Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

[Hafar1014]

What strikes me about the Gospel accounts is the disagreement between Jesus and his contemporaries. It was over repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus insisted Sins are forgiven. Your sins are forgiven. (No waiting for his death or it would have been Sins will be forgiven.) His contemporaries with authority insisted he had no authority to teach any such thing, as only God can forgive sins. We see that the common people were amazed he taught this as one with the authority. This was an entirely new testament/covenant. In the past, testaments/covenants came with a blood sacrifice. They insisted Jesus cease and desist. Meanwhile, authorities maintained that the people should continue offering their sin sacrifices at the Temple. Recall at this time the Jew, for the most part, were a poor people--some extremely poor. Yet, offering their sin sacrifices at the Temple (where priests retained their share) was still required under the law.

Today, we are so accustomed to the truth that sins are forgiven, we may not recognize what a serious issue this was in the time of Jesus. Why did Temple authorities care so much that they sought his death? As it is today, the reason for destroying another is the threat to their bottom line/wealth.

Jesus insisted his authority to teach sins are forgiven came from God, his Father. His obedience to God came before the rule/custom of the day. Despite opposition from the authorities of his time, Jesus kept on teaching. Jesus sacrificed his life for the idea/truth that sins are forgiven. The authorities had asked about the blood sacrifice that came with this new covenant/testament. Jesus gave his own blood. Temple authorities insisted upon a sign that Jesus teachings about the forgiveness of sins came from God. Jesus said there would be the sign of Jonah. Three days after being crucified he rose from the dead. Jesus sacrificed his own life so all would know of this new covenant/testament: Sins are forgiven, paid for. No debt remains. He would be the final sacrifice. Mankind is redeemed.

Only victims can forgive sins not Jesus

 

[ding]

I therefore find it very difficult to comprehend that early first century CE observant Jews believed in a redeeming human sacrifice to atone for sin.

And yet that is exactly what the gospels recorded. How do you explain that? Conspiracy?

Have you read Isaiah 53?

 

[Meriweather]

Only victims can forgive sins not Jesus

No one is saying that Jesus was teaching, "Hey, no need to apologize to anyone!" Jesus was teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins. When someone regrets something they did to someone else, isn't it natural they want to make things right? Jesus tells several stories about this as well. Before offering any gift to God, we are to make things right with that person. We are speaking of those who are seeking God's forgiveness. Jesus taught/assured us those sins are forgiven.

 

[Hafar1014]

No one is saying that Jesus was teaching, "Hey, no need to apologize to anyone!" Jesus was teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins. When someone regrets something they did to someone else, isn't it natural they want to make things right? Jesus tells several stories about this as well. Before offering any gift to God, we are to make things right with that person. We are speaking of those who are seeking God's forgiveness. Jesus taught/assured us those sins are forgiven.

No kits natural that they avoid responsibility made easy by claiming Jesus forgive me so screw you. This is as fundamentally immoral as you can get. There is no requirement that things be made right. Just belief in Jesus or an indulgence.

 

[ding]

Only victims can forgive sins not Jesus

Isaiah 53: 1-12: Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Hafar1014]

Isaiah 53: 1-12: Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Who cares basic human morality demands an honest confession and the victim forgives.

 

[ding]

Who cares...

I care. Christians believe that God can forgive sins. Don't you?

 

[Hypatia415]

And yet that is exactly what the gospels recorded. How do you explain that? Conspiracy?

The gospels were written for fledgling Christian sects.

Have you read Isaiah 53?

Isaiah 53 (aka Deutero-Isaiah) is not a foretelling of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth. That Christians have interpreted as such does not make it so. The suffering servant of Yahweh and the victim is almost certainly a poetic reference to Israel. Words translated as "infirmities" and "diseases" are useful to express the broken state of the nation after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. The same word for "infirmities" is found in chapter 1 verse 5 describing the ravaged state of the country

The whole head is injured,

Hence at one level the servant was the suffering community.

 

[Meriweather]

No kits natural that they avoid responsibility made easy by claiming Jesus forgive me so screw you. This is as fundamentally immoral as you can get. There is no requirement that things be made right. Just belief in Jesus or an indulgence.

What are you talking about? I am telling you clearly that Jesus taught we were to make up with anyone who had something against us AND with anyone we had something against before we gave our gifts to God.

Once again, you make up things (Yes, bear false witness) against a faith that is not your own. Why not practice your own faith rather than making things up about other faiths?

It's natural to avoid responsibility? I find that quite unnatural, given my upbringing, given my faith.

 

[Hafar1014]

What are you talking about? I am telling you clearly that Jesus taught we were to make up with anyone who had something against us AND with anyone we had something against before we gave our gifts to God.

Once again, you make up things (Yes, bear false witness) against a faith that is not your own. Why not practice your own faith rather than making things up about other faiths?

It's natural to avoid responsibility? I find that quite unnatural, given my upbringing, given my faith.

No youre taught first there is original sin and you are born in sin when you never did anything, and second Jesus forgives not the victim. Its guilt threats and manipulation. Catholicism is even worse you are always in sin and must go to confession. You cant even talk to god you need a priest.

 

[Hafar1014]

I care. Christians believe that God can forgive sins. Don't you?

No get it in writing.

 

[Meriweather]

Isaiah 53 (aka Deutero-Isaiah) is not a foretelling of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth.

Do you believe scripture is inspired by God? Even if you do not, surely you have come across a writing or even a quote that may have a different meaning for you than it author even considered?

I agree that it most likely than when Isaiah wrote chapter 53, his thoughts were on Israel. I have no quarrel with that. Nor do I have any quarrel that Jesus was likely quite familiar with the passage and also saw how well it related to his own life. I will also bet there have been other Jews--and even Christians--who have found themselves in similar circumstances, even if it didn't end in torture and crucifixion. What child hasn't stepped in and took responsibility and therefore punishment for a sibling?

Isaiah may have had a single thing in mind as he wrote Chapter 53; he may have had another prophecy in mind; perhaps both. The question is, what did God have in mind when Isaiah was inspired to write as he did?

 

[Hafar1014]

Do you believe scripture is inspired by God? Even if you do not, surely you have come across a writing or even a quote that may have a different meaning for you than it author even considered?

I agree that it most likely than when Isaiah wrote chapter 53, his thoughts were on Israel. I have no quarrel with that. Nor do I have any quarrel that Jesus was likely quite familiar with the passage and also saw how well it related to his own life. I will also bet there have been other Jews--and even Christians--who have found themselves in similar circumstances, even if it didn't end in torture and crucifixion. What child hasn't stepped in and took responsibility and therefore punishment for a sibling?

Isaiah may have had a single thing in mind as he wrote Chapter 53; he may have had another prophecy in mind; perhaps both. The question is, what did God have in mind when Isaiah was inspired to write as he did?

The scripture is the work of man empowered by God which means its fallible and should be questioned. Nothing should be taken literally as the truth. Everything must be questioned. To do otherwise is to enslave yourself.

 

[ding]

No get it in writing.

In Judaism, there is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. The core belief is that God’s mercy is infinite, and sincere repentance (teshuvah) can atone for any transgression.

 

[ding]

The gospels were written for fledgling Christian sects.

So what? Paul's epistles and Christian worship of Jesus as God predates that. So again... was Paul lying when he said he met the risen Christ and made the resurrection the cornerstone of Christian theology? Because your "Paul imagined it" supposition does not hold water.

Isaiah 53 (aka Deutero-Isaiah) is not a foretelling of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth. That Christians have interpreted as such does not make it so. The suffering servant of Yahweh and the victim is almost certainly a poetic reference to Israel. Words translated as "infirmities" and "diseases" are useful to express the broken state of the nation after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. The same word for "infirmities" is found in chapter 1 verse 5 describing the ravaged state of the country

The whole head is injured,

Hence at one level the servant was the suffering community.

I disagree. Isaiah 53 foretold that Jesus is the suffering servant that bore the inequities of man.

 

[Meriweather]

No youre taught first there is original sin and you are born in sin when you never did anything, and second Jesus forgives not the victim. Its guilt threats and manipulation. Catholicism is even worse you are always in sin and must go to confession. You cant even talk to god you need a priest.

Don't you tire of making up your own version of what Christianity teaches? I was taught mankind was born imperfect and an inclination to choose the ways of the world over the ways of God. Tell me why you disagree with this. Or, do you truly believe that mankind was born to choose only obedience to God/the ways of God? Our baptism signifies that over this birth of the body, we are also born of water and spirit into the Body of Christ and therefore the ways of God. I am guessing you, who are not Christian, have no clue of what I am talking about. Baptism is proclaiming, while I was born into this earthly world, I will work to choose God's ways over the ways of the world.

There is no guilt involved. It is a declaration of, This is who I shall be! I choose God's ways. I choose to be in constant communication with Him (as much as I am able). I have never met a Catholic who doesn't talk to God.

How did you come up with the idea that if/when one talks to God, one cannot talk to a priest? And vice-versa? Is this how you treated patients (if you ever did)? Just make up your own version and work to convince them you were in the right?

 

[Meriweather]

The scripture is the work of man empowered by God which means its fallible and should be questioned. Nothing should be taken literally as the truth. Everything must be questioned. To do otherwise is to enslave yourself.

Questioned? There is a great deal between asking questions and making challenges.

Scripture should be researched and studied. What was the original author's intent? What did he wish to communicate to his original audience? How do directions of how one was to act then apply to how we act in a different time, place, culture? Do we understand the whys of then as compared to the whys of now?

If you wish to ask questions, ask questions. If you wish to challenge find a boxing ring and get it out of your system. Perhaps then research and study will have the greater appeal.

 

[ding]

Don't you tire of making up your own version of what Christianity teaches?

It doesn't appear so.

 

[Hafar1014]

Questioned? There is a great deal between asking questions and making challenges.

Scripture should be researched and studied. What was the original author's intent? What did he wish to communicate to his original audience? How do directions of how one was to act then apply to how we act in a different time, place, culture? Do we understand the whys of then as compared to the whys of now?

If you wish to ask questions, ask questions. If you wish to challenge find a boxing ring and get it out of your system. Perhaps then research and study will have the greater appeal.

A question is by definition a challenge.

 

[ding]

A question is by definition a challenge.

That's not what you do and you know it. You should be begging for forgiveness.