Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

[Hypatia415]

In other words, instead of reading, studying, and researching what Paul's peers and associates recorded at the time, let's consider other possibilities two thousand years later? Why not take what those at the time said more seriously?

What do you hope to accomplish with your possibilities?

The answer to your last question is that we have nothing from the men who knew the Galilean Jewish peasant preacher and exorcist we call Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Hypatia415]

Do you believe scripture is inspired by God?

No but clearly ancient Hebrews did.

 

[Hypatia415]

Supposition. Did you read Paul's description of the risen Christ. He was either lying about that or it was true.

Why do you assume he was lying? Should all those who have various hallucinations or mystical experiences be deemed liars?

 

[Hypatia415]

So what? Paul's epistles and Christian worship of Jesus as God predates that. So again... was Paul lying when he said he met the risen Christ and made the resurrection the cornerstone of Christian theology? Because your "Paul imagined it" supposition does not hold water.

I disagree. Isaiah 53 foretold that Jesus is the suffering servant that bore the inequities of man.

You are free to disagree but that does not make your subjective interpretation correct.

 

[ding]

The answer to your last question is that we have nothing from the men who knew the Galilean Jewish peasant preacher and exorcist we call Jesus of Nazareth.

But you do have the historical evidence of when and why Jesus was first worshipped as God which validates Paul meeting the risen Christ and making the resurrection the cornerstone of Christianity. Paul had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Paul is a credible witness. The great commission really did happen and explains the formation of the early church. Jews did not abandon their beliefs face persecution, beatings, imprisonment and death because of something they imagined or dreamed. They did so because of what they witnessed first hand. The sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels - which make a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event - can only be explained by it is true or it all lies for the express purpose of perpetuating a fraud. There's no evidence of fraud, ergo it is true.

 

[ding]

Why do you assume he was lying?

First of all I don't assume Paul is lying. I believe Paul is telling the truth, but if it is not true, then the only possible explanation is that he was intentionally committing fraud. There's no other explanation that can explain the sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels making a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. If it is not true the sheer magnitude and tenor of the testimony in the epistles and gospels can't be written off as an accident or error.

Should all those who have various hallucinations or mystical experiences be deemed liars?

First of all that is supposition. You have no evidence to support that. Secondly, Paul wasn't alone in the great commission. There were others. Did they have the same hallucinations as Paul?

Is all of this a lie too?

Based on biblical accounts and historical tradition, Peter’s ministry was centered in Jerusalem in the early 30s AD, before expanding to regional missions in Judea and Samaria, and finally to Antioch and Rome. Key dates for his missionary actions include:

• 30 AD (Pentecost): Peter begins his ministry in Jerusalem, preaching to thousands.
• c. 34–35 AD (Samaria and Coastal Plain): Peter journeys to Samaria to confirm new believers (Acts 8) and later preaches in Lydda and Joppa, where he raises Tabitha from the dead.
• c. 35–40 AD (Caesarea): Peter visits the Roman centurion Cornelius in Caesarea, leading to the baptism of the first Gentile converts.
• c. 44 AD: Peter is imprisoned by Herod Agrippa in Jerusalem but escapes.
• c. 48–49 AD (Antioch): Peter travels to Antioch, where he interacts with Paul (referred to in Galatians 2).
• 49–50 AD (Jerusalem Council): Peter plays a key role in the Council of Jerusalem, affirming the Gentile mission.
• Late 50s–60s AD (Missionary Travels): Evidence suggests Peter traveled to regions in Asia Minor (mentioned in 1 Peter 1:1, such as Cappadocia, Galatia, and Bithynia).
• c. 60–64 AD (Rome): Peter travels to Rome, where he leads the church, writes his epistles, and is eventually martyred, likely in 64–68 AD.

Paul's missionary actions spanned roughly from the mid-40s AD to the mid-60s AD, encompassing three major journeys: the first around 45-47 AD (Asia Minor/Cyprus), the second from 49-52 AD (Macedonia/Greece), and the third from 53-58 AD (Ephesus/Asia Minor), followed by imprisonments in Judea and Rome, and further post-release travels before his martyrdom around 67 AD.
Here's a breakdown of his key missionary periods:

• Conversion & Early Ministry: Around 32-37 AD, Paul converted on the Damascus Road, followed by time in Arabia and Tarsus.
• First Missionary Journey: ~45-47 AD, with Barnabas, to Cyprus and Asia Minor (Acts 13-14).
• Second Missionary Journey: ~49-52 AD, with Silas, through Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Greece (Acts 15-18).
• Third Missionary Journey: ~53-58 AD, focusing heavily on Ephesus and then revisiting Greek churches (Acts 18-21).
• Imprisonment & Final Travels: Arrested in Jerusalem (~58 AD), held in Caesarea (58-60 AD), shipwrecked to Rome (61 AD), house arrest in Rome (61-63 AD), followed by possible travels to Spain and Crete before a final Roman imprisonment and martyrdom (~67 AD).

John the Apostle (son of Zebedee) had a long, multi-stage ministry timeline:

• Initial Ministry: Called to discipleship around AD 26-27.
• Post-Ascension: Active in Jerusalem and Samaria (e.g., with Peter, Acts 8) around AD 35.
• Council of Jerusalem: Present in AD 49/50.
• Ministry in Asia Minor: Based in Ephesus, supervising churches from approximately AD 66 onwards.
• Exile to Patmos: Exiled by Emperor Domitian, generally placed around AD 94–96.
• Return & Death: Returned to Ephesus in AD 96, dying around AD 98–100.

James the Greater (son of Zebedee) conducted his main missionary actions between the death/resurrection of Jesus (c. 30–33 AD) and his martyrdom in 44 AD.
Key details regarding the timeline of his actions:

• Active Ministry: Following Christ's resurrection, it is believed he was sent out to spread the message, specifically traveling to Hispania (the Iberian Peninsula/modern-day Spain).
• Leadership in Jerusalem: He was a, if not the, chief leader in the early Jerusalem church.
• Death: He was beheaded by order of King Herod Agrippa I in 44 AD.

James led the Jerusalem church from around A.D. 44 until his martyrdom in 62 CE, with his missionary actions focusing heavily on Jewish Christians and overseeing the crucial Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) around A.D. 49, affirming the inclusion of Gentiles, and writing his letter (c. 45-48) emphasizing practical faith.

Key Periods & Actions:

• Post-Resurrection (c. 30s-40s AD): Initially skeptical, James converted after seeing the resurrected Christ (1 Corinthians 15:7) and became a key leader in Jerusalem by A.D. 44, taking prominence after Peter's departure.
• Jerusalem Council (c. A.D. 49): He presided and affirmed that Gentile converts didn't need full adherence to Mosaic Law, a pivotal missionary decision (Acts 15).
• Epistle of James (c. 45-48 AD): Wrote his letter, focusing on Jewish Christians, stressing faith demonstrated through works, likely before the Council, notes Insight for Living.
• Leadership in Jerusalem (40s-60s AD): He ministered primarily to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, serving as a unifying figure.
• Martyrdom (62 CE): Martyred by Jewish authorities during the high priesthood of Ananus, as recorded by Josephus.

Focus of Ministry:

• James's missionary work centered on guiding the nascent Christian community in Jerusalem, bridging Jewish and Gentile believers while maintaining strong ties to Jewish tradition

Matthew's missionary dates aren't precise, but tradition says he preached in Palestine after Pentecost, then left for lands like Syria, Persia, and Ethiopia, dying as a martyr (around 60s-70s AD, possibly in Ethiopia). His Gospel was likely written in the late 50s to 80s AD, either before or after leaving Palestine, to preserve Jesus's teachings, with many scholars favoring a post-70 AD date.

Key Periods & Traditions:

• Early Ministry (Post-Pentecost): Tradition holds Matthew first preached in Jerusalem and Palestine to Jewish converts before departing.
• Departure to Other Lands: He traveled to Syria, Media, Persia, Parthia, and Ethiopia, but the exact date of this departure is unknown.
• Gospel Writing:
  • Earlier View (c. 55-65 AD): Some suggest he wrote his Gospel in Aramaic in Palestine for Jewish Christians, possibly around the time of Paul's ministry in Rome.
  • Later View (c. 80-90 AD): Most scholars date the Greek Gospel later, after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (70 AD), as it reflects a Jewish-Gentile Christian community's needs.
• Martyrdom: Believed to have died a martyr, possibly in Ethiopia, but the date is unknown.

In summary, Matthew's missionary activities spanned from the earliest days of the Church in Jerusalem outward, with his Gospel serving as a crucial record for scattered Christians, likely written in the latter half of the 1st century.

St. Thomas' missionary dates center around his legendary journey to India, traditionally beginning around 52 AD in Kerala and culminating in his martyrdom near Chennai (Mylapore) in 72 AD, after spreading Christianity to India and Persia, though exact dates are debated by historians. He established seven churches in Kerala and converted many before his death, marking the beginning of the St. Thomas Christians tradition.

Key Timeline Points (Traditional):

• c. 52 AD: Arrives in Muziris (Cranganore), Kerala, India, beginning his missionary work in India.
• c. 68 AD: Travels to Eastern India (near modern Chennai).
• c. 72 AD: Martyred (speared) at Mylapore, near Chennai.

Details of his Mission:

• Regions: Tradition suggests he traveled through Parthia (Persia) and India, establishing communities.
• Kerala: Credited with founding seven churches in Kerala, India, and converting families, including upper castes.
• Chennai: Preached and established churches, eventually martyred for converting royalty.

Historical Context:

• While traditions are strong, the historical visit of St. Thomas is debated by scholars, but the enduring St. Thomas Christian communities in India preserve this history.

The Church of the apostolic period experienced explosive numerical growth. Within a short time of its founding, the number of men who believed in Christ "reached nearly five thousand" (Acts 4:4). Green (1970, 13) states that ten years after Christ's resurrection and ascension there were churches not only in Jerusalem but also in Alexandria and Antioch. According to Bokkenkotter (2004, 18), by the end of the first century AD there were at least 40 churches in North Africa, Asia Minor, Arabia and Greece.

 

[Meriweather]

The answer to your last question is that we have nothing from the men who knew the Galilean Jewish peasant preacher and exorcist we call Jesus of Nazareth.

That's the answer to your last question? That we have nothing from those who knew Jesus? That's what you hope will make a difference? As there were accounts by people who knew Jesus....

Again, what is your purpose? Is it to dismiss Jesus from history, religion, and people's lives? If so, why?

 

[ding]

You are free to disagree but that does not make your subjective interpretation correct.

It's not subjective. It's based upon the testimony of the NT which is corroborated by non-Christian historians, the Babylonian Talmud and when the first Christians began worshipping Jesus as God.

It's your interpretation that is subjective. I'm not interpreting anything. I am reading what was written. The NT makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. You are the one interpreting it to be something otherwise. You have no credible explanation for when and why the first Christians began worshipping Jesus as God. You have no credible explanation for the existence of the massive amount of testimony in the NT that makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event.

 

[Hypatia415]

But you do have the historical evidence of when and why Jesus was first worshipped as God which validates Paul meeting the risen Christ and making the resurrection the cornerstone of Christianity.

The first followers of Jesus appear to have come to the belief that he had been raised and exalted into heaven. Even if we accept one translation and interpretation of chapter nine verse 5 in Paul's letter to the Romans as correct and indeed not all academics do agree on this, then even in that interpretation which contends that Paul refers to Jesus as God Paul does not equate his Christ Jesus with God the Father. This Christ figure was an angelic being that was divine prior to entering the world.

Later NT writers recontextualised this figure and interpreted it within the light of their own more disparate situations. We see the rise of new ideas such as Adoptionism, Docetism, Marcionism, Modalism, and various forms of Gnosticism. Among the "proto-orthodox" there was a gradual lessening of the belief that the human figure was an apocalyptic prophet and a move towards this figure being something divine that became human. This idea developed among those same proto-orthodox groups into the fourth century that this being had always existed and had always been equal with God the Father in authority, status, and power.

The differing beliefs doing the rounds by the early 300s and the violence and unrest that often occurred when opponents clashed led to Constantine convening the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to, at least attempt, to settle the matter once and for all. He singularly failed in that task.

Paul had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Paul is a credible witness. The great commission really did happen and explains the formation of the early church. Jews did not abandon their beliefs face persecution, beatings, imprisonment and death because of something they imagined or dreamed. They did so because of what they witnessed first hand. The sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels - which make a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event - can only be explained by it is true or it all lies for the express purpose of perpetuating a fraud. There's no evidence of fraud, ergo it is true.

That is all your belief. And what were these persecutions that the Jewish followers of Jesus endured? Can you provide some attested historical evidence?

 

[Hypatia415]

It's not subjective. It's based upon the testimony of the NT which is corroborated by non-Christian historians

Not all of them

, the Babylonian Talmud

A much later text

and when the first Christians began worshipping Jesus as God.

See my above reply.

It's your interpretation that is subjective. I'm not interpreting anything. I am reading what was written.

You do not precisely know was written because you no original MSS.

The NT makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event.

The texts in the NT were all written at different periods.

You are the one interpreting it to be something otherwise. You have no credible explanation for when and why the first Christians began worshipping Jesus as God.

See my above reply.

You have no credible explanation for the existence of the massive amount of testimony in the NT that makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event.

There is no testimony in the NT from any of those individuals who knew the human being we call Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Hypatia415]

As there were accounts by people who knew Jesus....

Care to name them? Paul never met the human being

Again, what is your purpose? Is it to dismiss Jesus from history, religion, and people's lives? If so, why?

Challenging preconceived ideas that are being presented as if they are attested historical facts.

 

[Hypatia415]

First of all I don't assume Paul is lying. I believe Paul is telling the truth

You are entitled to believe that.

, but if it is not true, then the only possible explanation is that he was intentionally committing fraud.

Not at all. People in the ancient world believed in portents and dreams and the appearances of divine or semi-divine beings.

There's no other explanation that can explain the sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels making a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. If it is not true the sheer magnitude and tenor of the testimony in the epistles and gospels can't be written off as an accident or error.

See above.

First of all that is supposition. You have no evidence to support that.

People nowadays still often hallucinate they have seen or felt the presence of recently departed loved ones.

However, people who have visions of divine beings and hear voices or believe they have been taken up to the third heaven would likely be considered today to be suffering from various psychological disorders.

Secondly, Paul wasn't alone in the great commission. There were others. Did they have the same hallucinations as Paul?

Is all of this a lie too?

Based on biblical accounts and historical tradition, Peter’s ministry was centered in Jerusalem in the early 30s AD, before expanding to regional missions in Judea and Samaria, and finally to Antioch and Rome. Key dates for his missionary actions include:

• 30 AD (Pentecost): Peter begins his ministry in Jerusalem, preaching to thousands.
• c. 34–35 AD (Samaria and Coastal Plain): Peter journeys to Samaria to confirm new believers (Acts 8) and later preaches in Lydda and Joppa, where he raises Tabitha from the dead.
• c. 35–40 AD (Caesarea): Peter visits the Roman centurion Cornelius in Caesarea, leading to the baptism of the first Gentile converts.
• c. 44 AD: Peter is imprisoned by Herod Agrippa in Jerusalem but escapes.
• c. 48–49 AD (Antioch): Peter travels to Antioch, where he interacts with Paul (referred to in Galatians 2).
• 49–50 AD (Jerusalem Council): Peter plays a key role in the Council of Jerusalem, affirming the Gentile mission.
• Late 50s–60s AD (Missionary Travels): Evidence suggests Peter traveled to regions in Asia Minor (mentioned in 1 Peter 1:1, such as Cappadocia, Galatia, and Bithynia).
• c. 60–64 AD (Rome): Peter travels to Rome, where he leads the church, writes his epistles, and is eventually martyred, likely in 64–68 AD.

Paul's missionary actions spanned roughly from the mid-40s AD to the mid-60s AD, encompassing three major journeys: the first around 45-47 AD (Asia Minor/Cyprus), the second from 49-52 AD (Macedonia/Greece), and the third from 53-58 AD (Ephesus/Asia Minor), followed by imprisonments in Judea and Rome, and further post-release travels before his martyrdom around 67 AD.
Here's a breakdown of his key missionary periods:

• Conversion & Early Ministry: Around 32-37 AD, Paul converted on the Damascus Road, followed by time in Arabia and Tarsus.
• First Missionary Journey: ~45-47 AD, with Barnabas, to Cyprus and Asia Minor (Acts 13-14).
• Second Missionary Journey: ~49-52 AD, with Silas, through Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Greece (Acts 15-18).
• Third Missionary Journey: ~53-58 AD, focusing heavily on Ephesus and then revisiting Greek churches (Acts 18-21).
• Imprisonment & Final Travels: Arrested in Jerusalem (~58 AD), held in Caesarea (58-60 AD), shipwrecked to Rome (61 AD), house arrest in Rome (61-63 AD), followed by possible travels to Spain and Crete before a final Roman imprisonment and martyrdom (~67 AD).

John the Apostle (son of Zebedee) had a long, multi-stage ministry timeline:

• Initial Ministry: Called to discipleship around AD 26-27.
• Post-Ascension: Active in Jerusalem and Samaria (e.g., with Peter, Acts 8) around AD 35.
• Council of Jerusalem: Present in AD 49/50.
• Ministry in Asia Minor: Based in Ephesus, supervising churches from approximately AD 66 onwards.
• Exile to Patmos: Exiled by Emperor Domitian, generally placed around AD 94–96.
• Return & Death: Returned to Ephesus in AD 96, dying around AD 98–100.

James the Greater (son of Zebedee) conducted his main missionary actions between the death/resurrection of Jesus (c. 30–33 AD) and his martyrdom in 44 AD.
Key details regarding the timeline of his actions:

• Active Ministry: Following Christ's resurrection, it is believed he was sent out to spread the message, specifically traveling to Hispania (the Iberian Peninsula/modern-day Spain).
• Leadership in Jerusalem: He was a, if not the, chief leader in the early Jerusalem church.
• Death: He was beheaded by order of King Herod Agrippa I in 44 AD.

James led the Jerusalem church from around A.D. 44 until his martyrdom in 62 CE, with his missionary actions focusing heavily on Jewish Christians and overseeing the crucial Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) around A.D. 49, affirming the inclusion of Gentiles, and writing his letter (c. 45-48) emphasizing practical faith.

Key Periods & Actions:

• Post-Resurrection (c. 30s-40s AD): Initially skeptical, James converted after seeing the resurrected Christ (1 Corinthians 15:7) and became a key leader in Jerusalem by A.D. 44, taking prominence after Peter's departure.
• Jerusalem Council (c. A.D. 49): He presided and affirmed that Gentile converts didn't need full adherence to Mosaic Law, a pivotal missionary decision (Acts 15).
• Epistle of James (c. 45-48 AD): Wrote his letter, focusing on Jewish Christians, stressing faith demonstrated through works, likely before the Council, notes Insight for Living.
• Leadership in Jerusalem (40s-60s AD): He ministered primarily to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, serving as a unifying figure.
• Martyrdom (62 CE): Martyred by Jewish authorities during the high priesthood of Ananus, as recorded by Josephus.

Focus of Ministry:

• James's missionary work centered on guiding the nascent Christian community in Jerusalem, bridging Jewish and Gentile believers while maintaining strong ties to Jewish tradition

Matthew's missionary dates aren't precise, but tradition says he preached in Palestine after Pentecost, then left for lands like Syria, Persia, and Ethiopia, dying as a martyr (around 60s-70s AD, possibly in Ethiopia). His Gospel was likely written in the late 50s to 80s AD, either before or after leaving Palestine, to preserve Jesus's teachings, with many scholars favoring a post-70 AD date.

Key Periods & Traditions:

• Early Ministry (Post-Pentecost): Tradition holds Matthew first preached in Jerusalem and Palestine to Jewish converts before departing.
• Departure to Other Lands: He traveled to Syria, Media, Persia, Parthia, and Ethiopia, but the exact date of this departure is unknown.
• Gospel Writing:
  • Earlier View (c. 55-65 AD): Some suggest he wrote his Gospel in Aramaic in Palestine for Jewish Christians, possibly around the time of Paul's ministry in Rome.
  • Later View (c. 80-90 AD): Most scholars date the Greek Gospel later, after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple (70 AD), as it reflects a Jewish-Gentile Christian community's needs.
• Martyrdom: Believed to have died a martyr, possibly in Ethiopia, but the date is unknown.

In summary, Matthew's missionary activities spanned from the earliest days of the Church in Jerusalem outward, with his Gospel serving as a crucial record for scattered Christians, likely written in the latter half of the 1st century.

St. Thomas' missionary dates center around his legendary journey to India, traditionally beginning around 52 AD in Kerala and culminating in his martyrdom near Chennai (Mylapore) in 72 AD, after spreading Christianity to India and Persia, though exact dates are debated by historians. He established seven churches in Kerala and converted many before his death, marking the beginning of the St. Thomas Christians tradition.

Key Timeline Points (Traditional):

• c. 52 AD: Arrives in Muziris (Cranganore), Kerala, India, beginning his missionary work in India.
• c. 68 AD: Travels to Eastern India (near modern Chennai).
• c. 72 AD: Martyred (speared) at Mylapore, near Chennai.

Details of his Mission:

• Regions: Tradition suggests he traveled through Parthia (Persia) and India, establishing communities.
• Kerala: Credited with founding seven churches in Kerala, India, and converting families, including upper castes.
• Chennai: Preached and established churches, eventually martyred for converting royalty.

Historical Context:

• While traditions are strong, the historical visit of St. Thomas is debated by scholars, but the enduring St. Thomas Christian communities in India preserve this history.

The Church of the apostolic period experienced explosive numerical growth. Within a short time of its founding, the number of men who believed in Christ "reached nearly five thousand" (Acts 4:4). Green (1970, 13) states that ten years after Christ's resurrection and ascension there were churches not only in Jerusalem but also in Alexandria and Antioch. According to Bokkenkotter (2004, 18), by the end of the first century AD there were at least 40 churches in North Africa, Asia Minor, Arabia and Greece.

To use a word, "Tradition". Nothing else.

 

[gipper]

The Jesus myth is based on the classic hero story that has been told many timers before the time of Jesus. All they did was add Jesus to this old myth and created religion. IN other words its all BS.

Joseph Campbell’s "hero story" (often called the monomyth or the Hero's Journey) is a universal narrative pattern found across world mythologies and religions. It describes the archetypal journey of a hero who leaves the ordinary world, faces a series of trials in a supernatural realm, achieves a decisive victory, and returns transformed to benefit their fellow man.
Wikipedia +1
Campbell first introduced this concept in his classic 1949 book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. He summarized the monomyth into 17 key stages, which are broadly broken down into three core phases:

1. Departure (Separation)
The hero is called to adventure but is often initially reluctant. After crossing the threshold from the known to the unknown world, they receive supernatural aid or meet a mentor to guide them on their quest.
YouTube·StudioBinder +2

2. Initiation
The hero enters the "special world" where they must face a series of trials, confront their greatest fears, and undergo a crisis or symbolic death. Surviving this allows the hero to achieve their ultimate goal, gaining a reward or new profound power.
YouTube·StudioBinder +1

3. Return
The hero must bring their newly acquired knowledge, treasure, or boon back to the ordinary world to share with humanity. By crossing the return threshold, the hero becomes a master of both the everyday and supernatural worlds.
Wikipedia +1

Cultural Impact
Campbell’s structural theory heavily influenced modern storytelling. Most notably, George Lucas actively used the Hero's Journey as the narrative blueprint for the Star Wars saga. Campbell's philosophical outlook and exploration of this mythology are deeply captured in his famous motto: "Follow your bliss".
Wikipedia +3
To explore Campbell's lectures, essays, and the ongoing study of myth, you can visit the Joseph Campbell Foundation.

But doesn’t your book the Talmud called Jesus a bastard and an evil man, and his mother a whore?

 

[ding]

The first followers of Jesus appear to have come to the belief that he had been raised and exalted into heaven. Even if we accept one translation and interpretation of chapter nine verse 5 in Paul's letter to the Romans as correct and indeed not all academics do agree on this, then even in that interpretation which contends that Paul refers to Jesus as God Paul does not equate his Christ Jesus with God the Father. This Christ figure was an angelic being that was divine prior to entering the world.

None of this has anything to do with did Jesus rise from the dead. I already explained to you that there was an evolution of perception of Jesus. It was after he rose from the dead that that perception changed to Jesus is equal to God, no matter how you choose to describe it; Son of God, Lord, God incarnate, God, etc. Everything changed after his resurrection. That's when Jesus was first worshipped as God. Christianity began because of the resurrection. Christianity began at the resurrection. It didn't begin later.

Later NT writers recontextualised this figure and interpreted it within the light of their own more disparate situations. We see the rise of new ideas such as Adoptionism, Docetism, Marcionism, Modalism, and various forms of Gnosticism. Among the "proto-orthodox" there was a gradual lessening of the belief that the human figure was an apocalyptic prophet and a move towards this figure being something divine that became human. This idea developed among those same proto-orthodox groups into the fourth century that this being had always existed and had always been equal with God the Father in authority, status, and power.

The differing beliefs doing the rounds by the early 300s and the violence and unrest that often occurred when opponents clashed led to Constantine convening the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to, at least attempt, to settle the matter once and for all. He singularly failed in that task.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection.

That is all your belief.

No. I'm not a theologian. I'm an engineer. I work through everything in a methodical, sequential and logical fashion. My belief that Jesus is Lord is based upon the evidence.

The first Christians - who were Jews - witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles and began worshipping Jesus as God after he rose from the dead.

1. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
2. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
3. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy as described in the gospels.
4. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
5. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
6. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
7. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
8. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
9. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
10. The empty tomb.
11. There are no accounts the tomb wasn't empty.
12. There are no accounts of his body being found.
13. But the most important evidence is the dramatic change in behavior of the apostles who were hiding in fear as their leader was put to death by the superpower of the day. The change in their behavior cannot be overstated. They went from cowering in fear to boldly proclaiming Jesus is Lord despite being persecuted, beaten, imprisoned and ultimately put to death for it.
14. Then there is the physical description of the risen Christ which deviated significantly from the prevailing Jewish belief of the day. If this was a conspiracy why wouldn't they just describe the risen Christ in a way that was generally accepted by Jews?
15. Then there is Paul's dissertation on the gravity of believing Jesus is Lord which shows he had nothing to gain and everything to lose and he still chose to worship Jesus as Lord.
16. There is no credible explanation that explains why the Gospels were intentionally written to present the resurrection of Christ as an historical event if indeed they are lies.
17. There is no credible explanation that explains why the apostles began worshipping Jesus as God if indeed the gospels are lies.
18. There is no credible evidence that the apostles weren't the first Christians to worship Jesus as God and were the founders of Christianity.
19. There is no credible evidence that Christianity didn't begin immediately after Jesus rose from the dead.
20. There is no credible evidence that the resurrection of Christ wasn't the catalyst for the start of Christianity.

And what were these persecutions that the Jewish followers of Jesus endured? Can you provide some attested historical evidence?

It's in the New Testament. Are you suggesting they lied? Because I don't see how they could have imagined or hallucinated that happening. I'm linking to a post which has a summary of the claims of the NT regarding the great commission. Feel free to address each claim with your explanation of how that came to be if it wasn't true.

 

[Meriweather]

Care to name them? Paul never met the human being

Care to do your own research....

 

[Meriweather]

Challenging preconceived ideas that are being presented as if they are attested historical facts.

Perhaps investigate historical facts before challenging them.

 

[ding]

It's based upon the testimony of the NT which is corroborated by non-Christian historians

Not all of them

That's horrible logic. By that logic we shouldn't believe the universe was created from nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter because not all scientists commented on it.

A much later text

That doesn't matter. It was recorded after the fact just like the gospels were recorded after the fact. All that matters is that it confirms the account of the gospels that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and leading Israel into apostasy.

See my above reply.

Your above reply doesn't say when Jesus was first worshipped as God. You have yet to put forth any explanation for how Jesus came to worshipped, when and why there is such a massive amount of testimony that states the first Christians - who were Jews - began worshipping Jesus as God immediately after he rose from the dead.

It's your interpretation that is subjective. I'm not interpreting anything. I am reading what was written. The NT makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. You are the one interpreting it to be something otherwise.

You do not precisely know was written because you no original MSS.

It doesn't matter. Claiming my beliefs are subjective is ridiculous. It's YOUR beliefs that are subjective because you changed the accounts without any evidence. I read the accounts as they are. You are the one making interpretations. I'm just reading what was recorded.

You have no credible explanation for the existence of the massive amount of testimony in the NT that makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event.

The texts in the NT were all written at different periods.

It doesn't matter. You have no credible explanation for the existence of the massive amount of testimony in the NT that makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. You can't explain when and why Christ was first worshipped as God.

It's your interpretation that is subjective. I'm not interpreting anything. I am reading what was written. The NT makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. You are the one interpreting it to be something otherwise. You have no credible explanation for when and why the first Christians began worshipping Jesus as God. You have no credible explanation for the existence of the massive amount of testimony in the NT that makes a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event.

See my above reply.

Your above reply doesn't address the fact that you arbitrarily and subjectively interpreted that Paul must have been hallucinating or having a spiritual experience when he claims to have met the risen Christ. I read the details of his description and the fact that his description did not conform to the existing beliefs of the day and see him as a credible witness. I'm not interpreting anything he wrote. You are. You interpreted that he was tripping on acid.

There is no testimony in the NT from any of those individuals who knew the human being we call Jesus of Nazareth.

That does not matter. This is what matters.

The first Christians - who were Jews - witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles and began worshipping Jesus as God after he rose from the dead.

1. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
2. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
3. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy as described in the gospels.
4. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
5. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
6. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
7. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
8. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
9. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
10. The empty tomb.
11. There are no accounts the tomb wasn't empty.
12. There are no accounts of his body being found.
13. But the most important evidence is the dramatic change in behavior of the apostles who were hiding in fear as their leader was put to death by the superpower of the day. The change in their behavior cannot be overstated. They went from cowering in fear to boldly proclaiming Jesus is Lord despite being persecuted, beaten, imprisoned and ultimately put to death for it.
14. Then there is the physical description of the risen Christ which deviated significantly from the prevailing Jewish belief of the day. If this was a conspiracy why wouldn't they just describe the risen Christ in a way that was generally accepted by Jews?
15. Then there is Paul's dissertation on the gravity of believing Jesus is Lord which shows he had nothing to gain and everything to lose and he still chose to worship Jesus as Lord.
16. There is no credible explanation that explains why the Gospels were intentionally written to present the resurrection of Christ as an historical event if indeed they are lies.
17. There is no credible explanation that explains why the apostles began worshipping Jesus as God if indeed the gospels are lies.
18. There is no credible evidence that the apostles weren't the first Christians to worship Jesus as God and were the founders of Christianity.
19. There is no credible evidence that Christianity didn't begin immediately after Jesus rose from the dead.
20. There is no credible evidence that the resurrection of Christ wasn't the catalyst for the start of Christianity.

 

[ding]

I believe Paul is telling the truth, but if it is not true, then the only possible explanation is that he was intentionally committing fraud. There's no other explanation that can explain the sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels making a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. If it is not true the sheer magnitude and tenor of the testimony in the epistles and gospels can't be written off as an accident or error.

You are entitled to believe that.

Yes, I am. I believe that because Paul had nothing to gain and everything to lose. I believe that because Paul gave a detailed description of the risen Christ that did not match the prevailing Jewish beliefs of the day. I believe that because Paul made the resurrection the cornerstone of Christian theology. I believe that because there's no other credible explanation that can explain the sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels making a concerted effort to show the resurrection of Christ an historical event. I believe that because the sheer magnitude and tenor of the testimony in the epistles and gospels can't be written off as an accident or error. I believe that because there is no evidence for a conspiracy. I believe that because there are no competing accounts. I believe that because the Babylonian Talmud confirms the accounts of the gospels.

Not at all. People in the ancient world believed in portents and dreams and the appearances of divine or semi-divine beings.

So what? Today some people think the universe has always existed and that in no way negates that the universe had a beginning. You are making an argument of supposition without any concrete evidence. You are working backwards from your belief that nothing supernatural can exist. You aren't objectively looking at the evidence. I am. So as crazy as it may seem, Christ rising from the dead is more believable than a conspiracy to commit fraud which has zero evidence.

See above.

I did. You have yet to offer an explanation that can explain the sheer magnitude of testimony by Paul and the gospels making a concerted effort to show the resurrection as an historical event. If it is not true the sheer magnitude and tenor of the testimony in the epistles and gospels can't be written off as an accident or error.

People nowadays still often hallucinate they have seen or felt the presence of recently departed loved ones. However, people who have visions of divine beings and hear voices or believe they have been taken up to the third heaven would likely be considered today to be suffering from various psychological disorders.

How many of them go on to found a religion that became the largest religion in the world? But putting that aside, that's supposition. That's you subjectively rewriting the account with zero evidence.

To use a word, "Tradition". Nothing else.

That's a major copout that should give you pause for concern. Your answer for why Paul wrote his epistles is because he hallucinated meeting Jesus. My response to that was to show you that Paul wasn't alone in his beliefs. How do explain the great commission if it never happened? Because saying tradition isn't going to cut it.

 

[BreezeWood]

I am telling you clearly that Jesus taught we were to make up with anyone who had something against us AND with anyone we had something against before we gave our gifts to God.

that's absurd, judgement is taught by jesus is on a case by case basis - what they taught was not to become what was offensive as being the goal of the offender.

faith for the desert religions is just who those who claim faith decide to chose as their leaders as opposed to any actual verifiable proof for anything they have faith in.

 

[BreezeWood]

I was taught mankind was born imperfect and an inclination to choose the ways of the world over the ways of God. Tell me why you disagree with this.

purely subjective and appealing for some people to degrade humanity to then worship their makebelieve cure all deity that appeals to their personal inclination than to humanity as a whole.