Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

Great then present your evidence and not arguments for why you dismiss evidence.
I have cited what we know of Rome's governance of its provinces at this period and the fact that crucifixion was a Roman punishment.

If the crimes of Jesus of Nazareth were entirely religious, he would been stoned to death.
Let me know when you have a credible explanation for why the apostles began worshipping Jesus as God immediately after he rose from the dead.
They never did. You are making your claims based upon later texts composed post 70 CE. As I have previously noted even Paul in his authentic epistles that were written in the mid 50s CE never directly equates the Son with the Father. His Christ Jesus/Jesus Christ is the Lord of Glory, not God.
 
Ask yourself what you would really do if you discovered everything you believed was wrong and found yourself confronted after your death by a dog that told you you have it all backwards and there was never an all powerful being that created existence.
Where'd the dog come from? And how would he know anything about what I believed?

Your hypothetical would be more consistent with your beliefs if at death I never discovered anything at all. But to answer your question directly, then I would have lived a good life being enriched by my beliefs. It is my belief that God loves me and cares for me that gets me through the storms in life. I can only imagine what it would be like to live my life without believing my sacrifices served no purpose and it wouldn't be good. It would be quite depressing and nihilistic.
 
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They never did.
Of course they did. The churches in Paul’s letters have a robust historical basis. The epistles were not written as theoretical treatises; they are real pastoral correspondence addressing actual, physical communities across the eastern Mediterranean. And they predate the gospels.

So how did these come to be if there was no great commission after Jesus rose from the dead. You have no credible explanation for the beginning of the church and why the gospels were written as historical events.
 
I have cited what we know of Rome's governance of its provinces at this period and the fact that crucifixion was a Roman punishment.

If the crimes of Jesus of Nazareth were entirely religious, he would been stoned to death.
And the gospels explain this and are confirmed by the Babylonian Talmud.
 
You are making your claims based upon later texts composed post 70 CE. As I have previously noted even Paul in his authentic epistles that were written in the mid 50s CE never directly equates the Son with the Father. His Christ Jesus/Jesus Christ is the Lord of Glory, not God.
No. I am making my claims on logic. All the evidence fits together.

The first Christians - who were Jews - witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles and began worshipping Jesus as God after he rose from the dead.
  1. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
  2. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
  3. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy as described in the gospels.
  4. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
  5. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
  6. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
  7. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
  8. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
  9. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
  10. The empty tomb.
  11. There are no accounts the tomb wasn't empty.
  12. There are no accounts of his body being found.
  13. But the most important evidence is the dramatic change in behavior of the apostles who were hiding in fear as their leader was put to death by the superpower of the day. The change in their behavior cannot be overstated. They went from cowering in fear to boldly proclaiming Jesus is Lord despite being persecuted, beaten, imprisoned and ultimately put to death for it.
  14. Then there is the physical description of the risen Christ which deviated significantly from the prevailing Jewish belief of the day. If this was a conspiracy why wouldn't they just describe the risen Christ in a way that was generally accepted by Jews?
  15. Then there is Paul's dissertation on the gravity of believing Jesus is Lord which shows he had nothing to gain and everything to lose and he still chose to worship Jesus as Lord.
  16. There is no credible explanation that explains why the Gospels were intentionally written to present the resurrection of Christ as an historical event if indeed they are lies.
  17. There is no credible explanation that explains why the apostles began worshipping Jesus as God if indeed the gospels are lies.
  18. There is no credible evidence that the apostles weren't the first Christians to worship Jesus as God and were the founders of Christianity.
  19. There is no credible evidence that Christianity didn't begin immediately after Jesus rose from the dead.
  20. There is no credible evidence that the resurrection of Christ wasn't the catalyst for the start of Christianity.
 
Of course they did.
No they did not consider Jesus to be God. Read the authentic epistles.
The churches in Paul’s letters have a robust historical basis. The epistles were not written as theoretical treatises; they are real pastoral correspondence addressing actual, physical communities across the eastern Mediterranean. And they predate the gospels.
My emphasis.

Well you got one thing correct. And Paul's letters deal with his concerns about his proselytes falling away to what he deemed were false gospels as well as his responses to what appear to have been various concerns among those disparate and small groups.
So how did these come to be if there was no great commission after Jesus rose from the dead. You have no credible explanation for the beginning of the church and why the gospels were written as historical events.
Do you know anything at all about the history of your religion?

Christianity in the first two and a half centuries was entirely fluid. Different groups believed different things and had what they deemed to be "scripture" - many of those texts now form the Christian Apocrypha. Others were either lost, intentionally destroyed, or as with the Nag Hammadi library hidden.
 
My emphasis.

Well you got one thing correct. And Paul's letters deal with his concerns about his proselytes falling away to what he deemed were false gospels as well as his responses to what appear to have been various concerns among those disparate and small groups.
I got the timeline right. These churches corroborate the accounts in the gospels. The resurrection of Jesus is central to the establishment of Christianity.
 
Do you know anything at all about the history of your religion?

Christianity in the first two and a half centuries was entirely fluid. Different groups believed different things and had what they deemed to be "scripture" - many of those texts now form the Christian Apocrypha. Others were either lost, intentionally destroyed, or as with the Nag Hammadi library hidden.
Red herring. Not relevant to the timeline of when Jesus was first worshipped as God. It doesn't matter if there were different views. They had a hard time reconciling what they were witnessing. The resurrection is what clarified their beliefs. You are looking for ways to dismiss the evidence rather than following the evidence.
 
No. I am making my claims on logic. All the evidence fits together.

The first Christians - who were Jews - witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles and began worshipping Jesus as God after he rose from the dead.
Jesus of Nazareth was not the only Jewish Charismatic who could apparently perform miracles. Furthermore performing miracles and a belief in magical practices was commonplace throughout the ancient world, and in both the Graeco-Roman and Jewish spheres. It was part of the contemporary context. The use of exorcism to remove evil spirits, imprecations and invocations involving deities, divination, omens, and protective amulets, all under-laid the fabric of society. It was not therefore surprising that Jesus was regarded as a goētēs (wonder worker).

Nor of course was there any understanding of what we now term to be psychosomatic or psychological disorders.
  1. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
Who are these non Christian historians? Provide some names.
  1. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
So what? They are all Christian so it is unsurprising they all repeat the same narratives.
  1. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy as described in the gospels.
Again, the Babylonian Talmud was composed centuries after Jesus of Nazareth was dead.
  1. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
  2. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
  3. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
  4. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
  5. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
  6. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
  7. The empty tomb.
  8. There are no accounts the tomb wasn't empty.
  9. There are no accounts of his body being found.
Hardly surprising. This sect was a nonentity. The Roman state viewed it as a cult. As for the lack of a body the corpse was most likely thrown into a communal pit.
  1. But the most important evidence is the dramatic change in behavior of the apostles who were hiding in fear as their leader was put to death by the superpower of the day. The change in their behavior cannot be overstated. They went from cowering in fear to boldly proclaiming Jesus is Lord despite being persecuted, beaten, imprisoned and ultimately put to death for it.
What persecution? Or is this a reference to the "wicked" Jews in Acts who were allegedly always attacking and/or trying to kill Paul?
  1. Then there is the physical description of the risen Christ which deviated significantly from the prevailing Jewish belief of the day. If this was a conspiracy why wouldn't they just describe the risen Christ in a way that was generally accepted by Jews?
The gospel narratives are much later texts.
  1. Then there is Paul's dissertation on the gravity of believing Jesus is Lord which shows he had nothing to gain and everything to lose and he still chose to worship Jesus as Lord.
Lord but not God. And I hardly think Paul's epistles constitute dissertations.
  1. There is no credible explanation that explains why the Gospels were intentionally written to present the resurrection of Christ as an historical event if indeed they are lies.
Dying and resurrected gods were hardly unknown in the ancient world.
  1. There is no credible explanation that explains why the apostles began worshipping Jesus as God if indeed the gospels are lies.
  2. There is no credible evidence that the apostles weren't the first Christians to worship Jesus as God and were the founders of Christianity.
  3. There is no credible evidence that Christianity didn't begin immediately after Jesus rose from the dead.
  4. There is no credible evidence that the resurrection of Christ wasn't the catalyst for the start of Christianity.
Why is it that so many Christians automatically assume that challenges to their faith suggests that their texts were all lies?

These texts were written to preach and teach a Pauline idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice to atone for humankind's sin and the only way to achieve salvation was to believe that and be initiated into the cult by baptism.
 
Jesus of Nazareth was not the only Jewish Charismatic who could apparently perform miracles. Furthermore performing miracles and a belief in magical practices was commonplace throughout the ancient world, and in both the Graeco-Roman and Jewish spheres. It was part of the contemporary context. The use of exorcism to remove evil spirits, imprecations and invocations involving deities, divination, omens, and protective amulets, all under-laid the fabric of society. It was not therefore surprising that Jesus was regarded as a goētēs (wonder worker).

Nor of course was there any understanding of what we now term to be psychosomatic or psychological disorders.

Who are these non Christian historians? Provide some names.

So what? They are all Christian so it is unsurprising they all repeat the same narratives.

Again, the Babylonian Talmud was composed centuries after Jesus of Nazareth was dead.

Hardly surprising. This sect was a nonentity. The Roman state viewed it as a cult. As for the lack of a body the corpse was most likely thrown into a communal pit.

What persecution? Or is this a reference to the "wicked" Jews in Acts who were allegedly always attacking and/or trying to kill Paul?

The gospel narratives are much later texts.

Lord but not God. And I hardly think Paul's epistles constitute dissertations.

Dying and resurrected gods were hardly unknown in the ancient world.

Why is it that so many Christians automatically assume that challenges to their faith suggests that their texts were all lies?

These texts were written to preach and teach a Pauline idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice to atone for humankind's sin and the only way to achieve salvation was to believe that and be initiated into the cult by baptism.
And yet the first Christians who were Jews began worshipping Jesus as God immediately after he rose from the dead. You can quibble as much as you like but it all makes sense. They didn't worship Jesus as God for no good reason. The resurrection of Christ is central to the foundation of Christianity and it began right after he rose from the dead which is what the evidence shows.
 
Where'd the dog come from? And how would he know anything about what I believed?

Your hypothetical would be more consistent with your beliefs if at death I never discovered anything at all. But to answer your question directly, then I would have lived a good life being enriched by my beliefs. It is my belief that God loves me and cares for me that gets me through the storms in life. I can only imagine what it would be like to live my life without believing my sacrifices served no purpose and it wouldn't be good. It would be quite depressing and nihilistic.
I'm happy for you that you have something to lean on in times of crisis. I don't find it depressing to find purpose in myself.
 
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I'm happy for you that you have something to lean on in times of crisis. I don't find it depressing to find purpose in myself.
Good luck with that. But I wasn't talking about finding purpose in myself. I was talking about finding purpose in making sacrifices. Two different things.
 
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