong before, or are they wrong now? And aren't you going against your own church protocol by continuing to perpetuate the misconception?

You honestly think the Catholic Church would ever declare or even suggest that purgatory no longer exists? Stating something as false as that does not serve your case well, I must say. You must be talking about limbo? Ironically, limbo was never a Catholic teaching or doctrine of any kind. It was spoken of in fantasy terms to encourage the many peasants and faithful to get their children baptized asap because many were lapse on such a critical matter. But of course the media and the public are so sure Rome had this core teaching of the faith which they recently did away with so as not to look so silly to the world.

Not to worry, we’re used to being misrepresented.

Let's see if the rest of your statement stands according to the Word:

YOU: Quote: “The Catholic Church IS the only church. Others are called "community of believers"CHRIST:”

To the angel of the
church of Ephesus
church of Smyrna
church of Pergamos
church of Thyatira
church of Sardis
church of Philadelphia
church of Laodicea

Christ calls them churches.
What He didn't acknowledge is "The Church of Rome". They didn't make His list.

No it did not make the list. He did not mention Jerusalem either. On the other hand, St. Paul surely made a point to write a very fulfilled epistle to the Romans. Anway, if I recall, most of those seven churches in Revelations were being admonished for their sinful or lazy ways, so should that be a list one would want to be on?

Be that as it may, I have read where they have excavated remains of various early churches, and all were found to have one thing in common --- they all had an altar. An altar used for the bread and wine sacrifice where an ordained priest (only) had the authority to call down from heaven and Christ’s body and blood were made real in the form of bread and wine. Sounds very Catholic to me.

Catholics refer to the other churches as a "community of believers". Catholics "replaced" the word church in reference to other churches, to elevate their own status.

No, it was for more strict or literal reasons than that. These “churches” you refer to did not have apostolic succession nor did they have an ordained priesthood to administer sacraments. I do have to correct myself… out of laziness I tried to recall the term Pope Benedict XVI used to describe these bodies. It was not “community of believers,” it was as Benedict says in the following:

“According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called "Churches" in the proper sense.”

I might add that this: St. Ignatius of Antioch - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

In 107 a.d., during the reign of the brutal Emperor Trajan, St. Ignatius of Antioch was sentenced to death because he refused to renounce the Christian faith. He was taken under guard to Rome where he was to be brutally devoured by wild beasts in a public spectacle. During his journey, his travels took him through Asia Minor and Greece. He made good use of the time by writing seven letters of encouragement, instruction and inspiration to the Christians in those communities. We still have these letters as a great treasure of the Church today. The content of the letters addressed the hierarchy and structure of the Church as well as the content of the orthodox Christian faith. It was Bishop Ignatius who first used the term “catholic” to describe the whole Church.

I don't need to do that. Christ is my religion. And doesn't require alteration.

Yes, but “Christ’s religion” requires His Church to be His witness to the truth and authority here on earth. And Peter was it’s first pope. And Catholic tradition is far, far more critical in formulating dogma and doctrine than you might ever want to accept.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Stand firm Brethren and safeguard all traditions whether written or word of mouth."

1 Timothy 3:15 “I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

 

[The Irish Ram]

You did away with it? So you wouldn't look silly?
Therein "lies" the problem with religious dogma. You can change your mind and your book to conform to the times.
Christ said of His message:

Matthew 24:35 The earth and the heavens will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

See? Same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No adding, no taking away, no political correctness, no lukewarm, no adjustments regarding the times we live in.

Don't want to look silly? What will you negotiate away to keep from being hated?

Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake....

Good and bad churches are addressed by Christ in Rev. The Catholic Church didn't make either cut. It makes me wonder about their role in end time prophesy.

Had you not made such an effort to remove the Jew from your Bible you'd know exactly what Christ said about Jerusalem, in abundance. Enough to know that He will not be ruling and reigning from Rome when He returns. It is not the New Vatican that will descend from Heaven. Your Lord is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Saul/Paul, the Messianic/Jew, wrote to everyone. He ran the good race.

Jews built alters before Catholic was even a word. No Popes are mentioned in either Testament.

These “churches” you refer to did not have apostolic succession nor did they have an ordained priesthood to administer sacraments.

You are correct. Neither should yours.

What the Pope said was, "According to Catholic doctrine......"
What Christ said was, "church". (w/ angels no less).

Something else you never saw Christ do:
Pray to His mother Mary!
Christ said to pray to the Father, by way of Him.
You pray to Mary. Why pray to a creation, instead of the creator? Does she have the power to answer prayer?

As for the church, we, individuals, are Christ's church and it is we who are called to spread the Gospel.
Catholics teach Catechism.

Yes, but “Christ’s religion” requires His Church to be His witness to the truth and authority here on earth. And Peter was it’s first pope.

Christ didn't have Popes.

And Catholic tradition is far, far more critical in formulating dogma and doctrine than you might ever want to accept.

And disposing of it apparently.
Christ explained His role in our salvation, which to Catholics, must be considered Part 1. Why was He so silent about Purgatory, or Part 2 of salvation? How long before we make it?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Christ is sitting at the right hand of our Father right now. Unless our Father lives in purgatory, then you have your destinations confused.

 

[AVG-JOE]

If there were no purgatory, what would Protestants say about the billions of people who never knew or accepted Jesus? Are they all condemned? Or is salvation not just about faith? Or do most go directly to heaven? Neither of those answers sounds quite right or appears to line up properly with the nature of God’s justice and mercy.

This immediate heaven or hell upon the moment of death is just too suddenly drastic, and horrifying. Especially when one begins to ponder what merits heaven and what merits hell. Is there an age of accountability for an 11 year old pagan? I mean, is there an exact day he becomes accountable for his soul and actions? One day, if he dies, he is save, and the next day, if he dies, he is condemned? This cannot be. Consequenltly, there are thousands or millions of scenarios of humanity where the situations of saved or unsaved are equally precarious and unsettling.

Yes, we may very well be saved by faith

>snip<


Addendum 2:
I am in the possession of pages and pages of documentations from saints, from visitors from purgatory to earth leaving visible signs and dictating manuscripts to pious visionaries. The books are spellbinding --- and surely true. But I do not see a reason to publish all that here, especially since I have enough trouble finding the time to speak to what I have posted already.

Why not?

EVERYTHING beyond deaths door is speculation, opinion and faith.

It's your fantasy... play by whatever rules float your boat. It matters not for knowledge.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Quote: Originally Posted by turzovka View Post
If there were no purgatory, what would Protestants say about the billions of people who never knew or accepted Jesus? Are they all condemned? Or is salvation not just about faith? Or do most go directly to heaven? Neither of those answers sounds quite right or appears to line up properly with the nature of God&#8217;s justice and mercy.

This immediate heaven or hell upon the moment of death is just too suddenly drastic, and horrifying. Especially when one begins to ponder what merits heaven and what merits hell. Is there an age of accountability for an 11 year old pagan? I mean, is there an exact day he becomes accountable for his soul and actions? One day, if he dies, he is save, and the next day, if he dies, he is condemned? This cannot be. Consequenltly, there are thousands or millions of scenarios of humanity where the situations of saved or unsaved are equally precarious and unsettling.

Those who lived and died having never heard of Christ, and because God is 100% just, will be judged according to how they lived their lives. Their works will be judged.
Those who have heard of Jesus and decided to take their chance in court, at the White Throne Judgement Seat of Christ, based on their own merit will be judged on their own merit.
Jews will be judged according to the Law.
Christians are not judged. Christ was already judged in our place. There is nothing for Satan to accuse you of in court. His case against you is dismissed, no need to even show up.

Our religions pick an age when accountability might begin.
God judges a man's heart and knows when to hold us accountable for our actions. Then immediately covers us with the blood of Christ, IF we ask to be covered.

As for condemnation, If Christ told the truth, and He alone is the only way to the Father, then draw your own conclusion as to the fate of those who had the opportunity to avoid judgement, but preferred to rely on themselves and their track records, as opposed to no citations w/ Jesus as our attorney.

Christ didn't say that He was the way on account of a puffed up ego, but with outstretched arms and flesh ripped to shreds. Your sins were carried away by Him. God remembers them no more.
How much more merciful do you want God to be? Should Christ be crucified on a continual basis til you get it?

What is so horrifying about relocating to Paradise? That it is sudden shouldn't bother you any more than your birth. Read about Heaven.

We are made in the image of our Father. We are spirit. Spirits are eternal. Before God breathed on Adam, Adam was pottery.
The time we spend here is a vapor. And then your eternity continues. As you, not some ball of light, or ethereal butterfly. You. And you have work to do.

Where you spend the rest of your life is the choice you are given. Ceasing to exist isn't an option.
As brothers and sisters with Christ we inherit the universe and the earth spinning in it.
Those who weren't successful in court, will be found guilty of the sins they insisted on retaining. The prosecutor will be Lucifer, and He will insist that justice be done. And he remembers your sins. God is 100% just. Read about hell.

I can't imagine any other time when God was more in tune with Christ, than when He was dying on that cross for us. When He asked our Father to, "forgive them for they know not what they do." I hope He was talking about the big picture, and not just those who were watching Him die.

 

[AVG-JOE]

How do you reconcile the first line of your post with the fact that the best that the son of man can do is as filthy rags to the Lord?

If any Monkey can save himself through his works, doesn't that pretty much reduce the death of Jesus to its entertainment value?

 

[The Irish Ram]

tur asked about people that never knew Jesus. There are tribes of people who lived and died and never heard the name. Missionaries were sent to obscure places to tell them and usually ended up on the menu.
God is 100% just. How could God hold them accountable for something they knew nothing about?

Jews don't have to accept Christ. They have the prerogative of trying to prove that they never broke any of the 600+ rules that Moses gave them. Good Luck, and I sincerely mean that.

The others heard the Gospel, and spit in the face of God's Son, and His passion to save them. There goal is to prove they never committed a sin. Good Luck to them, I mean that sincerely.

I didn't say they would be saved. I said they would be judged. They will be wearing their sin to the courthouse, with no intercessor saying, " Dad, you can dismiss that charge of sin, that Satan has brought against Joe. I paid for all of them, on his behalf.

 

[AVG-JOE]

According to the rules I remember, the best works of man mean nothing to God.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Isn't that why Jesus had to die? Because ALL are sinners? How can God give some a pass based on their works when he insists on the blood of his son to pay the debt of others? Now THAT would be an injustice. Wouldn't that render the gift of eternal life 'cheap'?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You did away with it? So you wouldn't look silly?
Therein "lies" the problem with religious dogma. You can change your mind and your book to conform to the times.
Christ said of His message:

Matthew 24:35 The earth and the heavens will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

See? Same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No adding, no taking away, no political correctness, no lukewarm, no adjustments regarding the times we live in.

Don't want to look silly? What will you negotiate away to keep from being hated?

Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake....

Good and bad churches are addressed by Christ in Rev. The Catholic Church didn't make either cut. It makes me wonder about their role in end time prophesy.

Had you not made such an effort to remove the Jew from your Bible you'd know exactly what Christ said about Jerusalem, in abundance. Enough to know that He will not be ruling and reigning from Rome when He returns. It is not the New Vatican that will descend from Heaven. Your Lord is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Saul/Paul, the Messianic/Jew, wrote to everyone. He ran the good race.

Jews built alters before Catholic was even a word. No Popes are mentioned in either Testament.



You are correct. Neither should yours.

What the Pope said was, "According to Catholic doctrine......"
What Christ said was, "church". (w/ angels no less).

Something else you never saw Christ do:
Pray to His mother Mary!
Christ said to pray to the Father, by way of Him.
You pray to Mary. Why pray to a creation, instead of the creator? Does she have the power to answer prayer?

As for the church, we, individuals, are Christ's church and it is we who are called to spread the Gospel.
Catholics teach Catechism.

Yes, but “Christ’s religion” requires His Church to be His witness to the truth and authority here on earth. And Peter was it’s first pope.

Christ didn't have Popes.

And Catholic tradition is far, far more critical in formulating dogma and doctrine than you might ever want to accept.

And disposing of it apparently.
Christ explained His role in our salvation, which to Catholics, must be considered Part 1. Why was He so silent about Purgatory, or Part 2 of salvation? How long before we make it?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Christ is sitting at the right hand of our Father right now. Unless our Father lives in purgatory, then you have your destinations confused.

Well done.

 

[AVG-JOE]

"Judged" = "going to hell", doesn't it?

O.k. - back on track then.

Carry on.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

According to the rules I remember, the best works of man mean nothing to God.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Isn't that why Jesus had to die? Because ALL are sinners? How can God give some a pass based on their works when he insists on the blood of his son to pay the debt of others? Now THAT would be an injustice. Wouldn't that render the gift of eternal life 'cheap'?

Because some accept that Jesus Christ shed blood pardoned them and some do not. You must be born again. Now before you were born again - you could not help but sin as you had a sin nature. When you accepted Jesus Christ as Lord you have a new heart that desires to obey the LORD. Jesus said, if you love me? Keep my commandments. He never said He'd keep them for you. He said, YOU keep them. Get it? Before the Cross? You couldn't? After the Cross? You can. How? You must die to yourself ( not physical death - but to your own stubborn will vs. the Lords will ) , take up your cross and Follow Him. Does that mean you will never fall? Of course not. The most accomplished runner is capable of a fall.

The difference is Christians get back up. Though a righteous man fall down 7 times he will get back up again.

- Jeremiah

 

[freedombecki]

How do you reconcile the first line of your post with the fact that the best that the son of man can do is as filthy rags to the Lord?

If any Monkey can save himself through his works, doesn't that pretty much reduce the death of Jesus to its entertainment value?

About your second paragraph, St. James noted that "Faith without works is dead." Works should be the shining light that faith brought good things about, replacing childish things.

And since we're not perfect creatures, AVG-JOE, Isaiah's filthy rags comment will always hold true. That's why faith in God is a must, and why works just fall in line, each according to his or her gifts. Christ takes the onus off the small stuff like stepping on a crack and breaking one's mother's back or stepping on a line and breaking one's father's spine. Silly laws don't count. Important laws count, although even then, God picks. The very man who delivered the Ten Commandments to the Israelites was wanted for murder in Egypt for killing a guard who was beating his relatives, who were considered the least in the kingdom. It all rests on the benevolence and purpose of God. At least, that's what I think.

As for Moses' offenses against Egyptian laws, maybe it took someone who was remorseful for killing someone to know that act is a biggie in the sight of God. So God picks, but there's a reason he does so.

 

[AVG-JOE]

According to the rules I remember, the best works of man mean nothing to God.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Isn't that why Jesus had to die? Because ALL are sinners? How can God give some a pass based on their works when he insists on the blood of his son to pay the debt of others? Now THAT would be an injustice. Wouldn't that render the gift of eternal life 'cheap'?

Because some accept that Jesus Christ shed blood pardoned them and some do not. You must be born again. Now before you were born again - you could not help but sin as you had a sin nature. When you accepted Jesus Christ as Lord you have a new heart that desires to obey the LORD. Jesus said, if you love me? Keep my commandments. He never said He'd keep them for you. He said, YOU keep them. Get it? Before the Cross? You couldn't? After the Cross? You can. How? You must die to yourself ( not physical death - but to your own stubborn will vs. the Lords will ) , take up your cross and Follow Him. Does that mean you will never fall? Of course not. The most accomplished runner is capable of a fall.

The difference is Christians get back up. Though a righteous man fall down 7 times he will get back up again.

- Jeremiah

I feel so much better.

My faith in Christianity was shaken trying to imagine the God of The Bible letting someone in to heaven who was washed in their own works instead of the blood of Jesus, just 'cause they hadn't been properly evangelized.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

"Judged" = "going to hell", doesn't it?

O.k. - back on track then.

Carry on.

There are crowns - there are rewards - there is even going to be people who will rule over cities once the Lord begins His reign. Some will even rule over 10 cities. Imagine that. There is so much more than you realize when it comes to ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ. You cannot imagine how foolish these globalists have been. They thought they were going to rule this world and instead will get hell.

The ones they murdered ( the christians ) will be ruling and reigning and not only that but the LORD says we will have new glorified bodies that will never age. Here the illuminati is boasting of their fountain of youth they have discovered and God is offering eternal life as in you'll never age - ever. Are they stupid or what?

Why is it that those type of folks never want to acknowledge God. Could it be because they want to BE God? Hmmm....

 

[AVG-JOE]

How do you reconcile the first line of your post with the fact that the best that the son of man can do is as filthy rags to the Lord?

If any Monkey can save himself through his works, doesn't that pretty much reduce the death of Jesus to its entertainment value?

About your second paragraph, St. James noted that "Faith without works is dead." Works should be the shining light that faith brought good things about, replacing childish things.

And since we're not perfect creatures, AVG-JOE, Isaiah's filthy rags comment will always hold true. That's why faith in God is a must, and why works just fall in line, each according to his or her gifts. Christ takes the onus off the small stuff like stepping on a crack and breaking one's mother's back or stepping on a line and breaking one's father's spine. Silly laws don't count. Important laws count, although even then, God picks. The very man who delivered the Ten Commandments to the Israelites was wanted for murder in Egypt for killing a guard who was beating his relatives, who were considered the least in the kingdom. It all rests on the benevolence and purpose of God. At least, that's what I think.

As for Moses' offenses against Egyptian laws, maybe it took someone who was remorseful for killing someone to know that act is a biggie in the sight of God. So God picks, but there's a reason he does so.

To imperfections!

 

[AVG-JOE]

"Judged" = "going to hell", doesn't it?

O.k. - back on track then.

Carry on.

There are crowns - there are rewards - there is even going to be people who will rule over cities once the Lord begins His reign. Some will even rule over 10 cities. Imagine that. There is so much more than you realize when it comes to ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ. You cannot imagine how foolish these globalists have been. They thought they were going to rule this world and instead will get hell.

The ones they murdered ( the christians ) will be ruling and reigning and not only that but the LORD says we will have new glorified bodies that will never age. Here the illuminati is boasting of their fountain of youth they have discovered and God is offering eternal life as in you'll never age - ever. Are they stupid or what?

Why is it that those type of folks never want to acknowledge God. Could it be because they want to BE God? Hmmm....

Sounds complicated. Perhaps the 'work' that counts comes later in this whole eternity thingy.

 

[freedombecki]

How do you reconcile the first line of your post with the fact that the best that the son of man can do is as filthy rags to the Lord?

If any Monkey can save himself through his works, doesn't that pretty much reduce the death of Jesus to its entertainment value?

About your second paragraph, St. James noted that "Faith without works is dead." Works should be the shining light that faith brought good things about, replacing childish things.

And since we're not perfect creatures, AVG-JOE, Isaiah's filthy rags comment will always hold true. That's why faith in God is a must, and why works just fall in line, each according to his or her gifts. Christ takes the onus off the small stuff like stepping on a crack and breaking one's mother's back or stepping on a line and breaking one's father's spine. Silly laws don't count. Important laws count, although even then, God picks. The very man who delivered the Ten Commandments to the Israelites was wanted for murder in Egypt for killing a guard who was beating his relatives, who were considered the least in the kingdom. It all rests on the benevolence and purpose of God. At least, that's what I think.

As for Moses' offenses against Egyptian laws, maybe it took someone who was remorseful for killing someone to know that act is a biggie in the sight of God. So God picks, but there's a reason he does so.

To imperfections!

Sounds great! Except for one little thing. St. Paul wrote in the book of Romans when talking to some people who thought all responsibilities for behavior were removed by grace. He was pretty clear in saying, "What, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid." IOW, unfortunately the works revolve around a heart that opposes doing things that will cause someone else to make mistakes out of love the Lord teaches. I watch Miss Music, my dog. She's a regular Romper Room Do-bee. She will definitely get to heaven before me. *sigh*